Barrel woes -- Need advice.

A few months back, November/Decemeber -- I purchased a 110BA LE that was direct from Savage.

I had issues with the rifle from the get-go -- Accuracy was off, all over the place 3,4 moa...The rifle wasn't feeding properly...Accutrigger issues...

Savage recommended I go to a Smith in my area so, I did.

Come to find out the recoil lug from Savage was a horribly thin, decrepit piece of metal that was actually causing 99% of my issues, it was also ground down at a pretty heavy angle...So, I made the decision for my smith to replace it.

Fast forward to now -- Purchased an XLR stock, sold the old chassis...Wanted a better accutrigger so, upgraded by a gentleman that had a custom and was trading out for a Timney...

Come to find out, the threads are crooked so, the barrel sits at an angle and the recoil lug was ground out, originally so that the barrel would sit "true" on the rifle.

This is a stock Savage barrel, I've done nothing but, add a brake...

My question at this point is, what can I do? -- It's clear that either the receiver OR the Barrel's threads are crooked because the barrel sits at about a 190* angle...

I have 0 intentions of shooting it as is however, in my discussions with Savage, I'd have to send the entire rifle which, I don't have at this point.

*I should note that, I do have another barrel coming, it's currently getting melonited -- However, it would be nice to solve the threading issue prior to that barrel arriving.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Hey sorry for your woes, try and find out if it is the barrel threads or they action itself, and if things are that bad you may have to buy a chassis to send it back, but you can always sell it when this is all sorted out, it would almost be better if it was the barrel, so then all you would have to do is buy one and the one you have you could turn into a small shank, and sell it to absorb some of the cost, but if it is they action you are going to have to reconstruct it, to be able to get savage to honor it, once again you can sell the parts when this is history.

Dean

Unfortunately, buying a new chassis already costs more than the barrel.

Let's be honest, I can get a new barrel for $300-$400...A new chassis is easily $500-$600...A new action will run me $500-$600 as well...

At the end of the day, it's a Savage issue but, I have a feeling I'm stuck with it so, we'll see -- I'll post an update when we find out what's going on.

Not to long ago some one stated their barrel was way off to one side of the stock, and Jim from Northland reported changing the barrel nut can help the problem. Seems some are out of square.Why not give him a call and ask, the nut is only around $30 might be a cheap fix.

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Originally Posted by rjtfroggy

Not to long ago some one stated their barrel was way off to one side of the stock, and Jim from Northland reported changing the barrel nut can help the problem. Seems some are out of square.Why not give him a call and ask, the nut is only around $30 might be a cheap fix.

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Like in the other thread where Jim Briggs made that recommendation, it's just as wrong here as it was there. Call Savage, ask for Paul Smarrelli who's the new head of Customer Service and explain to him what's going on and that it's now looking like the action threads were machined out of alignment with the centerline of the action. Fred recently had to sent back a Target Action for this very reason, and given this account and the one in that other thread it's starting to look like they may have had an entire batch of bad actions make it out to the customers.

All the factory recoil lugs have a slight taper to them, and unless the mating surface on the barrel nut is 10-20 thousands out of square from the threads (usually they're only 0.002-0.005" at most) it's not going to cause the barrel to be so offset that it's noticeable 12" down the barrel at the end of the stock. It's simple geometry.

This is the only viable fix (Savage replacing the action with a new one) as the only other option is to ream out and recut the threads in the action which will have to be a larger size, and as a result no factory or aftermarket pre-fit barrel would fit it.

Not for nothing, but you would expect that kind of thing on an $300.00 Axis or a Stevens, not a $2000.00 BA platform.

Dean

I do realize that Jim Baker feels his comments are correct. If you care to follow this link you can read the story about the Savage with the bad barrel nut for yourselves.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ind...97#msg36212897

Jim Briggs
NSSW

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Originally Posted by northlander

I do realize that Jim Baker feels his comments are correct. If you care to follow this link you can read the story about the Savage with the bad barrel nut for yourselves.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ind...97#msg36212897

Jim Briggs
NSSW

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All it says is page cannot be displayed.

Pat, they are down for maintenance.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

All it says is page cannot be displayed.

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You broke the internet!

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

Like in the other thread where Jim Briggs made that recommendation, it's just as wrong here as it was there. Call Savage, ask for Paul Smarrelli who's the new head of Customer Service and explain to him what's going on and that it's now looking like the action threads were machined out of alignment with the centerline of the action. Fred recently had to sent back a Target Action for this very reason, and given this account and the one in that other thread it's starting to look like they may have had an entire batch of bad actions make it out to the customers.

All the factory recoil lugs have a slight taper to them, and unless the mating surface on the barrel nut is 10-20 thousands out of square from the threads (usually they're only 0.002-0.005" at most) it's not going to cause the barrel to be so offset that it's noticeable 12" down the barrel at the end of the stock. It's simple geometry.

This is the only viable fix (Savage replacing the action with a new one) as the only other option is to ream out and recut the threads in the action which will have to be a larger size, and as a result no factory or aftermarket pre-fit barrel would fit it.

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I'm keeping this as a final resort...In calling around and speaking with a few smiths that specialize in Savage -- The barrel nut situation makes some good sense...To heat treat the nut and the entire process is a bit beyond me but, that was the overall consensus.

These rifles were ordered as part of a package, I know we received 5 but, of the 5, 3 are having the exact same issues I am, all are worlds apart in Serial #s.

Mine is at a 190* angle, downward -- The second rifle is at a 190* angle upward and the third is the same down and to the right.

I'm really hoping it is just a nut issue and not a thread issue -- However, if it is, I thank you for this post and will definitely be giving them a call.

We'll have to see -- Waiting for the nuts...Keeping my fingers crossed.

Thank you gentleman -- Will keep you all updated @ Thanks to Jim for the information/nuts.

I've seen a lot of nuts in my day, but one that is 10 degrees out of square.....not bloody likely. If you knew how they were made, you'd know that is an impossibility. The thick recoil lugs used on the BA and the target actions are surface ground, and I've never ran across one that was more than .0002" (two tenths of a thousandth) of being perfectly flat. Me thinks your receiver is outa whack.

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Originally Posted by din

You broke the internet!

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Now I am peo'd. I cant do anything now!

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

I've seen a lot of nuts in my day, but one that is 10 degrees out of square.....not bloody likely. If you knew how they were made, you'd know that is an impossibility. The thick recoil lugs used on the BA and the target actions are surface ground, and I've never ran across one that was more than .0002" (two tenths of a thousandth) of being perfectly flat. Me thinks your receiver is outa whack.

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Thick recoil lug?

No. -- Not by a long shot.

These were thin, decrepit, ground down and twisted...The lug we pulled from my rifle wasn't flat, was incredibly thin and absolutely scary.

The lug we got from Brownells was twice the thickness, flat and had 0 issues about it.

Forgot that I had actual pictures of this.

I only have *AFTER* pictures.

This is my Savage 10BA LE in an XLR stock -- Prior to changing the recoil lug, this barrel was straight 100% but, as I mentioned, I was having extreme accuracy issues after the first shot so my Smith swapped it out...This picture is immediately AFTER the swap when my Smith made me aware that I "may" have an issue.

At first, we both thought it was the stock but, alas, it's actually not -- It's something else.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8545/8...a0a1e623_b.jpg

The recoil lug that we removed from this rifle was marred, twisted, a pile of crap is literally an understatement.

When the lug was removed, and swapped with this we IMMEDIATELY noticed the barrel was slanted downward.

It looked like it had been in a fight with a dremel and lost.

Sounds like this rifle was a reboxed rifle some moron screwed up

Going to wait and see what my smith says.

I've also been getting messages from other individuals that purchased these rifles, especially through the LE program that are in similar situations, themselves...I don't expect this issue on a $2k rifle, much less a LE rifle.

My love for Savages is fading faster and faster everyday.

Okay, so I wanted to address some misnomers and misinformation based on what WE have received.

First and foremost, I've called 6-7 distributors, talked to Savage 3 times and the first time I got 100% spot on, accurate information was yesterday, the 3rd time I spoke to Savage. Finally got a guy that knew his stuff...Now that I have the actual facts, I'm good to go.

The 10 BA LE is a 4.4 Short Action, small shank, small barrel nut platform. The barrels are torqued and "straightened" by hand, it's not only in their literature but, they did this with the 10 BA LE series.

The following is mostly hearsay but, I've been told multiple times what the 10 BA LE is and isn't...The vast majority of them were incorrect.

I've spoken to about 10 other owners of this rifle with the same exact issues I had. First shot is perfect, the rest look like a shotgun. Each individual I've spoken to since posting this has had the same recoil lug issue I did and much the same barrel issues that I do.

Let's discuss the barrel nut -- I'll have pictures to support this later...However, of the individuals I've spoken to, the nuts are having some serious problems. For example, on the bottom of my nut, the threading is almost worn through, at the top, it's barely touched...The same is true of the sides...Many others I spoke to have the same issues in different locations, the nuts don't properly wrap around the barrel. Most of the distributors I spoke to have said it's because they heat treat the barrel nuts...To be quite honest, I don't care if they do or they don't, what I can attest to is that my nut is not perfectly circular and this is the cause of most of my issues.

Let's discuss the recoil lug -- I don't have pictures of this but, my smith can/will happily post on this if necessary. When this part was removed, it literally looked like it had picked a fight with a dremel and lost. It was NOT flat, it was NOT straight, it was curved and had a side almost worn down completely...It was bad. The recoil lug was the only thing that was keeping my barrel "straight", once removed, it cocked immediately to the side at a 5-10* angle.

Let's discuss the barrel -- Okay, this is a rather nice barrel, I have no REAL complaints about it at all but, manually torqued? On a Law Enforcement rifle? ~ That's a no bueno to me...

I ABSOLUTELY believe that they "straightened" the barrel prior to shipping...That's the only possible explanation for this situation.

Let me also clarify a couple things.

We ordered these as a package...I paid for my rifle separately.

This was my original thread when I started having these issues out of the box: http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...-advice-needed

In hindsight, I more than likely should have sent the rifle back to begin with but, I didn't...So, I'm not blaming Savage for the fact that I never sent the rifle back on warranty...I'm blaming Savage for the fact that this left the floor in this condition to begin with. This is a LEO rifle, to have other guys with the SAME issues? -- Not remotely acceptable.

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To address the nut issue -- Let me start by saying I'm not an expert...However, when I see the inside of a nut nearly stripped out and the other side is literally almost untouched...There's an issue with the nut. Hearsay once again, one of the other guys I spoke to with this issue told me that they did heat treat these nuts...Whether they do or not, I'm not an expert but, if this was machined within tolerances there's absolutely no reason for this issue to exist, period.

My warranty was voided officially, the moment I took the action off of the Savage Tactical stock so, moving forward, my smith and I are going to take the gun apart completely and make sure it's not a threading issue, this weekend...

Otherwise, once again thanks to Jim@Northland...These nuts are great, hopefully they'll address some of my issues...Otherwise, if it is indeed a barrel issue, I have a McGowen coming Wednesday and a Bartlein on it's way back from meloniting. -- We'll get to the bottom of this in good time.

Thanks again gentleman.

So there's been some progress on this project and some interesting findings...I wanted to know more about what was going on so...Go go experiment time.

I have 3 barrels for the Savage -- 2 McGowen and a Lilja.

While we were testing one of the new barrels with the old nut (just to compare) the old nut actually split, completely and had to be dremelled off...It split on the location where the thread was worn the most...It was also very difficult to tighten the nut -- To be clear, it was a small shank and the Savage stock nut is a small nut...

We also found that the Savage barrel was NOT tight to the receiver...There wasn't exactly what I'd refer to as "wobble" but, this is the reason why the nut actually solved most of the issues...Clearly the Savage nut couldn't hold the barrel dead on so, there was pressure...The nut probably fractured internally weeks ago...

I don't understand why the Savage barrel wasn't threaded "properly" ~ I have no idea how that works but, we were able to almost change the cant of the barrel with a little pressure and some turning...Again, it's not that the barrel was "off to an angle" because we could manipulate it easily left-->right-->up-->down...It just wasn't actually in there 100%.

The McGowen barrels + the Lilja thread in perfectly to the receiver and sit 100% true...Not only do they sit true but, the fit is great.

Got the other guns together and alas, same exact issue, same exact remedy...Barrels aren't sitting 100% in the receiver and there is "wiggle room"...

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here but, if I'm having the above issue and the nut is fixing 90% of my issues with the stock Savage barrel, I'm going to guess that the nut is working because it's the only thing actually holding the barrel true to the receiver...Not saying that's a bad thing but, Jim's nuts (haha sorry) are significantly better quality than the Savage's and the tolerance is up there so, it makes sense to me.

I called Savage CS and spoke to them again about my issue -- I got the gentlemen I spoke to some time last week, again -- We had a conversation about the barrels/nuts and he told me that they're seeing a lot of these issues...When they do nut replacements they seem to "fix" the issue...~ DUH...They claimed it was "barrel tolerances" that were off...I don't know, I just know that I can literally change the direction of my barrel with a very small twist of the barrel and some pressure.

So at the end of the day, the "problem" is actually a simple one, the barrels really just don't "fit" properly and the nuts that Northland put out are much better then the Savage nuts so, they hold the barrel more true to the receiver than the Savage nuts, do...It's really that simple.

My suggestion for anyone else with this "cant" issue, either change your barrel or, get some new small shank nuts from Northland because the Savage nuts are truly crap.

Thanks for giving an update on this for everyone here. Sorry for your troubles!

Well, here she is -- The finished product.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8117/8...c67dbd66_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7312/8...51e16452_b.jpg

Savage 10BA LE action -- 110 BA bolt handle -- PTG body -- PTG head -- McGowen 21.25 1/10 twist SS barrel -- M11 severe duty brake (Will get another barrel for the surefire/supressor) -- Mcree folding chassis -- Atlas Bipod -- Leupold Mark 4 8.5x25x50...

Cerakote arrives on Monday...

Props to my Gunsmith ~ Parker Gunsmithing in CT

Will have a picture up and all that good stuff once paint is done.

Again, thank you all for your help -- I'm extremely happy with the end result and I'm glad this thread is here for anyone that has similar issues.

I'd still like to see a pic of the screwed up nut & lug....

I completely forgot to ask about it -- I'll ask tomorrow; I asked him to take pictures for me so I'd have something to show Savage so, we should have a bunch.