what is the advantage of wildcats.....

ok, i am sure that this is not a first time question, but as a beginner looking down the road i am trying to understand all this wildcatting of different cartridges.

i think a big part of it is for the fun of the shooter, trying different stuff, playing etc. i understand that feeding action, and felt recoil and stuff like that all play into it, but are people really finding huge performance changes in these wildcats.

i am gonna use 30 cal. as an example. on the low end is 30 carbine, w/ 308, 30-06, 300wsm, 300rum etc., this covers a huge powder range/capacity for the same batch of bullets, from basically 110gr, to 240gr, w/ a host of powders to push them. i used the above example because i own all those chamberings (except 30 carbine) in quality rifles.

the wildcats out there are enormous in just 30 cal, and with other calibers the options are even more over the top. from my perspective w/ all the various capacity cartridges already available in factory brass and inexpensive dies, what is the advantages of going down the wildcat trail?

i realize i can ask this about a host of caliber's, .22 cal is even bigger in wildcatting, but w/ .223rem and 22-250 readily available and reasonable, does someone really need to go down that road to get better performance, or have i completely missed the point here?

You are correct in that it has a lot to do with the fun of creating a cartridge or working with a cartridge that isn't available from the factory. Part of it could also be pride of ownership too. I guess it could be something like restoring a rare collectible. When you are done, you will have something unique that is a labor of love. For some, there is a lot of satisfaction in that. Years ago, wildcatting was done more to fill a performance gap. Most of the cartridges that we use today started life as wildcats (25-06, 338-06, 7mm-08, 243Win, 22-250, 260, 270 Win, 280, 35 Whelen etc.). You are also correct that nowadays there are very few performance gaps so now it has to do with more minute details of cartridge design. I wanted a 338 Lapua but couldn't have one in a Savage so I opted for a 338 Edge. I could have settled for the 338RUM but the key word there is SETTLED. I don't like to settle.

Personally I think they are a PIA.

Back in the old days when there were a lot of gaps in calibers and not many magnums, it made sense, Rework a lever action to a 444ss (cant remember the name of what that wildcat was) or rebarrel a gun to a 338-06 etc. If I remember right a lot of that sort of wildcattting was done to get higher vel big caliber rounds for Ak and canada, moose bear etc.

On the other end were the target shooter wildcatters, looking for better performance, IE the 22 ppc, and other BR rounds.

One of the later good wildcats is the 30BR that was developed for 100-200-300 yd score shooting.
That now dominates 100-200 yd over the older rounds. Randy Robinette created that one but close rounds close to that had been done before.

There are just so many good cartridges out there, I just dont see why other than pride of ownership of the name. Either that or if you come up with something that just works a lot better than anything else.

One might be 6mm wildcats built of the new 30 RAR shell, but then there are so many good 6mm rounds, like the 6mmBR, 243, 6x47 lapua wildcat.

Another apparently good one was a special done for 1000 yd competition. Cant remember the guys name though. 308 caliber, built of a necked down and modified shell/shoulder 338 lapua. I think that guy now holds the record at something like 1.75" at 1000 yards.

Wildcats are a labor of love! ;D

As stated, there are very few gaps in levels of performance nowadays.

Most cats were built for improved performance of some type...not just velocity though. One of the primary purposes of the Ackley line was to limit case stretch and therefore add to case life. Velocity performance aside, the goal was accomplished. The Ackley cases very seldom need to be trimmed after being formed.

Another reason is brass availability or cost. Many of the '06, 308 and 223 based cats were done because the cost of military brass is relatively cheap. (unless you get Lapua brass!! ;) ;D)

The number one reason:

Because you want one!!! ;) ;D


I do it for the sheer pleasure of playing with anything firearm related! ;)

Right now I'm juggling wildcats and casting/swaging/casting bullets.

If, as some are trying, they outlaw bullets or brass or something along those lines....the knowledge of wildcatting/swaging/casting will keep me shooting when everyone else has run outta ammo. ;)

Well if it gets to that point, they will probably create a new law banning the manufacturing of bullets
without a license etc etc.

For now I am with you.
I need to get out there and melt down some wheel weights.

the subject is kinda changing here, but since we started that direction, i want to ask, if ammo goes the way obama wants it to, casting and swaging i agree is of value, but what is involved in making a primer and modern style powders. we can all stockpile lead and such, but without primers, the bullet is worthless.

i guess point blank, how hard is it to manufacture a reliable primer?

I am sure you could make a primer somehow, but its probably easier just to buy several thousand.

It has an impact-sensitive chemical but I have never read what it is.

If they go by the wayside, we might have to go back to black powder flintlocks I guess.

You might be able to make a percussion cap easier.

Basically a metal cup and some nitro glycerin or fulminate of mercury.

Black powder is made from Salt Peter, sulfer and charcoal, and you
can still buy the components for that for now.

flint lock

Flash bulbs from the old style cameras. You can use a one ounce electronic trigger.

Outlaw, have you already figured out how to do that?

If guns, bullets, powders and primers are all outlawed....I haven't figured out how to "get around" the primer yet.

Bullets...I got covered.
Brass...got covered.
powder...got covered.

Primers? I'm screwed, other than stock piling.

save your thermometers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(II)_fulminate

i havent figured anything out really havent thought about it much, just throwing out some ideas.

Yall havent figured it out yet huh? About 20 years ago they had a new type of primer developed that was designed to go bad after only 3 months on the shelf. Stockpile all you want but if your ammo isnt already loaded by now, your screwed. How much you wanna bet they are on our shelves already? Im not betting I have some in my stock already.

I know lots of people are grabbing up ammo by the millions, thats cool but seriously, just how much ammo would a guy need to feed himself? We cannot fight the Govt with these primative weapons when all they have to do is push a button.
Just load up what you can for your most dependable rifle and call it good. I recomend a good 223 with a couple hundred rounds, you can kill most any animal with it and its quiet. Maybe a good 22LR, Ive killed deer just fine with that.

Has anyone else heard about all the ATF agents that are showing up in a city near you? They are already checking around this town and talking to people who have made rifle purchases recently. Anyhow, Thats what Ive heard from a local FFL holder/friend. Its closer than you think and there isnt anything we can do about it. Trying to get organized doesnt work (hasnt in the past ) because the Govt shuts them down when they try.All we can do now is ready ourselves to meet out maker (unless your not a Christian or Jew) then you dont have anything to worry about..LOL..

Recently heard that Obama is changing our servicemens oath now too. Instead of pledging an oath to America, its been changed to pledging an oath to the president of America. Were in HUGE HUGE trouble people. Ive never wanted to be a horormonger but what else good can be said right now?

I recomend we dont talk about fighting our leaders other than through demonstrations. Ive personally been trying to distance myself from gun forums lately and asked to be released from my moderator possition. Jim was a very good sport and I apreciate that but staying away from something you love is proving very dificult.

Good luck guys, hope ya'll can find a cure for the little primer problem situation. Now, back to lurking... ;)

;D

Hard to stay away ain't it? ROTFLMAO!

I know what you mean, but it's hard NOT to say anything while watching all this BS take place.

Like you said though, the most important part of this, is to make peace with your Maker! It may be the only peace we will have before much longer. ;)

CYA L8r lurker! LOL!

OK, back on track.

Because you cannot buy a 257WSM over the counter. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EFBell

OK, back on track.

Because you cannot buy a 257WSM over the counter. ;)

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That is one really GOOD wildcat Ed!!!


Sometime this year, if things don't get crazy on us, I'm gonna get either a controlled round feed or center feed and do one of those.

Yours is a controlled round feed right?

I'm really liking the 25-06AI and thinking the 25 caliber needs to be explored more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apache

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EFBell

OK, back on track.

Because you cannot buy a 257WSM over the counter. ;)

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That is one really GOOD wildcat Ed!!!


Sometime this year, if things don't get crazy on us, I'm gonna get either a controlled round feed or center feed and do one of those.

Yours is a controlled round feed right?

I'm really liking the 25-06AI and thinking the 25 caliber needs to be explored more.

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Yep, early large shank controlled feed.
You cant have enough 1/4 bores.

How about a 25-06 black powder matchlock side-lock just in case they outlaw flint.

This is what our savages will look like after we get through converting them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PS8004046.jpg

Of couse SSS having a lock (no pun intended) on savage refits should already have a
more refined matchlock in-line assembly.

Rumor has it, Hammer already has 25 or so matchlock savages waiting just in case.

Thinking of 2 wildcats in 25 cal.....other than the 257WSM

A 25x47 Lapua.....I LOVE that case.

and one based on the 6.5x55 case....take a 25BR reamer run it deep. Will be a bit more than a 25 Bob and I'll use Lapua brass for it. Using the Barnes 80 grn tipped TSX it should be a very good killer in a light weight rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tammons

How about a 25-06 black powder matchlock side-lock just in case they outlaw flint.

This is what our savages will look like after we get through converting them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PS8004046.jpg

Of couse SSS having a lock (no pun intended) on savage refits should already have a
more refined matchlock in-line assembly.

Rumor has it, Hammer already has 25 or so matchlock savages waiting just in case.

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LOL!!

I can just see a Savage with that modification on it!!!

Seems like the logical next step in the evolution of the 10ML.

Been thinking about that 55mm case myself. ;D

All you need to do is eliminte the action.
Bore the barrel a bit and rechamber.
Drill out the primer pocket of your 25-06 brass and replace the primer with
a piece of burn through film.
Add a rolling block type breech to your barrel.

Add a cap lock to accept home made nitro caps and you are good to go.

When they outlaw nitro swap out for a flintlock.

When they outlaw flintlock, just swap out for a pan and douse with
home made black powder and a match lock.

Pssssssssssssssssssssssssst --------- Boom

http://www.brigadeqm.com/cgi-bin/tam...Flevel3c%2Etam

Spose we will need to regester this too?

You can bet long knives and machettes will be coming up too.

They already have shipping restrictions in some states on blades, my state being one of them.

Luckily the comapany I ordred my kabar hog stikin' special from was not savy.

Its the best big knife I have ever owned.
Big and heavy enough to chop wood with. Big enough for most any task.
Its my go to 14.5" swamp knife.

http://www.kabar.com/images/1277_large.jpg

https://www.kabar.com/product_detail...nting/Sporting

Being new to wildcats, in fact so new that I am still working on finishing my first wildcat, I will say what made me decide to do a wildcat is? Well, let's say a wildcat is like buying a burger from Burger King. You can have it your way. ;D

I am serious though.

What kinda wildcat did you build?

Most everything I have are wildcats...... ::)

Got one big thumper, 458 winny, to use with PP bullets and black powder if things get really bad. Cast/swage my own lead for it. Any 2.5" belted case can be used for it except the 450 Marlin. Primers are my hang up.

Hope my primers have a long shelf life and aren't the ones Thad was talkin about.

If you've been to any Central or South American countries, machetes are EVERYWHERE! They even cut grass with them! Can't afford a lawn mower. ;)

;D

So far, all the the wildones that I have, are wonderful in terms of ballistics and performance.

223 AI - Will do everything a 22/250 will do with a lot less money tied up in brass, uses less powder, and you don't have to trim cases.

22/6mm AI - what a phenomenal round. I do not push this above 3700 fps to save the barrel, but WOW!!, talk about terminal performance on prairie dogs at 400 yards and beyond. Article written about this cartridget titled "The Half Mile 22".

6.5x55 AI - If you want to "wildcat", then pick a bullet with stupendous BC and find a case for it. I went the x55 case route because the brass is good and does not cost $1 per brass. Lapua brass is also available for a reasonable cost as well. There is a 5 shot 3" 700 yard group taped to the side of my safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apache

What kinda wildcat did you build?

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Started on a 22-47 lapua but lost interest.
Still have the reamer.

Set up a 30BR. Shot it for a while.
Sold the barrel to somebody here.

Have a 338-284 that is sweet, but
now I have a 375 ruger so I might sell it too.

My main hunting rigs are

375 ruger
6.8 spc Ar15 (most used)
I load either 110 gr barnes TTSX or 85 gr TSX sledgehammers in that one.
338-284, but I have not used it lately. Barrel is sittiing int he corner.
7mm-08 that will hopefully soon be a 6mm-284 or a 6mm-WSM or a 25 WSM via EF

Also have a 50 cal set trigger hawken flintlock repro and 2 44 caliber black powder
revolvers. One 12" barrel ( l o n g ) and one 8" barrel.
I am going to sell the 8" barrel for a pocket gun, 4" barrel or so.

Have a target action with a 223 A+B barrel thats sweet.

As we speak I am loading up some 85 gr barnes bulelts for
Pops 270 weatherby magnum.

Hmmmm......22x47 Lapua reamer sounds interesting...tight neck?

Cant remember on the neck.
It is from Kiff so I would have to call him.

Because when at the range and someone asks what you are shooting you can confuse the hell out of them!

I think it is funny that the argument against wildcats always involves examples of cartridges that started life as wildcats themselves.

Having just dipped my toe in the pool with a 7-300WSM Savage with great results I am already thinking about other options around the WSM case.

My first wildcatting was to increase velocity to increase energy without blowing up or stretching the frame on my Thompson Center Contenders. Being a handgun hunter in big bear country I wanted to reach out and touch a deer and still have something for bear protection. SO either my bud or my wife always carried a repeating rifle.

When the Encores came out I immediately got a 338 X06 barrel! After a very close encounter of the worst kind (bear/cubs/12 feet) I decided that my single shot just wasn't big enough. Think of the old volkswagen beatles,put hair and legs on it with a really nasty personality! SO I improved the 338 X06. I did not get enough improvement so went to the 338 Gibbs. Poor brass = poor case life awesome ballistics. Ran into a fellow wildcatter who also shot many of the Gibbs line and he turned me onto the RWS brass. Tried it,liked it,never wore a case out . In the process I learned of the 7X65Rimmed case. Ordered a bunch, had a reamer made based on the slightly under 30-06 case size.

Now I had a rimmed 06 sized case so I did not have to take gloves off to extract cases. I had pre-WSM ballistics and did not have to go to belted Magnums to get what I wanted. I was after 06 rifle ballistics when the 06 was shooting 180 grain bullets. The 16" Encore barrel was safely shooting the 180 grain Accubond at well past 2800fps and I quit checking case at 15 reloads. I have never lost a case and have gone past 20 reloads..
SO for me it was application pure and simple. I wanted something that would reach out and take a sheep,goat or deer in the high country and still cover my bacon along the rivers when I was trying to gain access to a distant mountain.

Then there was another bear attack. Yes I felt comfortable screwing the barrel in a ear if the bear chose to come around the tree to get me. But what if I were in the open/unprotected? I now have a 8 pound 338 Edge, 6.2 pound 338WSM and a couple 6.7 pound 338 Win Mags. The 338R CE just hasn't the powder capacity to drive the big bullets like the larger cases will. 225 and 250gr bullets down the pipe in close in country and lighter long ranging bullets in the high country.

Need is what I was after. No excuses the past couple years for where i have been though.

Neal

.

99¾ percent of all folks should do as I do and avoid all contact with wildcats.

The remainder should do as I do and...


14-221 Walker
17 Super Bumble Bee
20 TAC
22½ Hornet-Fireball
222½ Remington
22 XC
219 Donaldson Wasp #1
219 Donaldson Wasp #2
22-6mm Remington
6mm TCU
6mm-250 International
6XC
6mm-06 Mashburn
.
.
.
470 Capstick
475 A&M
500 Alaskan
500 A-Square
550 Magnum
585 Nyati


That should cover 100%.

.

Well, speed, accuracy, wider powder selection, wider bullet weight selection, and...the fun of it.

The primary reason for me, prairie dogs. I run 223 AI's because I get very close to 22/250 velocity without using that much powder.

Less powder = less heat = less throat erosion

.

Now why, pray tell, shoot a 223 AI when a 222 Remington Magnum will outperform it at similar pressures ?


.

Why Wildcat . . Because Boys will be Boys - and - Just because we can . . . ;D ;D ;D ;D

What a great Question to ask . . and look at the responses. I built my first Wildcat back in 68' or 69' a 25-06 and over the course of 25+ years shot the barrel out of it . . What a great caliber it was too, could reach out and touch a deer on a ridge 300 yards away and not loose him. Since - I have built several and the mystique of them is just the reason to keep doing it - love them . . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hammer

Now why, pray tell, shoot a 223 AI when a 222 Remington Magnum will outperform it at similar pressures ?

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Ultra cheap brass comes to mind right away. :)

Lots of factory 223's with 1:12 or 1:9 are rather plentiful. If the smitty pays attention, you don't have to set back. It is good to set back, but you don't absolutely have to, IF you are careful.

.

Cheap brass ?

You will let yourself be lured by cheap brass ?

Next thing you know you will be advising upstanding young men into being lured by cheap women and booze.

;) ;)

.

.

You do know that 32 Winchester Special brass can be used to form the 219 Donaldson Wasp with only six forming dies before getting to the standard two die handloading set. There is the matter of case neck reaming and then neck turning.

Hydraulic case forming can be used too.

.

There's cheap women and booze here??!!



Hutch ???

.


Also, can use fired 22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire brass to make 6mm bullet jackets and with a seven-die set can form rebated boattail bullets with a secant ogive. Combined with salvaged swaged lead bullets (sorted from hard cast bullets shot on the same range) can produce nearly free 6mm bullets to be fired in the 6mm-22 Hornet.

Oh, but you got me carried away.




Will go back to sorting my 16 gauge 2-5/8 inch shells from my 2-9/16 inch shells.

Will never accept this 2-3/4 inch standard that the communists are trying to foist on us.



Have y'all seen my 16 gauge 3-inch collection ?


.

there was a lot of free space on the die shelf that had to be filled. I need more dies to fill it. being a non conformist I could not fill it with conforming dies that would do nothing to stop people at the range, causing them to stare at the ammo box and finely ask what it is that I am shooting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hammer

.

Cheap brass ?

You will let yourself be lured by cheap brass ?

Next thing you know you will be advising upstanding young men into being lured by cheap women and booze.

;) ;)

.

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We tried that with Nick, he didn't fall for it.