A question on material an action is made of

Hi everybody! I bumped into this a couple of times lately browsing the web that a stainless action in the long run will have somewhat shorter lifespan than a chrome molly one due to stainless steel properties, being softer one of them. Does this hold any water and if so what am I looking at in a real life scenario? In other words how many say thousands shots less would a comparable stainless action serve me than the other one? To tell the truth I don't even understand how exactly an action can be rendered inoperable in this case. Does a receiver tube keep on stretching that results in its structural integrity being compromised? Or bolt's locking lugs "drifting" (for a lack of proper term) in relation to the bolt's face? Ok, I think you got an idea where I 'm getting with this so have at it if you will:p

I have a little faith in modern metalurgy and believe you will be replacing bolt head before you wear out an action. The stainless used is martensitic and is harder than austenitic stainless. Keep it clean and lubed and avoid shooting the monster mags and everything will be fine.

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Originally Posted by dirtdigger

Hi everybody! I bumped into this a couple of times lately browsing the web that a stainless action in the long run will have somewhat shorter lifespan than a chrome molly one due to stainless steel properties, being softer one of them. Does this hold any water and if so what am I looking at in a real life scenario? :p

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To start, this is total BS. I doubt you will find a shooter that could ever wear out an action, regardless of the material they are made out of. An action can be damaged due to improper care, I.e. improper maintenance, (cleaning, lubing) and abuse.(Hot loads, doing things the action was not meant to do.) Since this is a Savage site, lets look at the savage design. The Savage design has a rear baffle, that handles primary extraction. If this part could ever wear it could easily be replaced. With hot loads there is a possibility of lug set back, but a good machinist could rectify this problem. There is no stretching involved in the action, as all the force is absorbed into the lugs, and majority of the pressure is handled by the barrel. I have Savage actions that have gone through many barrels, with the average of at least 2000 rounds on each barrel, and there is no wear showing on the action. Were talking in excess of 10,000 rounds on an action.

dirtdigger: I think the idea that you can wear out a bolt action rifle action is delusional. I have had a lot of older rifles over the last 45 years...like WWI era, and have not got close to seeing one that was "worn out". I have several old S&W revolvers that are over 130 years old, and after a good cleaning to remove the old grease and dirt, they function like new. I have shot several of them, have been for decades with no problems.

One of my favorite old bolt actions is my Czech Vz24 Romanian Contract Mauser 98, built in 1940. It has no blue left at all, has pits and dings all over it. The action is smooth as glass, better than many modern - new - bolt rifles.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...psc7d6fe96.jpg

You will wear out your arm before you wear out a bolt action rifle.


mark

I call BS too. I'm no metallurgist and don't claim to be an expert but I would think the stainless action would be stronger. Stainless steel has chrome and nickel in it to make it rust resistant. These metals are also very hard and thus make the steel harder. I guess maybe that could make it more brittle than regular carbon steel and maybe that's what someone is getting at. However, as has already been mentioned, as long as you're not overloading your ammo, and don't have a thick film of oil in the chamber to keep the brass from gripping the chamber wall, either should be fine.

Nickle is ductile where chromium is not. Both metals are hard and corrosion resistant. The stainless that is used I believe is 410. This is pretty tough stuff. I spent the last three days cutting wear rings and throttle bushings out of it. Hard to get it to break chips withough wearing out the tools prety quick. Gets a purdy finish though.

I think the CM vs stainless argument is left over from when S&W had problems with their early stainless revolvers having galling issues (the Model 66 if I remember). It was a manufacturing issue with heat treatment if memory serves. That was all sorted out 25-30 years ago.

There is always the potential for galling with stainless threads. Most modern actions are 416 which has just a bit more alloying elements than 410. Some custom actions are 17-4PH, which is probably superior to 416. However, the comments generally are true. Do not run stainless actions dry. Ideally use a good lubricant. Something containing Moly or Tungsten Disulphide are the best (on the bolt and on barrel threads) but provided you do not operate it without any lube at all (some people use brake clean to remove all lubricant) it will last considerably longer than any of us. With a Savage, wear on the lugs can be corrected by re-headspacing the barrel, but I have yet to hear of this being needed.

It is anyway a bad idea to run a CM receiver dry, not least because it will rust very quickly.

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Originally Posted by jbjh

I think the CM vs stainless argument is left over from when S&W had problems with their early stainless revolvers having galling issues (the Model 66 if I remember). It was a manufacturing issue with heat treatment if memory serves. That was all sorted out 25-30 years ago.

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I knew most stainless barrels were made of 416 but always heard that the receivers were something harder/stronger than it. May just the heat treatment does that and they're made of 416 too. +1 on the galling. I've got a big tub of anti-seize grease that I put on the threads of a barrel before I install it to keep it from galling. I usually use some type of moly grease on the backs of the locking lugs, cocking cam, and extraction cam. About any good automotive grease works well. Also keep a little coat/film of oil on the bolt body itself to keep it lubed as it slides in the receiver.

410 does not have enough chrome to prevent staining. I have 2 plates out on the farm which are 410 stainless and they are both nice and brown. No pitting or flaking oxide, but brown none the less. Take a look at the muffler on your car. Unless it is aluminized, it will be 409 and nice and brown (and probably crusty). Of course a muffler has a much harsher life than a rifle, but it doesn't even look stainless, probably didnt the day you picked the car up in the showroom.

Oberermyer says he uses low sulpher 416R or 416RS on his barrels. I'm sure that is mimiced throuout the industry. Not sure of the material of the action though.