Introduction and suggestions

Hello All, new to this forum and bolt guns bigger than 22lr. But I just recently acquired an older Model 11 in .223 Remington. It is a pre-AccuTrigger with a flat receiver.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/m...9-06_575-1.jpg

I'm looking to spend about $1000 in updating and upgrading it. The $1000 does not include the optic. Here is what I plan on doing:
1. Shilen 16" barrel in 223 Wylde, trying to minimize my reloading. Still debating between a varmint or bull contour
2. Stock, looking for suggestions here. I'm looking to take this rifle in the woods with me.
3. Install a DBM just because, looks like CDI Precision is the only one that I've been able to find.
4. Trigger, upgrade or polish existing group?
5. EGW 20 MOA rail.

Any input would be appreciated. I plan on doing the work myself. Thanks for reading.

Welcome to the forum always glad to have new members!
1. Why a 16" Barrel?
2. Any stock with the 4.275" screw spacing for a Savage model 10, 11, 12, 14, or 16 will fit it.
3. No help from me with that I like blind mags.
4. I've worked on one of the older triggers and with some patience and the right instructions it turned out fine. If you upgrade there are a number of triggers available. I've heard really good things about the one from Sharp Shooters Supply.
5. How far will a 16" .223 Wylde reach? Might not have any need for a 20 MOA base.

I guess my first question would be this: What exactly are you trying to do/build with this rifle? To me it sounds as if you're trying to turn a bolt gun into an AR carbine. My second question would be why spend the money on a premium high quality barrel only to ruin it with a deliberately sloppy chamber? Third, if you fully intend to stick with the 16" barrel length I can guarantee you won't be needing a 20MOA base.

ARs, I just reread my post and I can see that I'm that transparent;)

But I'm looking to build a yote/hog gun for New England. So realistically the farthest I'd be shooting is 400yds on closed logging roads. I figure I can get away with a sub 20" barrel. But am open to suggestions.

223 Wylde is what I'm using for my upper in HP service rifle, I take it that it would not carry over to a bolt gun.

So if you had $1k to spend, what would you do to this rifle.

Well, the first thing I would do is go out and shoot it to see what it's capable as-is. You never know, it may be plenty accurate for your needs as it sits which would let you take the money you were going to spend on a barrel and put it towards a better stock, scope, or whatever. You can always cut the factory barrel down to a shorter length if you really feel the need to.

The only real difference between the .223 Rem, Wylde and 5.56 chambers is the leade (throat) length and the 5.56 will have a slightly longer headspace (2-3 thousandths) to help prevent jams caused by dirt/debris that finds its way into the chamber area of a service rifle. In terms of accuracy, the leade on the 5.56 is generally to long to seat even the longest bullets out far enough to reach the lands, which results in a huge jump which isn't beneficial in terms of achieving the best accuracy.

Now if you were just going to shoot factory loaded ammunition I would say you probably wouldn't notice a huge difference as you've already lost considerable control over the consistency and potential accuracy of the ammunition. Since you plan to reload and we're dealing with a .223, I take that to mean you're doing so to get better quality ammo tailored specifically to your rifle with the goal being to achieve better accuracy. As such it wouldn't make much sense to deliberately go with a chamber that's going to force a longer jump to the lands and likely hurt it's accuracy potential.

That isn't to say a Wylde chambered barrel is guaranteed to shoot like crap, rather that it's going to be more of a crap shoot as to whether or not it will be an exceptional shooter.

I would change the trigger and put a short action caliber barrel on it with optics for what you will use it most for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

ARs, I just reread my post and I can see that I'm that transparent;)

So if you had $1k to spend, what would you do to this rifle.

---

First thing I would do is to make this gun a 22-250 or a 6br instead of adding a second 223.

I would make the barrel a 22" or 24" magnum contour(Youre not prarie dog hunting so it wont heat up too fast, so no sense in lugging the extra barrel weight).(approx $300)

The stock would be a synthetic/composite stock, such as a B&C Duramax($140) or Mcmillan A-3(nice but much more money)

If you want a CDI then you can send the stock to them to inlet(not sure of cost but probably atleast $300 including hardware)

I would add a Sharpshooter Supply trigger or a Rifle Basix SAV-1 trigger(both are around $100)

No need for a 20moa base if you are shooting only out to 400 yards. Just get a 0moa EGW base.


If you are set on a 223 though I would still build it close to the same way. Actually I just built a 223 almost exactly like i mentioned, only I used a centerfeed stock and the factory Savage DBM hardware. My barrel is also 20" in length.

The rifle shoots like garbage using various ammo and different shooters (one of the shooters a Presidents 100) off a bag. At 100 the rifle is averaging a 2" pattern. I'll shoot my WOA service upper and can clover leaf it off a bag. The front sight is a little bent as well.

So thats when I started researching what to do with it.

But for $80, I think that I'm still ahead of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

So if you had $1k to spend, what would you do to this rifle.

---

LOL Well since you asked I'd turn it into this in .308

http://savagearms.com/firearms/model/11LONGRANGEHUNTER

Or to be more truthful, I'd just buy that in 25-06 instead of modifying the one you had...
But that's just me. After 6 actions and 14 barrels I've started to use the KISS aproach to new toys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

ARs, I just reread my post and I can see that I'm that transparent;)

But I'm looking to build a yote/hog gun for New England. So realistically the farthest I'd be shooting is 400yds on closed logging roads. I figure I can get away with a sub 20" barrel. But am open to suggestions.

223 Wylde is what I'm using for my upper in HP service rifle, I take it that it would not carry over to a bolt gun.

So if you had $1k to spend, what would you do to this rifle.

---

Go .243. I think if I was going to do what you'd proposed, I'd just as soon go with a Mossberg MVP; you'd at least be able to use your AR magazines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

So if you had $1k to spend, what would you do to this rifle.

---

I'd sell it and buy another AR.

Pdog, how come a 22 or 24 barrel? What do you not like about your 20. I'll look into that barrel profile you suggested. I'm fixated on 223 at the moment to keep thing simple for me.

I've got enough ARs at the moment... I still have a bunch of uppers and lowers unfinished.

This is a fun project for me where I want to learn something new.

Build something different. I know you want to keep reloading simple but if you can reload .223 you can reload just about anything else all you need is the appropriate die. Personally I would build a .260 Remington with at least a 24" barrel and what ever contour you want. Then you would have almost the perfect all around rifle for just about any need. 85 grainers for the yotes, the 120s for those hogs and the 140s for deer and even elk if you wanted to. You will have to hold way less windage when compared to the .308 and hit just as hard at 400 and harder past that.

Welcome aboard :)
Check and tinker all the normal stuff before giving up on it as a shooter. If you look at it as a project it'll be a ton of fun and educational as well.

1) Is the barrel and tang free floated? If not relieve some of the material in these areas of the stock, Cost= a sheet of sandpaper.
2)Epoxy bed the action to the stock. Cost = a couple of bolts with the heads cut off, some big rubber bands, a roll of painters tape, can of shoe polish and a tube of JB weld.
3) Check to see if the trigger is a 3 screw. If so adjust it till crisp and light. If not either have it drilled and tapped for a sear adjustment screw, replace it with one that is (about $35 if you can find one) or install an aftermarket unit.
4) Add some good bases rings and optics. cost is up to you.
5) If it still wont shoot, re barrel, pick any caliber you want. just be aware that if you deviate from .223 the bolt head will have to be changed to correspond to your caliber selection. the bolt head swap is really no big deal. cost again is up to you anywhere from $35 for a used takeoff to whatever you are willing to spend on a custom tube.
6) Once you decide on a caliber then try to find a Detachable Box Mag stock and hardware to match. (the older flatback staggered feed DBMs had a few problems staying put under recoil and sometimes need a little tweaking)

If you treat this as a learning project you might be amazed what you come up with.
Here is the evolution of a plain Jane 243 model 11 very similar to yours. First to a copy of an American classic by modifying it with items obtained at a hardware store and using a plastic bucket to make white line spacers. Then on to a 16" barreled .308 knock around carbine with a shortened length of pull and DBM I put together. Most of the parts I got here in the classifieds. It was very budget friendly with the cutting crowning and threading being the only outside smithing services I needed. I still need to touch up the camo paintjob and fill in the holes where I relocated the swivel studs but it's a breeze to carry and a great shooter.
It started off looking like yours and then I first turned it into this American classic copy in .243
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...dmine005-1.jpg

and then currently to this .308 carbine. the possibilitys with a Savage are nearly endless and similarly to an AR they are like Barbies for men.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...100_1205-1.jpg

What everyone has missed it seems is that he is hunting the dense woodlands of northern New England where I also hunt. I have never seen a tote (logging road to you outlanders) road that had a straight section 400 yds long. If it were me I would rebarrel to a 20 inch .223 for coyote but .308 for that occasional shot at deer. Thats a decent looking stock you have, I would keep it and just bed it and install pillars. Keep the barrel and tang free floated. Maybe even shorten the existing barrel to 20 inches. An aftermarket trigger. I use fixed power scopes, no need for a variable up here. 6X max. Cheaper and less prone to breakage. Power lines are where you will get the long shots here, not woodlands. You are talking $1000 but for $500 you can have an excellent rifle with excellent glass. I hunted with an 18 1/2 inch barrel mauser actioned custom for many yrs with a 4x Weaver and walnut stock in 7x57 and until I made a Savage 7x57 it was my hunting rifle. My 2 cents worth.

El Lobo

Thanks for the input El Lobo! The logging roads I'm using we've shot 400 with elevation loss from peak to peak. I'm also shooting in the late fall through the winter. I can not imagine being able to do a 400 shot come spring/summer. I wish there were power lines on/near the property that we could shoot on.

Time permitting, I'm going to break down the rifle this weekend to try BHJ's suggestions as well.

First of all welcome to the Botherhood of the Barrel Nut.

Here is my solution to similar situations while hunting coyotes in Missouri. I set out to build a rifle that is both accurate, compact and light weight for those long hikes between calling stands.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...entwin/001.jpg

I had the factory sporter barrel cut to 18" and recrowned, installed a SSS trigger, bedded and painted the tupperware stock, and then mounted a Bushnell Legend 2x7 scope in it. It will easily shoot 1 MOA with 60 gr. VMAXs.

Since you are new to Savages, I will demonstate how bad this affiction can be.

Above is the description of how this rifle looks in the late fall and winter.

In the spring it gets torn apart and reconfigured as a target rifle, as follows

CBI 26" SS varmint wgt barrel in 6MMBR
Bell and Carlson Duramax stock
Vortex Viper 6x20 scope

For deer season it gets the following

PacNor 24" SS Hvy Sporter wgt barrel in 250AI
Bell and Carlson Duramax stock
Mueller APT4.5x14 scope.

BTW, by purchasing most of these parts on this websight, I have about $1000.00 in all of the parts and pieces.

So it doesn't really matter how you do your first modification. You will do more in the future

BHJ spelled it out very well. I still like that stock you already have. There is some to learn for barrel and caliber changes which you can get here. The only DBM I have is on my Winchester mod 88 and I like its convenience but I can live without it. Of course you have to understand that after the project is done you have to provide pictures. Its one of the unspoken rules of the Brotherhood of the Barrel Nut. Where in NEW England do you hunt? I am in New Hampshire. Sounds like your in Maine. If you decide you don't want to keep that stock I will make an offer. Or, if you join the forum you can sell it in the classified ads.

El Lobo

I'd second BHJ's thoughts about the trigger. If you have a three-screw trigger, you can adjust that so that you have a perfect (IMHO) hunting trigger:

• 2.5-3 pound pull (don't want it too light for hunting)
  
• no discernible trigger movement or creep
  
• a release like breaking glass
  
• and no apparent overtravel.
  

If you have a three-screw trigger, you've just saved $100 that you can put toward the next Savage that you will need to feed your addiction. (...and yes, the rest of the forum members and I are very "enabling" and will do nothing to stop this addiction!)

The other thing you should remember is that a walking-around-the-woods hunting rifle will get banged up no matter how careful you are. Don't turn it into something too good to use!

The stock you have is perfectly usable and stiff enough to be very effective. I took an older wood stock, probably similar to yours, added pillars and bedded it with JB Weld. I also added 2 crossbolts and a wrist pin, cut an inch off the LOP and installed a Pachmayr Decelerator pad (total LOP reduction was only .5" because the new pad is thicker than the old hard rubber one), and refinished the stock with Pennsylvania Cherry stain and several coats of Watco Danish oil (Dark Walnut tinted). It looks nice, but if I scratch it up in the woods, I can touch it up easily enough.

As far as a DBM goes, I'd stay away from a factory staggerfeed DBM. You mentioned the CDI...Check to see if Sharpshooter can inlet your existing stock for that brand. That will cost you about $50.00 plus shipping.

Those are some of my thoughts. Others have different thoughts, and none of them are bad. Consider what everyone says, and then pick and choose what YOU want to do based on your finances, your skill at doing it yourself, your projected use based on your situation, and what YOU want the end product to be and look like. There are very few bad answers, and I am sure you will end up with a great rifle regardless of how you do it.

Half the fun is the journey, not the destination!

Be sure to let us know how it is going and to post photos!

Good Luck, and keep asking questions!

I'm in MA, but have a friend that owns a camp in ME. I just got back into things recently and am basically starting from scratch.

I took a look at the trigger and it's a 2 screw. So I'll order another trigger. In the meanwhile, I'm gonna research JBWeld and am going to try that first. I'll keep this thread updated as I progress.

2 cents more from me. I'm brand new to Savages but I've been reading about them for years. As an AR guy with unfinished uppers and lowers you are already into the fun of modular. It gets even better with a Savage; but the very attainable goal becomes creating a wickedly accurate rifle by NOT spending $1000. Many have already shared their experiences of building rifles or changing existing rifles simply by shopping this site's classifieds section. My personal opinion is that you're on the right track with going down big honkin jeep's checklist. You can easily throw $1000 + towards this project or any other; but with your Savage you can have AR type fun while you tinker and achieve $1000 performance for much less.

Have fun and welcome aboard!

Crashed, I live in Nashua on the Mass. line. You are welcome to my barrel nut wrench and barrel clamp blocks and some didling around if you can make the trip. I don't plan on any more builds but if I do the wrenches are cheap enough. I do suggest an action wrench though instead of the blocks. As for a three screw, there might be someone out there that has a take off when they installed an aftermarket or contact Jim Briggs at Northlander. He advertises here so check his ad for contact info. Yes the old three screw is a good trigger when adjusted and easy to do. Jim ocassionaly has a threescrew take off available for $25-30 with instructions which are also available on this website. There is a recent article available on how to do it, with pictures for we intelectualy impaired.

El Lobo

So I've had a chance to thoroughly go over the rifle and test fire it again. After reading this forum and all of your advice I have been able to get the groups smaller, about 1.25". I'll post those pics later when I sort through the targets.

Here is what I found out
- The rear sight was shot, the more I shot the larger the groups got till I hit about 2.5". We threw a scope on the rifle and the groups tightened up.
- The tang was not free floating, I removed about 2 mil of material around that area.

I still want to do the JB weld bedding job at some point before the fall and see what that will do.

I also bought another Savage in the process with the money I did not use on this one to match my other black rifles.

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/m...-47-34_337.jpg

Quote:

---

so if you had $1k to spend what would you do

---

Buy a Savage Predator.

Try cleaning the .223 barrel with montana copper killer.I will bet that it is real coppered up as the original owner probably just shot it and didnt realize he was plating the grooves and lands . Alot of used rifles may look clean,but are really fouled with copper and carbon.I know this from experience. If you choose a trigger,I like the sss trigger the best.The rifle basix is good but freds trigger is way more sensitive if you like a light trigger.Like other posters say,bed it at least.There is a tutorial on here.