IFF- Identify feature or failure- Please help!

I assume most of you know the three position safety which is used with the SAVAGE 10FP, but just to make sure that you understand what I mean with each position:
Position (1) Save: Trigger and Bolt locked
Position (2) Trigger not working, but bolt to be opened /
Position (3) like (2), but trigger "hot": rifle ready to fire.

At the range I normally will not engage the safety. There is only one round in the rifle. When I close the bolt, I am in position to shoot. Everything worked fine all the time.

So, after having used my pre-accutrigger SAVAGE 10FP rifle (.223 Rem) for sometime at the range, I brought it to the field to hunt.

Hunting I am using the safety: I load the rifle with five cartridges using safety in position (2) and then move the safety to position (1). Normally, while going to the high seat that´s the way it stays. Before climbing the high seat I will unchamber the round and push it down in the magazine, closing the bolt on an empty chamber. On the high seat I will then chamber a round again. It looks like I have done that most often with the trigger in position (3). No problem as the rifle was pointing in a safe direction with a safe bullet stop.
Today, wearing gloves, I was very cautious with the safety and must have used position (2) to chamber the round, when having climbed the high seat.

Here comes the fox, but, pulling the trigger with the safety in position (3), the rifle does not go "bang". The most unpleasant and rattling sound? No bang when expecting one.

So I unloaded to check for an explanation, loosing a good fox. I found out that cycling the bolt with the safety being in position (2) does not cock the rifle, cycling in position (3) does.


My question: Is this a feature or a failure?


I cannot believe that it is a feature, as having the firing pin sitting against the primer is not good practice from my point of view. The primers are already showing very light imprints on their surface.

If it is indeed a failure, what might be the problem and how to solve it? Any takers, please? Your help will be greatly appreciated!



PS:
To specify the rifle´s setup:
The rifle is equipped with an after market trigger from SSS (which is great), and a thrust bearing to improve bolt lift.

Have you tried to cycle and fire the rifle since then?

If that indeed happened then the safety has to be out of adjustment. The reasons I say that is because...

1. You shouldn't be able to engage the safety into position 1 or 2 without the rifle being cocked (cocks on opening).
2. Once the bolt is lifted to cock the firing pin (bolt up but no rearward movement) you should be able to engage the safety into position 1 or 2.
3. Opening/closing the bolt any number of times with the rifle cocked and the safety in position 2 will not decock the firing pin.
4. Going from position 1 or 2 to position 3 at any time and pulling the trigger will fire the rifle as it should.

Are you sure you cycled a live round back into the chamber once you got up into your high chair? Wouldn't be the first time that minor oversight bit a hunter in the bum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JCalhoun

Have you tried to cycle and fire the rifle since then?

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Multiple times. And every time I try to cock the previously uncocked firing pin by lifting the bold handle with the safety in (2), it will not stay cocked, when the bolt handle is pushed down.

When I lift the bolt in position (3), the firing pin will cock. When I in this status move the safety to position (2), lift and push down the bolt handle, the firing pin will stay cocked at the end of the manipulation. Only if in safety position (2) and uncocked, the bolt handle up- and downward movement will not cock the firing pin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrFurious

If that indeed happened then the safety has to be out of adjustment. The reasons I say that is because...

1. You shouldn't be able to engage the safety into position 1 or 2 without the rifle being cocked (cocks on opening).
2. Once the bolt is lifted to cock the firing pin (bolt up but no rearward movement) you should be able to engage the safety into position 1 or 2.
3. Opening/closing the bolt any number of times with the rifle cocked and the safety in position 2 will not decock the firing pin.
4. Going from position 1 or 2 to position 3 at any time and pulling the trigger will fire the rifle as it should.

Are you sure you cycled a live round back into the chamber once you got up into your high chair? Wouldn't be the first time that minor oversight bit a hunter in the bum.

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Thank you for your answer.

Good point about minor oversights, but I am firm believer in practicing and rechecking my doings. Of course I am accepting that I make mistakes, but I will "brass-check" each and every time.
But even if we assume I did not cycle a round into the chamber, I would have heard the click of the firing pin when pulling the trigger, which I did not. And checking my cartridges at home, the above mentioned little marks where the firing pin was sitting against the primer, are telling me, that the problem has been there for quite some time. (From the last lot of ammo I had still five cartridges. So these saw some time in the rifle, statistically each one at some time against the firing pin and getting marked. I have been out hunting without shooting at anything quite often recently.)

And I replayed the situation and reproduced the problem each and every time: Trying to cock the previously uncocked firing pin in safety position (2) will not work. (If already cocked in position (3), cycling in position (2) will keep the previously cocked firing pin cocked.)

Any ideas what I can do to get rid of this problem?

By the way: To take one variable out of the equation, I took out the bolt lift kit. No change.

As above mentioned, the previously uncocked firing pin can not be cocked with safety the safety in position (2) during lifting and pushing down bolt handle.

But, lifting the handle with safety in position (2), switching safety to (3) and backwards to (2) again, then pushing handle down, will do the trick and the firing pin will cock.

I unstocked the barrel-trigger-assembly: It looks like the safety is hindering the SSS trigger from moving freely to engage. When I switch the safety from (2) to (3) with lifted bolt handle the silver part (that one that is, when pulling the trigger, is given free by the front part of the trigger (sear???)) rotates forward.

(By the way: I do have to apologize for my stumbling around when describing what I see. I am out of my depth, even in German it would be hard for me to explain all this, missing the correct technical vocabulary.)

What can I do to solve the problem? (I am quite sure, that my gunsmith will be of no help: Due to the only small number savage rifles over here in Germany, they are not his daily bread, especially with an after market trigger from SSS.)

re-adjust the trigger per the adjustment directions from SSS and see if that fixes it. There is an order to adjust the screws, so be sure to follow the directions in order.

Like MrFurious stated,
-With it properly adjusted you should NOT be able to put the safety into position 1 or 2 with the bolt down and de-cocked(as in after firing). Once you lift the bolt it should re-cock upon lifting, at which point the safety should be able to move into any position and remain cocked once the bolt is re-lowered( i just tried it to be sure with all my savage actions, which includes accutrigger, SSS, and Rifle basix triggers).

This alone tells me that the trigger is out of adjustment and could be your trouble. If it doesnt help it is still a problem, just one you didnt realize till now.

Also, the silver part you talk about should be rotated forward with the bolt de-cocked. If you open the bolt and it stays stuck into the trigger housing then it is binding, most likely from over tightening the center trigger mounting bolt. You can either loosen the bolt a tad till it frees up and lock tight it in place(medium strength) or bend out the trigger housing very slightly so it frees up. This may very well be the root cause of your trouble, but the trigger still needs adjusted correctly. Heres how it should look:

bolt open/bolt de-cocked/trigger in any position(1,2,3)
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps2b5dd01b.jpg

bolt closed/bolt cocked/trigger in any position(1,2,3)
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps7a26a979.jpg

bolt closed/ bolt de-cocked due to firing/trigger only goes into fire position(3)
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps6feb03e7.jpg

it sounds to me like when you open the bolt the trigger stays as it is in picture 3, which will not allow the action to re-cock upon closing the bolt. Be careful cause if you slam the bolt closed with a round in the chamber while it is doing this it could cause it to fire the live round....... Re adjust the trigger.

Yes, exactly, the sear is not moving far enough, just like picture 3, when safety in position (2).
Well, after finding the trigger adjustment instructions, I strictly went by them.
Not solving my problem.
So I did it again.

And this became a chain of trying and then trying again. I uninstalled the SSS trigger, cleaned it and checked for binding. But all this to no avail.
Now it is around 03:00 in the morning. And I am off to bed, tired and disappointed.

Thanks for your ideas, and all futher ideas and winks, how to solve the not-cocking-issue will be really appreciated.

Do you have the factory trigger? Maybe try installing it and see if it works correctly. If it doesn't, the problem lies somewhere else.

Before you have a complete mental break down, you might want to consider this: After the gun is fired, there is no reason to put the safety on before you re-cock it. When you put the safety on when it is "decocked", the safety blocks the trigger from moving. If the trigger cannot move, the sear cannot re-set. Put the safety on after the gun is cocked.

Jim, Can you put the safety on when the bolt is open with a SSS trigger?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Can you put the safety on when the bolt is open with a SSS trigger?

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Yes.

Bill

when the bolt is open you can do it with any trigger, but you should not be able to put the safety on with the bolt closed and the sear tripped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Before you have a complete mental break down, you might want to consider this: After the gun is fired, there is no reason to put the safety on before you re-cock it. When you put the safety on when it is "decocked", the safety blocks the trigger from moving. If the trigger cannot move, the sear cannot re-set. Put the safety on after the gun is cocked.

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That's true.
But the scenario I see, is a different one. I drive to the hunting area, the rifle is unloaded and decocked. Unloaded and unlocked, that's the way the rifle ideas stored.
Arriving I will move the safety to position (2), load the rifle and chamber one round. (This will keep the riffle uncocked at present, which is due to a male function.)
Before I climb up the live round is taken from the chamber and pushed down into the magazine.
On the high seat I will cycle one round into the chamber, again position (2).

De facto this leaves me with a chambered round and a uncocked firing pin.
Cycling the bolt with safety on position (2) should cock the firing pin. Am I right with this assumption?

Mental break down, here I come!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by germanhunter

That's true.
But the scenario I see, is a different one. I drive to the hunting area, the rifle is unloaded and decocked. Unloaded and unlocked, that's the way the rifle ideas stored.
Arriving I will move the safety to position (2), load the rifle and chamber one round. (This will keep the riffle uncocked at present, which is due to a male function.)
Before I climb up the live round is taken from the chamber and pushed down into the magazine.
On the high seat I will cycle one round into the chamber, again position (2).

De facto this leaves me with a chambered round and a uncocked firing pin.
Cycling the bolt with safety on position (2) should cock the firing pin. Am I right with this assumption?

Mental break down, here I come!

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All this talk of your technique is just fluff. The bottom line is that your safety and or trigger is/are currently malfunctioning and you need to get it fixed.

By the way, spelling is important. I really don't care about your "male function." :rolleyes: What scares me is your rifle that has a malfunction and is letting the firing pin go forward with a loaded round in the chamber.

You can try posting closeup photos of your trigger and safety, but maybe it is time to bite the financial bullet and have your LGS look at it.

Go get your rifle fixed, and then come back and start a new thread about your technique of when and how you chamber rounds when you are in the field. Until you fix your malfunctioning rifle, it really does not matter.

Pardon me for sounding like I am ranting, but I have worked with extremely dangerous things my entire career and I take safety very seriously.

What happens if you change your technique? Chamber a round with the safety off then click the safety on. If the trigger won't pull or bump fire I don't see a problem. A safety needs two positions, on and off. I like to rely on the safety between my ears more so than a mechanical device that can fail.

There is NOTHING wrong with your rifle! It is your anal technique that is causing you problems. If the rifle is unloaded, it ain't gonna get more safer because it is de-cocked and the safety is on.
Climb your tree with an unloaded gun. Then load it in the tree, close the bolt and put the safety on. When the fox gets in range, take the safety off and shoot it.

Thanks a lot for all that information and advice, most helpful.

Some things became clear to me. Enough said.