Ideas on Straightening Up Case Necks

I bought a bag of new, Winchester brass, for my new 22-250, last month. At the time, I noticed some of these had necks which looked to not be true to the cases' axis. I ran them through the FLS die and loaded them up. They are all now once-fired and resized. I'd hoped that the firing and resizing processes would straighten these necks up, but, it hasn't, at least on the ones with the problem. I loaded a group up, yesterday, and noticed excessive runout on some of these. As they are rotated, on the Forster gauge, you can see the neck is the problem.
So, I'm trying to think of ways to true the necks up on the next cycle. One idea is to run through the FLS die, check neck runout, and, if excessive, run it through again, preferably rotated 180. Second idea is to check neck runout on the fired brass, and run the off center ones through an expander die step before full length sizing.
Thoughts?

If the chamber is straight, then with 50,000 psi it should straighten them out, well to a point. It well may be the chamber of the gun that is crocked, I have seen this in many Savage rifles, but that doesn't mean they don't shoot good. The concentricity problem that your seeing can come from a few different sources. In the brass, it could be that one side of the brass is thicker than the other, then a light clean up with a neck trimmer can remind this problem. Being that the brass is new I would doubt that you are having a hardness problem, not allowing the brass to properly size. The problem could also be in the die, ill fitted neck bushings in some dies will cause concentricity problems. Make sure your shell holder is clean, as gunk builds up in them, and it can push the case to one side. he problem can also be in the press. Good luck

The expander button on the FL sizing die can cause that also...

Anneal your brass and neck size with a Lee Collet Die.

Kevin

Actually, I'm in the process of getting rid of all my Collet Die sets.

I checked neck run out on some of my remaining, sized 22-250 brass. Run out was good, my eyes are bad. So, initially couldn't figure out why I was getting bad run out on the loaded rounds. Then I realized I had replaced the standard seating plug with the VLD style micrometer seating plug. Pulled that out, stuck an A-Max bullet in it, and, sure enough, it wobbles. The standard plug holds it nice and secure. Stuck the standard plug back in, loaded up several more rounds, and run out was good. The VLD style micrometer seating plug is on its way back to Midway.

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Originally Posted by beartooth91

Actually, I'm in the process of getting rid of all my Collet Die set

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Smart man, you will thank your self a thousand time latter.

I've been using the Lee Collet Dies for 3 years. Have shot several, excellent groups. I check concentricity, on all my loaded rounds, and the Lee Collet Dies give excellent run out and just the right amount of tension. For neck sizing, I believe them to be an excellent, low cost, solution. But, more and more; I've come around to **proper** full length sizing. When checking neck run out, I get the same < .001" run out that I get with the Collet Dies. That's why I'm getting rid of the Collet Dies.
The most, recent learning experience, for me, is that seating dies are not all created equal. The seating die can make a bigger difference than I had previously thought with regard to run out on the loaded rounds.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Smart man, you will thank your self a thousand time latter.

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Please elaborate. I have been using them for years to create very concentric brass and never had to deal with a donut. Combined with annealing and a Redding body die, I don't see how you could get much better. My seating tension is uniform, my verticals are incredibly tight. Much better than when using bushing dies.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Please elaborate. I have been using them for years to create very concentric brass and never had to deal with a donut. Combined with annealing and a Redding body die, I don't see how you could get much better. My seating tension is uniform, my verticals are incredibly tight. Much better than when using bushing dies.

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How do you know your brass is concentric? How do you know your setting tension is uniformed? what is the AVERAGE group size your are shooting? You might be surprised how much better it can all get.

In my case, I check neck run out on the resized brass and then check run out on the loaded round. When comparing neck run out (sized brass) from -
Lee FL dies
Lee Collet dies
Redding Type S FL Bushing dies
Redding Series A FL dies

- the neck run out, on all, is always <= .001". Now, for the loaded rounds -

- the Lee seating dies, when seated into a Lee full sized case, give me the worst run out. When used with collet sized brass, the run out is generally <= .001". One difference is the Lee FL die squeezes the necks down a little more than the collet die, generally .001-.002".
- I get excellent run out when seating into bushing sized brass, almost always < .001". Now, my bushing selection was based on getting the same neck diameter as the collet dies give.
- The Redding Series A die sets, I have, generally give <= .001 run out on the loaded rounds, using both dies. A few may be a bit over .001"
- The biggest surprise, to me, is - no matter what die the brass is sized with - the Forster seating dies give the best run out I've ever seen. They are spectacular, with most loaded rounds well under .001". I get maybe 3 out of 15 which are just slightly over .001 and none which go over .0015".

So, it seems the seating die quality makes a difference. **I believe** if the neck is squeezed down too much, it makes it harder for the seater to get the bullet in straight.

And with my three Type S Bushing dies, I keep looking for the doughnuts, everyone is talking about, but have yet to see one....?

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Originally Posted by 82boy

How do you know your brass is concentric? How do you know your setting tension is uniformed? what is the AVERAGE group size your are shooting? You might be surprised how much better it can all get.

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I have a couple of concentricity gauges.

I measure seating force on my press.

Group size at what range? Typically 1/4 to 1/3 MOA out to 200 but most of my shooting is mid or long F-Class. Never over 3/4 MOA out to 1K.

Maybe it's a BR thing?

Love those Forster seaters!

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Originally Posted by kelbro

I measure seating force on my press.

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And how do you do this?

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Originally Posted by 82boy

And how do you do this?

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Take a look at the K&M arbor press with the force option if you are really interested.

I don't use that press as often any more as I have developed a pretty good 'feel' for when the force is less or more. Using the K&M showed me what to look for.

Now, back to my original request. Why do you feel that the bushing dies are better? Are you shooting better scores with them?

Personally, I have several thousands of rounds history with both methods and did not see a measurable difference.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Now, back to my original request. Why do you feel that the bushing dies are better? Are you shooting better scores with them?

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To start not all bushing dies are created equal, I find that the one popular company that mass produces them makes the worse offenders, as they are sloppy built, with the bushing rattling around, and that they are improperly made, and need modification to properly size the case.

Now with all that said moving onto the lee collet dies, if what your saying is truthful, you would be the first person I have ever herd of that is measuring there end product, and not having problems. On the other side of things, with annealing, running through body dies, and everything else, it is just WAY too much work. Going further, I find that neck sizing and using a body die prematurely work hardens the brass, and that with a properly set up FL die the brass last longer, with less work needed. I have also done both methods of neck sizing, and FL sizing and have found that FL sizing makes a round more accurate, that is repeatable. I have found that the chances of having an unexplained flyer, is much greater with neck sizing. My experiences with the Lee cullet dies, have not bee favorable, and running the rounds over a concentricity gauge, I could never produce a round that had good run out, let alone by design of the collet die, it produces a donut, with repeated use. It could be that your fixing these problems with annealing, but I don't anneal my brass. With that added, I shoot competitive Benchrest, and have shot many match's all over, and I have never seen or hear of anyone of them using a lee collet die. I have asked many other accomplished reloaders/shooters, and never found any of them using a lee die. For many it is a running joke, asking someone if they use a lee die.
I have yet to see anyone shoot a 5 shoot 100 yard group under .1 with a Lee Collet die.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...ps3ea01f4e.jpg

Stop making your ammo like this....


http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...facture-13.jpg

I used to make ammo like this. As a matter of fact I just ran across the Lee 44 cal "hammer dies" in my cabinet this weekend. I though I had gotten rid of those things. Seating primers with a hammer is not for the faint of heart. Although I never had any discharges.

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Originally Posted by Berniep

I used to make ammo like this. As a matter of fact I just ran across the Lee 44 cal "hammer dies" in my cabinet this weekend. I though I had gotten rid of those things. Seating primers with a hammer is not for the faint of heart. Although I never had any discharges.

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Punching out hot primers when you want to recycle brass is a lot of fun, too.
That photo is from Khyber Pass. It's from the place where the Khyber AK & other assorted weapons are made. Ammo included. After seeing how the bullet is "pressed" into the case, I'm surprised they still have all their fingers.

Not to appear to be a hijacker of the thread, I thought y'all would appreciate this. It kinda sorta puts thing in perspective, don'tcha think?
I'll wonder if they have any trouble with runout?.....

Good info. Thanks. Never shot a .1 (twice in a row) , same as most people, so I'm open to suggestions!

It was the Redding dies that I used (223, 223AI, 243AI, 308, 6mmBR) and then set aside. Sloppy and inconsistent bushings in half of them. What brand of bushing dies do you recommend?

Not sure about the fliers. at 800, 900, or 1000yds, I always blame those on a condition change :). Still, I don't see obvious fliers like you see at 100yds.

Annealing after each firing has been the key for me. Consistency is measurably improved. Good body dies combined with reasonably tight chambers do not work harden brass. I get many, many loads out of a set of Lapua brass and I'm not running 'light' loads.

I'm not a Lee fanboy. Most of their stuff appears cheap to me. The collet die is one of very few Lee parts on my bench. If they didn't produce really consistent brass, they wouldn't be on my bench because like you said, it's an extra step. I have heard that all of the majors have collet dies developed waiting for the patent to expire.

I don't shoot BR but I am always listening to how the BR guys do things. I think that although wind-reading is the most important part of F-Class, the handloading is right up there in importance.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

To start not all bushing dies are created equal, I find that the one popular company that mass produces them makes the worse offenders, as they are sloppy built, with the bushing rattling around, and that they are improperly made, and need modification to properly size the case.

Now with all that said moving onto the lee collet dies, if what your saying is truthful, you would be the first person I have ever herd of that is measuring there end product, and not having problems. On the other side of things, with annealing, running through body dies, and everything else, it is just WAY too much work. Going further, I find that neck sizing and using a body die prematurely work hardens the brass, and that with a properly set up FL die the brass last longer, with less work needed. I have also done both methods of neck sizing, and FL sizing and have found that FL sizing makes a round more accurate, that is repeatable. I have found that the chances of having an unexplained flyer, is much greater with neck sizing. My experiences with the Lee cullet dies, have not bee favorable, and running the rounds over a concentricity gauge, I could never produce a round that had good run out, let alone by design of the collet die, it produces a donut, with repeated use. It could be that your fixing these problems with annealing, but I don't anneal my brass. With that added, I shoot competitive Benchrest, and have shot many match's all over, and I have never seen or hear of anyone of them using a lee collet die. I have asked many other accomplished reloaders/shooters, and never found any of them using a lee die. For many it is a running joke, asking someone if they use a lee die.
I have yet to see anyone shoot a 5 shoot 100 yard group under .1 with a Lee Collet die.

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There must be a secret to getting bushing dies to make straight ammo. I never could make any of them work, so I settled on Forster FL custom neck honed dies and their mic seating die. I did use a lcd in 308, and I thought it worked well, but the FL Forster is a better way to go. Luckus

I can say that the problems with bushing die I have seen are in commercial made dies. (you have the one I mostly associated with listed in your post.) I mostly use Harrell's dies, but they are limited in there caliber list. I shoot both long range, and short range Benchrest, and use Harrell's dies with both. (22br, 6 PPC, 30br, 6br, 6x47 Lapua, 6 dasher.) I also use Borden 3/4 dies.

A lot of long range shooter anneal brass, and swear by it. In short range most shooters don't. You would be surprised how much work hardening there is whit neck sizing brass, even in tight chambers, and with body dies. If you ever read Tony Boyer's book, he explains what is happening to the brass when it is neck sized, and how he has found that brass last longer and stays in shape when FL sized by a proper die. (I have also found this to be the same, as much of my brass has 40 plus firings on them, and have never bee annealed.) Think about sizing like you do with your body. If you run everyday you build up a tolerance, and your mussels stay in shape, and you find running as a natural thing, and it puts little were and tear on your body. Now lets say you run once ever three weeks, your going to find that your mussels are sore, and it will not fell natural, and in fact your putting more wear and tear on your body, because your body is not conditioned. Now to put this into perspective, FL sizing is like running everyday, and the other is like neck sizing.

Not all lee stuff is bad some of it is quite good. I have used one of several lee priming tools to prime cases. (And have they primed a few cases, I cant even think of the amount of bricks of primers have been seated by them.) I found that Tony Boyer also uses this same tool, and heck he has one so much in Benchrest I highly doubt anyone will catch up to him. so it must work. The lee prefect powder measurer, does a great job, and is every bit as good as any higher dollar competition powder measurers. Some of the lee presses are not bad, I use a custom made press that utilizes lee parts. (Same make press Eunice Berger was using when she won the super shoot.) But I have never seen a LEE die I thought was worth using.

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Originally Posted by Luckus

There must be a secret to getting bushing dies to make straight ammo. Luckus

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Yup buy well made bushing dies.