I just realized after installing the Weaver rail and Nikon rings P Series that it is still to far out so i was told its the length of pull. How can i go about cutting the stock? Should i take it somewhere or is that something i can do?
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I just realized after installing the Weaver rail and Nikon rings P Series that it is still to far out so i was told its the length of pull. How can i go about cutting the stock? Should i take it somewhere or is that something i can do?
Who told you that the LOP was too short for you? Are you a "short fellow." (Nothing wrong with that....but just a question.) If you used the "P" series rings...did you mount them backwards? (Backwards so the scope would be closer too your eye?) Here is how the P rings are suppose to be mounted. Click the little video tab below the first image of the first ring. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/815...op-ar-15-matte
Yes i did and the scope it still to far for proper eye relief. I can adjust myself but i'd rather feel comfortable than having to adjust my body/head fwd. Unless i can get another rail that extends back even longer!
Length of pull is important with respect to your trigger hand grip on the stock and how your finger contacts the trigger. It is the length from the buttpad to the trigger. It also plays a part in how the butt of the rifle contacts your shoulder and whether or not your shoulder is sore after shooting.
You should make sure you have the correct length of pull independent of your scope eye relief.
Once your length of pull is good, then mount the rifle to your shoulder correctly in whatever position you are most likely to shoot, all the while keeping your eyes closed. When you open your eyes, your scope eye should be aligned with the scope and the eye relief should be correct. If it is not, instead of moving your head forward or rearward, move the scope forward or backwards until it is good.
If you are too high or too low, you may need a cheek riser or higher or lower mounts/rings.
Savage rifles, especially the long actions, often need a long scope rail in order to bring the scope far enough toward the rear to have proper head alignment and sight picture.
Some folks don't need them, I know I do. Especially with modern, shorter scopes. This also has to do with your eyes. Your scope setup on a rifle may be different than my setup with the same scope and rifle. It all has to do with ergonomics and anthropometrics.
SO, pull length and sight picture/eye relief and scope mounting position are all somewhat related, but they are different. If your length of pull is correct, I would suggest that you do not cut your stock in order to get your eyes closer to the scope.
I have not checked the rifles LOP just yet, will do tonight! I think i definitely will need a longer rail perhaps to fix the issue.
Here's a pic of my Savage Carbine with a full length EGW picatinny rail mount. The nice thing about a full length mount is you have a bunch of options of where you can mount your scope. Plus, these are much stronger than a two piece scope base.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../photo11-1.jpg
Mine is the same but stock a lot longer. I'll take a photo once i get home!
I had the same problem with my Savage 110. My solution was to remove the action, level the stock and cut off 1 inch with a Dewalt miter saw. I measured (with help) the distance from eye to scope and estimated the distance I wanted my eye to be from the scope. The difference as you might have guessed was 1 inch.
Muzz has a great photo of what I have found to be a "general rule" for "proper" scope placement. The ocular end (the one you look through) is placed (forward/back) so that it is aligned with the center of the pistol grip with an ever so slight favor to the rear if in any direction. And of course, this placement is determined with the scope on its highest power (if a variable) as that is the least amount the eye relief will be.
But as Thomae pointed out, cutting the stock would be my LAST resort, assuming of course the distance from the trigger to the butt is not longer than your fore arm.
Good luck!
Scope placement will also vary depending upon whether you are aligned for offhand, seated, or prone shooting...each one has a slightly different cheekweld/head placement. My 6.5 swede, sporting a Bushnell elite fixed 10 power scope (rather short) has the rear ring in the most rearward position on the EGW rail, and the ring is up against the center bulge that contains the azimuth and elevation turrets. The rear of the scope is in the center of the left thumbhole cutout in my Boyd's thumbhole stock, so it is a little farther back than pitsnipes "rule of thumb, " but not much.
Each individual varies, and although we can all adjust to the scope position, if you adjust the scope position to the shooter, there is less tension and with a more relaxed shooter, generally you have a more consistent shooter. (YMMV).
...and yes, that is why we all shoot the best in our dreams...we are most relaxed. :rolleyes:
Okay here are the photos i took of the set up i have. The rail is definitely going back since it doesnt work with those rings which give me the greater offset, right now the rings are not bolted down since the screw doesnt fit, replacing it with a picatinny. Anyways also you will see the LOP of this rifle, measured mine and it came to be 13".
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...i/null-218.jpghttp://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../null-2421.jpghttp://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../null-1863.jpg
For me and I'm not a tall/large person at all but that set up would put the ocular bell in the top of my head, way too high way too far back, I would try lower rings, LOP seem about standard
Ed
Perhaps but as i stated before the height is not the issue is the eye relief. With the current way is set up the scope it is still to far away to have a perfect picture. I put this rings on just because it gives me an offset so i can pull the scope further back towards me, the other rings are your standard straight down rings which the eye relief was even worse.
With the scope as it is in the picture, and set on its highest (9?) power, when you shoulder the rifle with your eyes closed, making sure the buttpad is in the "pocket" of your shoulder, not on your arm or on your chest, and then open your eyes without moving your head, are you looking through the scope with a full picture (no " dark halo around the outside) and the reticle centered in the scope?
If I were able to do so, and if I could then move my head back at least a little and still have a good sight picture, then I would move the scope forward a corresponding amount.
Where are you located? Perhaps some one can meet with you in person and help you figure this out. Something does not seem quite right.
Well where it is at the moment and i do as you mentioned i do not get a clear picture, the picture has dark shades around it and the circle small compared to when i slightly move my head forward i get the clear picture perfect circle with reticle centered. Im in Miami FL
You need to focus your ocular. I can see in the pic that it is in the all-the-way-forward position. Aim it up at the sky or at a blank ceiling or wall and adjust the ocular ring till the crosshairs are crisp.
Well, IMHO the scope is sitting really high. I mean, you can't possibly get a good cheek to stock "weld" with this set up. I think you have to get regular rings that will bring the scope down so the objective lens (front lens) can get as close to the barrel as possible. I mean like 1/8" or closer. Then you can look at perhaps installing a thin recoil pad if (as you didn't mention the caliber) your shooting a low or no recoil caliber such as a .223 or .204.
Dave
Ohhh yeah i was waiting for someone to mention the recoild pad lol. Its a 30.06 so i think that rules that out lol
That setup is way, way, way too high. If you're getting a blacked out look through the scope that is why. There is no way to get a cheek weld with a setup that high even if you're 8' tall without a very tall cheek riser or a tactical style stock with a high comb. Those rings are designed for an AR that has a buffer tube and has no drop at the comb. Putting them on a rifle with a hunting stock just aint gonna work without bringing up the comb with a riser of some sort.
If you really must, shortening a synthetic stock is no biggie just cut her off. Depending on haw short you want it a couple of things may come into play after shortening you will have to reshape the recoil pad to match the new stock contour. This can be done by hand with a good flat file and some sand paper or the process can be sped up with a belt sander. Depending on how short you go you may have to relocate the sling swivel stud forward as well. lastly the areas that the screws secure to may have to be rebiuilt with epoxy if you take that much off. you can easily take off an inch or so without worrying about that last step.
I'll try back with the low profile rings the one i had on this rifle and see if that is the issue, might be and im blaming it on something else. Will do that tomorrow and post update! Thanks for the help so far fellas!
Unless you are some freak of nature, that whole set-up is wrong. Get rid of the dog leg rings and go back to low or medium rings. Then set the scope 2" forward of where it is now, unless you like black eyes...:eyebrows:
LOL! Good one SS!
YCastane if you are 5"7" the scope should be about 11" from the butt end of the stock. You can walk into any firearms store or Bass Pro or Cabela or Dicks Sporting Goods and get some free hands on help. Any range you go to will have other shooters who will help you as well.
That 1st scope setup is a pain without a little help. You are almost there as it is.
Yeah im 5'-11" and no is not the first scope i mount. Definitely know what eye relief is and how it should look. This doesnt, if im not mistaken i did try the regular rings but it was bad so i switched to this P rings to give more offset. This scope calls for a 3" eye relief. I'll see if i can take a photo while holding the rifle so you guys can see how far it is from my eye!
I am 1" taller than you, and I can testify that if you shoot that 30/06 with that scope set up, "you are going to need stitches"! For some one 5'11" and normal length arms, a 13.5" lop is plenty short. Also, 3"s of eye relief on a 30/06 is minimal. If you shoot an '06 prone with that little eye relief, your probably gonna get "scope bit"! We are all trying to be helpful here :)! ... Best of Luck-Jim
I know you guys are trying to be helpful and i appreciate the fact you guys are taking time to help me with this. Im just trying to explain this as best as possible. Ive shot that rifle with that scope before, once i got the AR i transferes it to the ar and used it there, now transfering it back to its owner the 30.06. Hopefully i dont come off as defensive since im not trying to be, just trying to answer whatever you guys ask so you can understand and better help me with this issue.
No problem Buddy! We are all "here for you"! And we are trying to keep you from " feeling any pain"! I am in Key West, in the "Conch Republic" and would love to "zip up there" and help you out, but it's 160miles, and I would have to "leave my homeland" and enter the "foreign country" of Miami ! To those not up on the history of the "Conch Republic", that is "tongue in cheek", sorta :) ! I"m sure we can help you solve this online.
1. I don't believe you need to shorten your L O P .
2. I believe, as pictured in your post, as mentioned above, that scope is positioned way too close to your eye, "NOT" too far away.
3. I believe you can mount that scope with "Low" rings, certainly with medium rings, to make it look more like the set up in the "Dave muzz" picture. I think this will solve your problem. Don't get frustrated :) and Best of Luck....Jim
Thanks Jim!! Appreciate the help. Heard from my mom this weekend there was some sort of lobster fest? **** i wish i'd had know lol!! What other food fest do you guys throw out there? Dont mind the drive for some good ol fresh seafood ;)
Yep! Lobster Fest is a celebration of the beginning of lobster season. So just drive down Rt.1, past Florida City and you've got 130 miles of the best sea food anywhere! There's alway's something going on, and it's always listed on Florida Keys.com! As the license plate says: "The Party Never Ends" :) !
ycastane....First: Yes, we are all honestly trying to help you, so don't get frustrated. Second: Whatever you do....don't try to shoot any Lobsters with a 30-06!! I know those claws are tough to crack.....but there are better ways!!
Dave
I'd agree with Thomae - you've mounted the scope a full 2 inches further back than I do for myself (11-11.5") and still you think it needs to be further back....... nope unless this is really for someone about 5' and 95lbs dripping wet - people vary but not that much. I'm thinking the rings are so high on that style stock your cheek is not even close to being firmly planted on the stock. By raising your cheek/head up off the stock it would naturally bring your head back, compounding the problem.
Ycastane- Just a thought here; since we cant get to you, or vice versa, in person, it might help for you to mount the gun in your normal / favored shooting position, and have someone take pics of you in your "fire ready position". Of course, double / triple check the gun is unloaded. If you don't have a person to take the pics you can probably set the camera up and use the delayed shutter release.
We all want to help, you and each other. I can testify that I've NEVER been on a friendlier or more helpful board! Brian
I just reinstalled the original tings it had, did the eyes closed thing and brought the scope back until i see full picture, this is at 3x rather than 9 and if im not there im like 1/16" away lol, thats at 3x when i increse magnification the full picture goes out the window. The rear ring its at its max and its hitting turret so it cant move any further, at least back! I'll post a photo in a few.
Yeah im going to take a couple photos of how is mounted and i'll also have my mom or dad take the photo since they are home i believe. Im right handed ao i guess photo ahould be taken from my right side!?
Uh, Dave...."Spinney Lobster" ! ! .... "No Claws ! a 243 will be adequate ! :-)
No 243 just a tickle stick or a rig to pierce them and thats it ;) and lots and lots a butta
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...zz/popcorn.gif Just waiting for your pics. Also glad to know your not pounding on those sea creatures with a 30-06!!
Once you have the gun mounted and your cheek weld and eye relief I'd have someone take pictures "on plane"- that is adjacent to- your head / shoulder /arm, from the right and left sides, and also the front. That'll give the helpful folks here a good idea of whats going on.
Again- I know its common sense and I'm not being disparaging, but triple check the gun is unloaded. Even an experienced person can sometimes make an error while concentrating on another aspect of gunnery.
Brian
Checked them and triple check them, except my 9mm shield, nothing else is loaded, specially hunting rigs. Parents arent home by the time i got home but i will post the photos later once they get here. Thanks for the help gents! Much appreciated.
Okay so here is some laughing material LOL. Here are the photos from the right, left and front. Also the scope is mounted with those rings temporarily but at 3x where the scope is that is where i have a clear picture, if i push it forward that picture is gone, keep in mind this is based on the way i am holding the rifle, leaning my head, cheek weld, etc which could be wrong, somehow i dont think half this forum is wrong and i might be right so there must be something wrong with the form unless..............
Anyways here are the photos......
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../null-1708.jpghttp://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../null-1685.jpghttp://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../null-1638.jpg
Looking at the pics and comparing to my 30-06 with a 3.5-10-50 scope it seems your scope is too far back. Slide it forward almost as far as the rings allow.
Really? This is a 3-9x40 but pushing it forward makes the circle instead ot large very small and fuzzy, just the same as if i magnify to 9x. Now im totally lost!! I need something to read on this to see what the hell am i doing wrong!!! Do you guys have a site or something that would guide someone through this process? I'll research tomorrow on google and aee if i can find something, perhaps i have it all wrong, i dont know anymore to be totally honest. Now im conpletely confused lol.
ycastane,
Thank you for the pics. You are not "square with the gun. Look at your shoulders in those pics. They aren't at a 90 degree (or ever so slightly less) to the weapon. You are angled too far back. Your head is too far back on the stock. At that position it is impossible to get a complete sight picture. Remember, you want to establish scope position at the HIGHEST not lowest power. The height of the scope looks great. Your "weld" with the "old" rings had to be on your chin. Square yourself up with the weapon. Try setting up in a prone position. Your shoulders will take on a "natural" 90 degree (or very close to it) angle to the weapon and you will then see AND feel the difference.
Thanks Pit! I'll try that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1LZKJmtbw
Here's a stance on the AR since you like ARs but you use the same stance on your Savage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9VTMzCiZtE
This youtube discusses the black ring around the image that you are getting.
Also notice how far his scope is forward in the rings.
Yes this is where i have the most issue because unless i bring it to far back i can see the black shadow. So now i'll concentrate on proper form.
Quick question, funny one but here it goes. Do you think muscle mass has anything to do with this issue, im not saying 100% but i have big shoulders and chest, therefor i think the rifle is pushed away more than the average Joe, thank the gym for this one. Just curious, the way i see it is like having a thicker recoil pad LOL.
Mach2 linked you to some good video's to watch and study. Just an observation of looking at your pictures is your head\cheek is too far back on the stock. I'm sure that's because your scope is mounted too far back. Also, if you study the second link, you can see how tight the shooter is holding his face against the cheek weld....and where his nose is almost flush against the top of the stock. That's where you need to be.
Dave