Crock or legit concern?

For the record my vote is for crock but I wanted to run this situation by experienced rifle builders.

I am building a 35 Caliber wildcat to match Indiana Deer regualations. Thanks to BillPa I found that 4d Products offers the chamber and Caliber that I was wanting. MGM is the only other place I found that offered the wildcat chamber but the fact hat 4d had the headspace gauges to go with the barrel sold me. I ordered the Criterion barrel from 4d. I ordered a 22 inch bull in chromemoly.

There is a gun smith a few hours away who is well known for building this very wildcat, he is considered by most to be the go to guy on this particular round. Most people believe he created the round, however that is false.

A friend of mine is building an identical rifle along with me except he is using a stainless barrel. This friend met the Smith that builds these at a outdoor expo. He spoke with him in an attempt to determine if he wanted to have one built or if he wanted to piece it together himeself. At the expo the smith was very critical of the Savage action and prefered the remington. At that time he stated that it would be more than a year to get the gun built do to other orders. My friend and I went ahead and ordered the Criterion Barrels, Boyds stocks, and Savage 11 short actions.

The same smith also offers for sale ammunition for sale for the wildcat. I plan to load my own however the wait on the Hornady custom dies is 16 weeks. My friend contacted the smith again by phone to see about ammo untill the dies arrive. My friend and the smith had a very cordial conversation about the rifles my friend and I are building. Durning this converstation the gun smith told my friend that the Criterion Barrel was a low end barrel that may not be capable of handling the load pressures the Shilen barrels he uses can handle. He stated that there would be issues with wall thickness, material quality, and accuracy. He stated that he would most likely not sell ammunition to anyone that did not use the Shilen barrels he reams. He stated that they had done extensive testing with the Shilen barrels pressure capacity. My friend became a bit nervous and asked him when he could have a gun built, he now told him he would have it by September of this year.

I understand that no one else local has the reamer for this project and that if it becomes public that people can simply order up a already reamed barrel with the gauges he is likely to lose buisness.

In my mind the issues he brought up are a crock. Wall thickness? is a 35 caliber bore with a 1 inch diameter going to have a different wall thickness from one barrel to another? NO

Material? Is shilen using a chromemoly of higher quality than criterion? Reviews all say they are both great barrels.

Breech pressure? Is the criterion barrel I have not the same blank criterion would build a 300 win mag or similiar from?

He also stated that his ammo was built especially for the Shilen barrel. I just dont buy it.

The smith, whos name I have not used on purpose, charges anywhere from 495 to 900 for builds on top of the cost of your donor gun. I can put mine together for the price of the barrel and the price of the gauge rental. Im not wanting to build these to get rich, and he would certainly lose money if the average Joe would order the barrel already reamed and have a local smith match it to the action. So are his claims that I cant use a Criterion a Crock or since he is the expert on this round should I pay his warning some mind.

Thanks in advance.

Big time Crock!

drybean

One of the great smiths in this area is soooo set in his ways! Way things are. Lol he will also tell you just buy a savage and shoot the dang thing no sense in upgrading most accurate gun out there! Waste of money he says other than bedding.

I would wait the 16 weeks for the dies.

bossman

Lots of builders are set in their ways and resistant to change. I've been guilty of that myself in building engines for customers, although I never go so far as to actually bash their preferance, but at times I did insist that if I built it I would use xxx brand or I would not be interested in building it. To go as far as he did sounds pretty unprofessional to me, but it's his business and not mine.

As to the barrel issue, he's just tyring to push a sale on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nate

For the record my vote is for crock but I wanted to run this situation by experienced rifle builders.

Thanks to BillPa I found that 4d Products offers the chamber and Caliber that I was wanting.

I ordered the Criterion barrel from 4d. I ordered a 22 inch bull in chromemoly.

At the expo the smith was very critical of the Savage action and prefered the remington.

The same smith also offers for sale ammunition for sale for the wildcat. I plan to load my own however the wait on the Hornady custom dies is 16 weeks.

Durning this converstation the gun smith told my friend that the Criterion Barrel was a low end barrel that may not be capable of handling the load pressures the Shilen barrels he uses can handle. He stated that there would be issues with wall thickness

I understand that no one else local has the reamer for this project and that if it becomes public that people can simply order up a already reamed barrel with the gauges he is likely to lose buisness.

In my mind the issues he brought up are a crock. Wall thickness? is a 35 caliber bore with a 1 inch diameter going to have a different wall thickness from one barrel to another? NO

Material? Is shilen using a chromemoly of higher quality than criterion? Reviews all say they are both great barrels.

Breech pressure? Is the criterion barrel I have not the same blank criterion would build a 300 win mag or similiar from?

He also stated that his ammo was built especially for the Shilen barrel. I just dont buy it.

So are his claims that I cant use a Criterion a Crock or since he is the expert on this round should I pay his warning some mind.

Thanks in advance.

---

Where to start?

First, your welcome!!! Did you order a chambered pre-fit from 4d?

Dies, although I forget what you building cartridge wise, I'd call Dave at CH4D and see if you has or will make them for you. He has made dies for me in the past in weird stuff, 270-08 and 270-08 Imp to name two.

Remington or Savage action is mute point. Your brass will give out long before the action gives up.

Breach pressure? Unless he has a strain gauge setup his is a WAG.

Ammo for a Shilen barrel? Honestly!!

Wall thickness? Sure, with barrels of the same taper, as the bore diameter increases the wall thickness decreases. Personally I feel once you go over 30 cal you should use a heavier (say thicker) barrel, but is is necessary ???

For all intent and proposes you building the same rifle as this....
http://i33.tinypic.com/33wnokm.jpg

A SA 200 action, Shilen SS 22" #4 Mag sporter in 338 Federal, Timney trigger , Boyd's stock bedded with PS, pillars installed all 'smithed by "Anonymous" Why did I used a Shilen barrel? A friend had it laying on the pile and I didn't have a 33-08 :p, no other reason.

In summary, if I were you I'd look around and talk to a few other 'smiths. Yours is just a little to opinionated for my blood.

Bill

He 's just pissy you didn't buy one of HIS Shilen barrels so he could make the profit off it, and since you didn't he's going to be a prick to you and feed you a bunch of B.S. to justify his refusal to sell you ammunition.

That has to be one of the bigger loads of B.S. I've seen or heard in a while.

Pretty sure the loads that smith is using don't even begin to approach the pressures I've seen folks using regularly on the firing line @ 1000yd matches (not condoning said practice, just saying) and the actions - and barrels - don't have a problem. Primer pockets, maybe ;)

Shilen is good stuff, don't get me wrong. But there is nothing 'magic' about them in terms of handling pressure, etc.

Yeah....he's just frumpin because he didn't make the sale. And, when you guy's show up at the local range and shoot pin-hole groups with your's....he's really gonna get his shorts in a rumple.

Keep moving forward with your build. This guy is just sour grapes.

Dave

It's BS.....

BTW, whatever wildcat this is, I doubt VERY seriously if he was the first to build it!!!

Well, I Have owned both Criterion and Shilen barrels and I have had good luck with them both. I dont know what wildcat cartridge your talking about but if memory serves me right IN. law says that you can use a rifle to shoot deer but it has to be a straight wall cartridge. So I am assuming this cartridge is a straight wall cartridge, would this be right? I can't imigine a straight wall cartridge putting up 50,000 to 60,000 psi that most bottle necked cartridges safely opperate at. There is hundereds if not thousands of Criterion barrels that are safetly opperating at these pressures everyday. What the smith may be thinking of is Bergara barrels, there was a lot of reports of them making a barrel that would rupture under the pressures used in the modern cartridge.

As far as Criterion being made from a diferent steel than Shilen, at first this was true, in the stainless steel barrels. When Criterion first came out the made there barrels from 410 stainless steel. I have one of these barrels, and I had it rechambered and it was the gun smiths worse nightmare, it took him several trys to get it right, and this is a higly seasoned smith. Since then Criterion whent to using 416 stainless steel, the exact same steel as Shilen uses in thier barrels. I been told there is only 2 sources of 416 steel, so with that said I would be willing to bet that both Shilen and Criterion use the exact same steel. Why not call both Shilen and Criterion and ask them; What type of chromoly steel are you using? They will give you a number, and see if the numbers are the same. That is one way to skin the cat.

As far as wall thinkness, well if a blank is the same contour then why would one have a thicker wall than another? On accuracy, well read all the reports on the Criterion barrels, and that should tell you about that subject. No one can make ammo for a specific make of barrel, all barrel have thier own personality, and will all behave diferently. He may match his ammo to the specks of his reamer, but that would be it, if anything at all.

Any smith critical of the Savage usualy has never worked on one, they just go with the main stream prejudius that is out there. If they actuly played with one that would find that it is every bit as good, if not better than thier beloved Remington.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 82boy

So I am assuming this cartridge is a straight wall cartridge, would this be right?

---

No, its shortened 358 Win.
http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/a...sierDies01.jpg

A bunch of stuff about it....http://www.hoosierhunting.com/ubb/ul...ic/41/161.html

Bill

That smith is FOS. He is just trying to make a buck by feeding you BS. He probably would have made more $$ in the long run had he just sold you all ammo instead of pulling the moron card to get more $$ out of you. Probably one of those guys that you have to pay a certain amount of $$ to join his little club to get work done in a timely manner.

And from all that I have read, there is very, very little difference between the shilen and Criterion barrels. And if there is, there isn't enough difference that that little round would cause any sort of problems. I doubt you'd even see issues in a super thing barrel with that.

Thanks BillPa. You have been tremendously helpful. I did order a pre-fit barrel from 4D.

I contacted Dave and he was about half the price as Hornady, however he was 5 to 6 months out.

I will just have to learn to be patient. May go ahead and order a pillar bedding kit for the Boyds stock to keep me busy while I wait.

Thanks again!

And yes it's the .358 Hoosier.

So, let me get this straight; the Hoosier has more pressure than my .35 Whelen loaded to 2600 FPS with 250 gr. bullets. That gunsmith is no-one I would want building a rifle for me. Build it yourself. By the way, what the he** is the logic behind Indiana's logic behind that cartridge requirement? Some one in Indiana has thier heads up thier a**'s.

El Lobo

Indiana has made several attempts to get more youths involved in hunting. They introduced a youth only season for deer and turkey. They introduced free youth weekends And apprentice youth licenses. One other thing they have done is legalized .410 slug guns and any rifle that is at least .35 caliber and shorter than 1.800 at the case. The idea was that youth and adults hunters alike could use .357 and 44 magnums with similar ballistics to muzzleloaders and sabot slugs while avoiding the 35 Remington and above. Wildcats have far exceeded the rounds that the law was designed to forbid but that is just part of it. If its safety concerns in flat populated areas or if its a deer harvest concern I can't sat.

I would say that's a crock! If he's done extensive testing and determined that shilens barrels are te only ones safe for this round, I would ask to see his data from testing, and his pressure gun. Im not positive but as far as I know the only way to properly test presides of rounds is to use a pressure gun, we have one at the shop and I'm told they are very expensive! Not something that a gunsmith is going to have unless he did actually design this cartridge...

Total BS.