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Been reloading for years and this is a question I often ask people.
Is it possible to just a group with only 3 shots? I mean after the
barrel is fouled,etc..If one is shooting from a good solid rest,
it seems to me 3 would be enough to make a judgement call
as to if it is going to be a decent load or not..
Plus I am getting so I hate to waste the powder and bullets,,
So tell me your thoughts or ideas...John
I have had pretty good results with using the Lyman book, find the overall range of a particular powder & start right in the middle of that range. then, go 1 or 2gr in each direction (up1 or 2gr & down 1 or 2gr) from the mid point. In almost all cases, I have found the sweet spot by going in .5gr increments. Sometimes I even use .4gr or .3gr increments.
I can wholeheartedly appreciate the need to find the sweet spot without running thru 1/2lb of powder. It do get expensive!
Now, this has worked for me with .308", .277" & .257" bullets so far and about 8 to 9 times out of 10 I have stumbled upon that all elusive accuracy node.
But that's my rifles. You might do better.... or worse. Maybe some of the BR & 1000yd guys will chime in and have a better idea. They've been thru most of these procedures already.
Good luck with it.
Frank in Fla
Frank, I don't think he was asking how to work up a load. More, do get enough information with 3 shots to realize whether or not you have an accurate load. I could be wrong though.
Acemisser,
I use 3 shot groups to find my node. With a solid rest it seems to work out well for me.
Many Benchrest shooters will only shoot 3 shot groups when tuning loads. I also shoot 3 shot groups when tuning a load. I know I got a good load when all three shots go into the same hole, and you can not tell where one bullet entered from another. As they say 3 shots proves the load, 5 shots proves the shooter.
I'm not real clear on how you do this with 3 shots.
How's about a little insight on that?
I use 3 shots AFTER I find the load I'm looking for. That can take a little more than 3 shots as I'm sure y'all are aware.
Enlighten me. I want to learn that, if y'all don't mind....
Frank in Fla
3 shot groups, not just 3 shots total.Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla
That's what I thought.... 3 shot groups. I thought 3 shots period. I was thinking wow.... these guys are good!
I thought everyone used 3 shots (as a group) to check the load for an accuracy load (or node). I think some folks use 5 but after you find out your sweet spot or accuracy node, doesn't most everybody load up a bunch of that particular charge & shoot? Wheather it's 3 shots or 5, it'll still shoot the same POA / POI i would think.
I have a headache.....
I started out doing 5 shot groups but if I'am on paper, 3 shots will do. After that, I tweak that load till they all go in the same hole or real close.
I always made up a box with 5 shots of differing loads, found a node then started over closer to the accurate node with 5 each at .2 of a grain in each direction until I was satisfied with the results.
Now with age sometimes knowledge follows(only sometimes not always), I do 3 rounds at a time, find the happy point then load up 10-15 and see if I get 3 good groups of 5,if I do then I will load a few boxes and call it good to go,but I never stop searching for that elusive one hole target.I want one just like " ONESHOTS ".
I use 3 shot groups to see which combination of components works best in that rifle. It might take a couple trips to the range before I settle on a favorite. This "best" group proves how well the rifle shoots. Then I'll load about 20 rounds and go to the range to shoot 5 shot groups. This will prove how well I shoots.
I appreciate your replies...But I am saying you load only 3 rounds of a certain powder weight and bullet
and shoot these..Like say 34 grains and the bullet...3 only and 3 of 35 grain,3 of 36 grains,eyc same
OAL,primer,etc.......From a good steady rest,shoot 3.....let the barrel cool,shoot the next 3 rounds,and so
on.....Why load 5 if the 3 aren't gonna shoot? Like I said,I hate wasteing the powder and bullets...
If one load of 3 looks good,try it again..If it still looks good,maybe add a tenth or minus a tenth and try it
over..If it still is good then maybe load your 5 and see what you get...It should be still good....
Does this make any since to you now? Sorry Frank about the head ache...lol
If you're still in load developement 3 is plenty. That's all I use. Also, I use .3gr increments. ie - 45.0, 45.3, 45.6, 45.9 - and so on. I think we had a discussion on another page about increments to use. Smaller cases - smaller increment..... Bigger case - like a .270 or so and use 3/10th of a grain increments.
But, to answer your Q - I use 3 rounds per measured charge for my OCD tests. Works fine & if by chance you end up with a flyer or flinch, I'm sure you'll be able to tell if you're in an accuracy node or sweet spot or whatever you'd like to term it.
I think keeping the rifle locked in position is as important. You want your rifle as stable as possible to get the best idea of what each charge is doing. When you get in the groove, you'll know. You see a 3 hole cloverleaf or a raggedy hole, you jump up & do the "yes!" dance....
Standard procedure....
Good luck with it
Frank in Fla
Sometimes 3, most of the time 4.
You guys are all doing this the hard way, to start I dont preload, I load right at the range. This is the BEST way to work up a load, and if your looking for the utmost in accuracy it is a must. You dont have to have fancy equipement, I have a cheap old RCBS partner press I mounted on a aluminum plate, and I attach it to a bench with c clamps.
With a new barrel I start out with powder, and I find the sweat spot for that day. I dont get real finicky on powder charges as they will cahnage as the day goes on, as temprature, and humity change. I load up 3 rounds of one powder change and see what happens, if it looks good I may go up or down a number and see what happens. After I find where the powder shooting looks OK, then I start with seating depth, this is where the magic happens. Again I will take what I sated with and start moving in or out by .005 untill it starts shooting good, then I will start making changes by .002, then I will go back and play with powder. When I find where it shoots best I stop, because I know that they will be slight changes when the next time I shoot.
There are some benchrest shooters that will take this a step further, and shot 1 shot groups. They will shoot 1 shot, and go out and look at the target, and tweek seating depth, and powder sharges, and shot another 1 shot at a diferent target, and go and look at the target. What they are looking for is the way the bullet will go through the paper, there is a point where the bullet hole will be smaller. This is what they are looking for. I dont do this, and I have been advised by top leval shooters not to do this, as yes it can produces super small groups but the chances of it falling appart is greater. I dont try to ultra tune the load, just get to a point where it shoots good. Being consistant is better than shooting small groups.
On a good day, I'm happy if I even hit the cardboard target backer.....
Hey 82Guy - if you're loading onsite, would humidity be a concern? I mean, wouldn't the propellant absorb humidity miosture & change the burn rate & ballistics of it?
Just curious. I'm alright with loading on the bench & fire 'em at the range. For me, I can then spend the whole day at the range, shoot 3 to 6 rounds, let the barrel cool & fire a different rifle, let that barrel cool, bring up rifle no. 3.... and so on. In between all that, it affords me time to shoot the breeze with some of the old timers. Indeed, they are a wealth of information.
Frank in Fla
Acemisser,
Personally here is my deal.
I don't clean bores, unless they tell me to; no "fouling shot" needed.
I do shoot 3 in order to record: Velocity, ES, SD, temp, pressure, comments.
I don't shoot for groups until I have decided on a load, or load "area" from the 3-round tests. THEN is when I go to 5-round shots.
No not at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla
Anytime you open a can of powder it is going to change to the atmosphere, no matter if it is in your house, or at the range. The change is not a concern, but powder will weight heavier in the morning, and as the day goes on it will weight lighter, even in your AC/Heated house. The powder goes throught this cycle over an over. I have shot powder that was from a 50lbs barrel, (Old 8208 pull down powder.) that was placed into 8 lbs jugs, (some 15 years ago.) and it shoots the same today as it did 15-20 years ago.
that would be great to load at the range. Would save alot of components by not having to load more than you need and then just shooting them to shoot because it takes too much effort to disassemble a loaded round.
I load ten rounds and shoot three groups. Last being four shots. Just using three shots has never worked for me. Some times I have a flyer or move or do some thing dumb and mess up the group. When I get to the third string I have a good idea if it's going to work or not. The four rounds tells the tail. I am not saying this is the way to do it. It is just the way I do it. It works for me.
Now you got the idea, now make it happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by supergolfer18
I agree... but only to the extent that you also track the velocity. Having 3 shots place a fair demand on the ES and SD (for that group) on a small sample. I want 3 shots which represent a reasonable range of values, otherwise 5 shots is better as I am going to do all I can to take myself out of the variability (so that implies you can take your time and make the best possible guarantee that your POA is identical as possible between shots). That means I'm not trying to prove my ability, but the rifle with that load.Quote:
Originally Posted by 82boy
So... in practice:
[1] Test your loads with a chrono (why wouldn't you?)
[2] 3 shots... look at the velocities.
> Reasonable, move on of finish 2 more shots as desired.
> Not reasonable, fire 2 more shots and take the 3 with the least delta on the velocities.
[3] Use the best possible setup on the bench you have available to help insure the POA is as identical as you can make it (better eqipment = better results).
I don't believe in 3 shots or any number of shots without the use of a precision chronograph. Say we're using 3-shot groups and you have 43.3 grains with 1" vertical, 43.6 grains 1.5" vertical and 43.9 grains 1.8" vertical.
Of course you'd use the 43.3 grains right? What if you had a chronograph and you saw 2,800, 2,810 and 2,790 fps for and ES of 20 fps with the 43.3 gr. For the 43.6 grains you see 2,820, 2810 and 2780 fps for an ES of 40 fps. If you'd had the same MV consistency between the 43.3 and 43.6 grain rounds, the 43.6 grain rounds might very well have beaten the 43.3 grain rounds. It could be that you were a bit careless with the three rounds you made up for 43.6 grains?
Bottom line is not knowing the MV of each round shot and correlating it to the point of impact on the target renders the other testing suspect or useless... IMO.
same here, by the second shot you already have a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by 82boy