Possible Rifle Problem - Need Advice

I'm finishing the barrel break-in on my 30-06. Went out to the range, this morning, and shot the below:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3741/1...3010cb26_c.jpg
26-Oct-13 by beartooth91, on Flickr

The load is 47.4 grns of Varget, behind a Hdy 168 A-Max, seated touching the rifling, CCI-200 primer, and Win brass. The rifle has approx. 100 rounds through it and have yet to shoot a consistent group. Its not that a bad group concerns me. But, with the above, I put two pairs of shots side by side......almost like there's a shift in the point of impact.
A few months ago, I had an older, very experienced shooter check it, and the stock was a loose. This is the first time I've shot it since then. I shot two other groups with it, today, and they were unremarkable (not good). Anyone have an idea or is it that I haven't found what it likes yet? Thought I'd ask......

I'm also finishing the break-in on my 22-250. I had one decent group with it, this morning. The load is 35 grns of IMR4895 (which shoots well in all my other Savages, excepting the '06), behind the Hdy 50 V-Max, seated touching, CCI-200 primer, Win brass.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5482/1...eafb7592_c.jpg
Hdy_50_vmax_imr4895 by beartooth91, on Flickr

IMR 4350 or Check your tang and barrel for free float as those are the usual starting points. You did not mention your scope or the power. sometimes on higher than 10 or 12 power, parallax and the lack of correct adjustment comes into play.

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Originally Posted by stangfish

IMR 4350 or Check your tang and barrel for free float as those are the usual starting points. You did not mention your scope or the power. sometimes on higher than 10 or 12 power, parallax and the lack of correct adjustment comes into play.

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Scope is a Nikon Prostaff BDC 4-12 (I have the same on my other Savages, with one exception). Setting is 12x.
I do have some IMR4350, but, have yet to try it in the '06, but, its coming. I usually have success starting with the faster burning powders. The two pairs of side by sides have me concerned that something is loose. I don't have one of those "fat torque wrenches", so, I'm leery of stripping a screw.

ive had similar issues with mine when touching. I backed mine off 2-3 thousands and it helped immensely.

If the stock is contacting the rear tang or the barrel somewhere it will do this. It also could be shifting slightly in the stock, where maybe there isn't enough receiver contact with the stock, as in shifting back and forth with each shot, thus the two good but separate groups.

To test this, first make sure the tang and barrel are free floated. If they are, then you can shim the sides of the receiver with paper or thin cardboard (cereal box) with the receiver tightened in place. Try not to over shim, you just want to prevent side to side motion. My guess is that is what is happening.

Unless as also mentioned above, you are changing your cheek weld ever so slightly with the shots. This will cause the parallax issue mentioned earlier.

Oddly enough, one thing I recently read about reloads (assuming everything above is correct already) is when groups are open like that, push the bullet harder, ie more powder. If you're not at max charge, and show no pressure signs, try another .5gr or so. I know this really does tighten my groups with Barnes bullets.

I am pushing my 168gr TTSX to 2970fps from my factory 22" '06 barrel, and am getting right about 1 to 1.25" groups. I could probably tighten that up even more if I seated the bullets deeper, but that would make me reduce the charge a bit. So far I see no reason to change, neither have the two deer that dropped from the load.

IMHO that target is meaningless. means absolutely nothing other thabn you might be close to a good load. If it were me, I would first try other amounts of powders in .2g powder increments s.a. 47.0, 47.2 47.4 47.6 47.8 and 48. try different seating depths.... if not happy, try different powders, then different bullets. Maybe you've done all that, but you did not say so in your post. Also, be absolutely certain the barrel is cooled between shots. Should wait at least 4 minutes between shots.

Ok - question and comments regarding the last, two, replies, so I am clear:

1. What are you calling the tang? I am familiar with running a piece of paper under the barrel, up the stock. How do I check and possibly shim the tang?

2. Regarding the load development and pushing the bullet harder: With the 168 A-Maxes; since I seat touching the lands, I've been working up, from min, in 0.4 grn increments. Believe I'm still in the lower half of the range. Don't know if this is relevant or not, but, the few semi-decent groups I've had, have been with the 175 SMK's - same powders, seated .020 jump, but, maybe a bit higher in the charge range. Maybe I do need a bit more velocity. In my research of different '06 match loads; many are near max.

You dont shim the tang, you make sure its free floated. The tang is the back area of the action where the safety is.
Just slide a piece of paper around it and make sure its free floated.

You want full contact at the bearing surfaces only at the pillars and full contact on the recoil lug with no recoil going into the action screws.

Since you have two shots touching then the 2nd two touching but displaced, my vote goes to parallax or between the -2nd and 3rd shots you changed your grip, cheek weld etc or maybe the scope. but thats just a guess. It could be something with your rifle.

What kind of barrel and how long between the 1st group of 2 and the 2nd group of two ??

What were the groups like today ??

As I mentioned above free float your barrel and your tang. The tang is the rear of the action by the safety. I never put any bullet in the lands except for Berger's. The Hornady's can be loaded at factory COAL and shoot fine.

For beginners, if you don't have wind flags out when shooting groups, your wasting your time. Yes subtle wind shifts or even mirage changes could easily produce the problem you are seeing. The load not being in tune would also cause this. Many times when a rifle "two group" the load is too hot.

All I can say is don't worry about the tang, or the crown, or screw torque as none of these things would cause this type of problem. Do not wait between shots as time moves on conditions change, and even if they look similar they are not. Do not worry about the bullet being in the lands, find the place where the barrel preforms the best. Just because a scope is new or a name brand don't automatically mean that it is working correctly. Pay attention to parallax.

Pay close attention to trigger pull, and watch that the cross hairs don't move when the trigger is slowly squeezed. This would also cause this problem. Pay close attention to the bench, or what ever your shooting off of, if it moves the POA will move with it. Last try some dry firing, a flinch as a reaction to recoil would also cause this problem. Before you get too concerned about this problem see if it repeats, and have another shooter try the rifle.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-error-issues/

With all due respect

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...ophy-hunter-XP

QUOTE:
2. Regarding the load development and pushing the bullet harder: With the 168 A-Maxes; since I seat touching the lands, I've been working up, from min, in 0.4 grn increments. Believe I'm still in the lower half of the range. Don't know if this is relevant or not, but, the few semi-decent groups I've had, have been with the 175 SMK's - same powders, seated .020 jump, but, maybe a bit higher in the charge range. Maybe I do need a bit more velocity. In my research of different '06 match loads; many are near max.[/QUOTE]

RESPONSE:

I am no expert, perhaps you know more than me, but I think you are over analyzing possibilities. I have had good success with .45-70, 30-06, 270 WSM, 260, 25-06 and 223 simply by trying many different powders for each one till I get a group I like. To start, I load 4 each of the lowest charges indicated by the manuals, work up by 1% till I am at max load. Shoot them. Check for high pressure signs, of course. I take the best load, (group must be better than 1 inch before moving to next step, trying to refine charge. If I cannot get better than 1 inch initially, I try a different powder). Then try again in .1g (smaller calibers) or .2g (larger calibers) increments above and below the load that shot best initially. After that, I try various seating depths. Compare each group, go with what works. I really don't care why a particular rifle might like one load better than another. I don't care much about speed either. Of course, if I initially find 2 or 3 different loads that shoot well, I choose the higher load and work to refine that one before testing others. Also, just to clarify, if my initial powder choice does not give me at least one or two loads that shoot better than 1 inch, I try another powder before trying to refine charge amounts and seating depth, etc.

Also, for accuracy and load development I always shoot a cool barrel. A sporter contour barrel MUST be cool to shout accurately. This is a FACT that I have never known anyone familiar with light, thin sporter barrels of any type to dispute. I always shoot 4-5 foulers after cleaning before testing anything. I might allow as many as 40 shots without cleaning, but always fire the foulers after cleaning. I also do not worry about copper. I think the factory barrels actually need some copper fouling. I also have found new factory barrels need at least 100 rounds thru them before they start to settle down. To break them in, I shoot maybe 20 shots cleaning all powder residue between every shot, then do the same after every 5, then 10 shots. After 100 shots, I clean every 40 or so. Once I find a good load, I do not clean until I see accuracy fall off. Again, I always shout 4-5 foulers after cleaning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stangfish

With all due respect

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...ophy-hunter-XP

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And Why would this be gospel?
Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

QUOTE:
Also, for accuracy and load development I always shoot a cool barrel. A sporter contour barrel MUST be cool to shout accurately. This is a FACT that I have never known anyone familiar with light, thin sporter barrels of any type to dispute.

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Well how about an out of box Savage model 10pc, it has a slimmer profile barrel, and shoot like this without cool down period.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...IMG_0082-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...IMG_0080-1.jpg

Here is a five shot 100 yard group fired from a out of box Axis/Edge rifle in 22/250 with a sporter contour barrel.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psc3a840fe.jpg

I would agree that the Sporter contour barrels will heat up much faster, but to state that you can not shoot a fast string with them, or that you have to wait 4 minutes between each shot is a bit absurd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

And Why would this be gospel?
Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

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There's a lot of good experience noted in that thread. No BS in it that I can find.

Common belief that Savage tangs must be free-floated. Don't know why. All of mine are.

Barrels must be free-floated as well.

Flexible stocks tend to negate free-floating. Nothing should touch barrel if it is to be considered free-floated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Well how about an out of box Savage model 10pc, it has a slimmer profile barrel, and shoot like this without cool down period.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...IMG_0082-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...IMG_0080-1.jpg

Here is a five shot 100 yard group fired from a out of box Axis/Edge rifle in 22/250 with a sporter contour barrel.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psc3a840fe.jpg

I would agree that the Sporter contour barrels will heat up much faster, but to state that you can not shoot a fast string with them, or that you have to wait 4 minutes between each shot is a bit absurd.

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Your experience proves me wrong, then. Nothing is absolute, I guess. My experience is certainly different, however, particularly with heavier hunting cartridges such as 270 WSM, 308, 30-06. Maybe .223, 22/250 and the like are less likely to heat up as fast and or as drastically.

You know I have had savages that shot great out of the box, some not. One 223 that took 200 shots before it settled down then it would shoot consistently 1/4 MOA and then another 223 I have never been able to get to group tight no matter what. Same good accuracy load that shoots 1/4 moa out of one shoots 1"+ out of the other and I did everything you can think of to the open 223 shooter except swap barrels which I think is the problem. Had another one with a slow twist barrel, shot open with normal 223 loads no matter what even my best accuracy load, but shot 1/4 moa and under with a reduced bluedot load. It was a real nail driver with bluedot.

With the OP I think it is most likely technique or the scope, or he has just not quite found the right load. Actually for a 30-06 that doesnt look bad to me but its just one target.

I appreciate everyone's responses.
For all 5 of my Savages, I develop loads the same way:
- I pick a bullet and 3 or 4 powders, generally starting at min load.
- If the bullet is a secant ogive design, I start with it seated touching the lands. Most of the Hdy line are this type of design. If its a tangent ogive design, I seat with a .020 jump. For both, this is where I start out with and fine tune later.
- Generally one powder will shoot a little better than the others, then I take this one and start working it up in 0.4 gn increments.
- I also sort all my loaded rounds by concentricity. I use the magnificent Forster seater and rarely get one outside of .001" run out.

My other 4 Savages will consistently shoot 3/8" or better, with the right load and if I do my part. For the '06, I've tried IMR4064, Varget, and RL15 with the 168 A-Max. Interestingly, I had a couple of semi decent groups, several months ago, with the 175 SMK and RL15. Yesterday, I shot the 4 shot string, we're looking at, in 5-10 minutes. Barrel was warm, at the end, but, not hot. I generally shoot two foulers out of a clean barrel. Since I'm near the end of the break-in, I'm cleaning every 8 shots or so.
Could be my technique. Interestingly, this is my most comfortable & stable rifle of the bunch! Its the Cabelas exclusive, with the grey laminated stock, which was discontinued 1 or 2 years ago. I bought it, last year, on close out. It has a 24" sporter barrel. It is incredibly and noticeably stabler, on the rest, than my other rifles. I'm not sure why, but, suspect it has something to do with the laminated stock? One other item of note: its the only one of the five that isn't an AccuStock, though I'm not convinced that's related to the problem group.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

There's a lot of good experience noted in that thread. No BS in it that I can find.
Common belief that Savage tangs must be free-floated. Don't know why. All of mine are.
Barrels must be free-floated as well.
Flexible stocks tend to negate free-floating. Nothing should touch barrel if it is to be considered free-floated.

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This guy has 3 post,(All three in that post.) he has experience with 1 rifle, and after all his make shift fixes that he got from regurgitated miss-information gleaned from this site , he gets the rifle to shoot 1 moa, and that is great? This is worthy of calling expertise, or good information? He never shows a single target of this (I highly doubt) gun that constantly shoots .365 groups. (Which he contradicts his post. Which is it 1 moa, or .365 average groups.)
I am sorry, but I have gotten many out of box Savages to shoot under 1 MOA without any mods. I have played with and experimented with many savages and can tell what is fact and fiction. I can say without a doubt that all the stuff dealing with floating tangs, Crowns, and stock torque, is a bunch of hooey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

This guy has 3 post,(All three in that post.) he has experience with 1 rifle, and after all his make shift fixes that he got from regurgitated miss-information gleaned from this site , he gets the rifle to shoot 1 moa, and that is great? This is worthy of calling expertise, or good information? He never shows a single target of this (I highly doubt) gun that constantly shoots .365 groups. (Which he contradicts his post. Which is it 1 moa, or .365 average groups.)
I am sorry, but I have gotten many out of box Savages to shoot under 1 MOA without any mods. I have played with and experimented with many savages and can tell what is fact and fiction. I can say without a doubt that all the stuff dealing with floating tangs, Crowns, and stock torque, is a bunch of hooey.

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I have also gotten 1 moa from Savages out of the box. In every case, I have also improved accuracy by making sure the tang is floated, the action screws are torqued one way or another (until pillar-bedded) and barrel was free-floated. I don't think anyone said getting a rifle to shoot 1 moa is necessarily great. Having said that, I would also say that if he improved his rifle's accuracy by addressing any of these types of "issues" then that, indeed, is "great" for him. I am happy for him. I really don't care if someone else is "impressed" by his "good fortune" or not.

I have not been a Savage Shooter for long, 82boy, but frankly, I do not understand your attitude as expressed in this thread. Tweaking any rifle (custom or factory) to better suit any shooter, for whatever reason, is perfectly fine and appropriate. Calling him a liar, whether you have reason to trust his integrity or not is neither fine or appropriate.

Beartooth, my -06 shoots best with H4350.

Also, have you pillar-bedded it? I believe all wooden stocks should be pillar-bedded. Otherwise, the action screws compress the wood and you get various amounts of torque on the action as humidity and other factors change. You may have as good a group as you can get if its not pillared and bedded. That's the whole point of the accustock. The aluminum rails are there to approximately achieve, in an offordable, mass-produced way, what pillar bedding does for wooden stocks.

+1 - I was going to suggest that above. H4350 or IMR4350 powder.
Add to that Russian or CCI BR2 primers.

In the past whenever I am looking for tiny groups and having issues with a round, I start over.
I find a known accuracy load, powder and primer to work from, buy some lapua brass, Scenar bullets, weigh and sort everything and go from there. At times, just that has cut my groups in half.

Nothing wrong with what you are loading, just saying if you are trying to shoot bug holes, you might want to try better components, fire form, neck size etc etc.

I might check the bedding, won't hurt. I might also set up some loads as you have them in sets of 5 with the OAL set in .010 steps from touching the lands back to say .120 off the lands. With this the only changes you might find your rifle likes them not touching.
I always try my first loads at .020 off. Find a reasonable load then try the different OAL test to see what it likes.
Leo

This looks like a load issue to me. I don't ever do any load development with bullets into the lands and I have never had any bullet shoot better when jamned in the lands not even the bergers. The sweet spot for me has always been .025" from the lands. I start about 2.5 grains from max and work up in .5gr increments until the group tightens up and I play with seating depth from there if I have to. I will also go with the consensus and say to make sure the tang and barrel are floated. Invest in a bullet comparator to ensure c.o.a.l. from the ogive of the bullet is consistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stomp442

This looks like a load issue to me. I don't ever do any load development with bullets into the lands and I have never had any bullet shoot better when jamned in the lands not even the bergers. The sweet spot for me has always been .025" from the lands. I start about 2.5 grains from max and work up in .5gr increments until the group tightens up and I play with seating depth from there if I have to. I will also go with the consensus and say to make sure the tang and barrel are floated. Invest in a bullet comparator to ensure c.o.a.l. from the ogive of the bullet is consistent.

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+1
I noticed your load is at the bottom or min charge according to hodgdon. I started using a new load development process that Erik cortina suggest. I found it over on accurate shooter reloading forum. Similar to what your doing and what Stomp is doing. My wife's '06 shoots sub moa with rocks so I've been lucky. Haven't tried varget in it yet but found imr4350, rl-15, rl-19 have been really accurate with a range of bullets. I would start off the lands until you find a node and them tweak seating depth. Later you can float tangs,torque nuts and polish balls. What? I believe that somehow all those things will help but how much? Your group isn't a tang issue. Thays my opinion.