My 30'06 is giving me an ulcer... *Thanks, but I found it... unfortuneatly.

Last week at the range. My home rolled ammo that has ALWAYS been reliably accurate in the past is suddenly looking like a buckshot pattern.
using 53.4gr of IMR 4350 with a 150gr Nos BT and I can't get anything to resemble grouping. Now, previous week, I was shooting heavily loaded 168gr Hornady Match bullets with 56.2 of RL-19. I noticed some unusually hard hitting recoil but, paid it no attention. these were the last rounds of that day.
Back to the next week.... My 150's won't group. At ALL. The first thing I considered was the scope. Maybe loose mounts, etc...
Break out the tools. Nope. No problem there.
Then I thought, scope is screwed. It must be internal to my recently purchase Vortex Crossfire. BUT... before I condemn the scope, I take an allen wrench & check the action screws.
WOW.... What jerk made these things so tight? Oh, wait a minute..... That would have been me. But I know I didn't tighten them to the point of having the allen wrench cut my hand when I try to loosen them.
I thought Hmmmm.... Maybe the hot loads from last week had something to do with this. ANyway, I get the action screws loose & re-tighten them. Snug, not tight.
The next 15 rounds fired in 3 round groups are all VERTICAL. Prior to resetting the action screw the groups had a bit more of a horizontal look to them. Now, they're vertical. All of them.

Jump to - back at the farm. I take the rifle apart & look at EVERYTHING with a bright light & magnifying glass. Nothing noted. No cracks, bedding is still where it's supposed to be, recoil lug is there, recoil block is there. Reassemble.

I tightened the action screws snuggly. Forward screw first, then the rear screw. Slowly & sequentially. 1/8 turn each until snug. I'll be going shooting later today if not Saturday. I'm quite curious why this is happening.
Prior to shooting the 168's, the 150's were grouping nicely. Within 3/4 of an inch type groups - After the 168's, I couldn't get 'em together. I really do think the 168's and the associated recoil, which caused me to need a chiropractor the next day, had something to do with the poor grouping & action screws being horribly tight.

Which brings me to why I decided to post this "novel" here at Savage Addiction Central. I figure there's gotta be about 3, 648 years of knowledge & experience with some of the hard core Savage shooters / builders. I thought why should I enjoy this anomaly all by myself. Maybe some of y'all would like to throw your 2 cents in & voice an opinion as to what is / has happened to my prized & beloved Mossy Oak camo, 30.06. The one with the recycled Leggo plastic stock. Let's hear form anyone that didn't fall asleep reading this rather lengthy rant.
Thanks. I do genuinely appreciate any info any of y'all reply with.

Frank in Fla..... (outside, kicking the wall with frustration)

have you scrubbed the bore? After getting the copper out, retorque the stock. tighten both screws to about 5 inlbs. Then stand the rifle on its buttpad and pop it on the ground to make sure the recoil lug is back against the stock. Then tighten the front screw down about 40inlbs and then the rear about the same. Shoot some groups loosening the rear screw until groups tighten up. Everyone does this differently but this seems to work for me

Check your bolt head to see if you've cracked it or blown out the ejector pocket. Blowing out the ejector pocket isn't that huge a deal but if you get cracks like this it's time to replace your bolt head. I did this with hot loaded 22-250 rounds. Notice the ejector pocket is blown out and there are cracks around the base of the bolt head shaft where it meets the end.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94...o/Bolthead.jpg

I would send that bolt head back to savage to show them what is happening to there bolt heads.Stay away from these hot loads as there is no legitimate use for them other than destroying the action and causing you personal injury or even death.

Thanks for your input, guys. I like to think I'm pretty thorough when I clean my rifles after a day at the range. S-O-P for barrels would be a geneous amount of Hoppes on a patch, drag it thru the barrel & let it sit for 5 minutes the first time to get the carbon & powder stuff loose. All subsequent patches are dragged thru at about 30 to 60 minute intervals. I find the longer you let Hoppes set, the more copper it will lift. The last patch will show a very light blue tint when clean.
Then, I have to fire about 10 rounds to settle it down the next time I use it. I guess that's part of the addiction / compulsion.

I'm leaning more toward action screws. I have never had issue with them in the past. I guess I can't say that now.
Anyone want to give me a start point on torque / tightening the action screws?
In the past, I snug 'em up & about a 1/4 turn more. Nice and snug, not bolt screaming, wrench twisting tight. By virtue of the screw adjustment last week & getting vertical stringing kinda sorta makes me think action screws.

Everything else is in order.... floating barrel, tang is clear, barrel so clean & shiny you can shave with your reflection.... sort of.

What say ye, Oh keepers of the sacred knowledge? Tell me some secret adjustment I don't know about yet....
Thanks,

Frustrated Frank in Fla.

What kind of stock and how is it bedded?

Charlie-

Junk And with epoxy. That would be the short answer.

It's one of those Mossy Oak Camo plastic Savage stock that we've all grown to love...... or not. Ya see, the real difficulty is this rifle has been shooting perfectly. 150gr Nosler BT's grouping 5 rounds you can hide behind a quarter on the 100yd line. 165's are not quite as tight but close. Maybe 5 rounds inside of a 1" red dot on the target.
Everthing was pretty much one with the universe. Outta nowhere, it's acting more like a shotgun shooting 000 buck pellets, one at a time. All over the place. Last weekend at the range, after 15 maybe 20 rounds fired and I put it back in the truck. It was embarassing me.

I looked for cracks in the stock, cracks in the action, cracks in my head. :o I just finished cleaning the barrel, again, just in case I missed some clump of copper. Double checked the hole in the end of the barrel - made sure it was clear & round (crown)...

I'll be going shooting tomorrow morning at first light. My "troubled" 30'06 is first up at bat to see if anything I did to it made any difference. If not, I gotta extra Leupold scope I'm bringing along. It's gotta 4 week old Vortex Crossfire on it now. I would really like to see it stay there, too.

I'll keep y'all posted on what transpires tomorrow. If you see a guy on the 6 o'clock news being led off in cuffs because he heaved his rifle in the lake, it just may be me...... :o

Frank in Fla

I got this somewhere
Don't know if it was here or not
Might give you some help on torque valvues
Jack

SAVAGE Recommended Torque values

What is the torque spec for my action screws?
Accustock models - 40 inch pounds (including wedge screw)
Centerfire w/ synthetic stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ wood stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ laminate stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Rimfire w/ any stock - 15 inch pounds

Thanks JW.

That'll get me started in the right direction....... I hope. I appreciate your help. I had seen that before but couldn't remember where I saw it.

Thanks again to everyone. ;)

I'll post a line or 2 after I get home tomorrow. The weather is supposed to be really nice tomorrow, too. A front will be passing thru & will bring the humidity down & keep it from feeling like it's 6 degrees hotter than H3!!. Very unusual for Florida this time of year.

Thanks again...

Frank in Fla

I would suggest you try a serious copper remover like sweets and a nylon brush if you have never done it before. Removing copper can be a lot of work and I was amazed how much came out some of my barrels which had previously only been cleaned with Hoppes #9.

Now I follow up the Sweets with Bore shine (non embedding abrasive) and I have been very satisfied with the results.

The comments regarding being sure to seat the recoil lug against its abutment are right on target. Make sure your synthetic stock has not warped. I had one that did and was putting a side load on the barrel. I had a Remington where the trigger was acting as recoil lug due to inadequate clearance (it was a 223, not too much recoil). Be sure that the barrel remains free floated even with some load on the forearm. I don't agree with the $ bill test, I like t use some cardboard about 1/16" thick. Those plastic stocks are very flexible and if the stock touches the barrel you will have trouble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

Thanks for your input, guys. I like to think I'm pretty thorough when I clean my rifles after a day at the range. S-O-P for barrels would be a geneous amount of Hoppes on a patch, drag it thru the barrel & let it sit for 5 minutes the first time to get the carbon & powder stuff loose. All subsequent patches are dragged thru at about 30 to 60 minute intervals. I find the longer you let Hoppes set, the more copper it will lift. The last patch will show a very light blue tint when clean.

Frustrated Frank in Fla.

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Ya know Westcliffe - You're about the 4th, maybe 5th person to mention the excellent copper removal abilities of Sweet's. I guess y'all can't be wrong. I believe I'll include a bottle on my next Midway or Natchez order. I had a guy at the range tell me about how he brought his Rem 700 to a smith because it wouldn't co-operate. Groups opened up with no known reason. He couldn't say enough about Sweet's.

The thing is, after checking & double checking all of the basics.... Barrel float - you can stick a 1x2 between the barrel & the stock (well,... maybe a piece of base trim).... I insure generous clearances around the barrel, tang & the innards where necessary. I know how temperamental these Savages can be. Everything checked out right up until I got to the action screws. I knew good & well I didn't make 'em that tight. I kid you not.... I had a mark in my hand from loosening them with an allen wrench. I don't understand WHY they tightened, I don't really know if the 168's with RL-19 had anything to do with it, I'm not sure if it was the scope gone south. I do know the grouping changed from buckshot pattern to vertical lines as soon as I loosened the screws & retightened them.
I can't help think that's a clue to this mystery.

The one on the right is my baby.... Now it's DRIVING ME NUTZ!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07243.jpg[/img]]http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...a/DSC07243.jpg
Any other rifle of mine & I'd stuffed it in a corner & played with it at my liesure. I'm a fan of sort of the '06 & this one is my favorite.

WITH VERY TIGHT ACTION SCREWS>>>
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07362.jpg[/img]][img width=576 height=768]http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07362.jpg[/img]

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07361.jpg[/img]][img width=576 height=768]http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w424/fgwinfla/DSC07361.jpg[/img]
AFTER LOOSENING THE SCREWS>>>>
Here's a couple "before & after" screw loosening. Note the difference. Usually, the loads used here are .75 to 1.00 inch grouping. I have never had this rifle shoot this poorly. Not evenin the wind.
I didn't make it to the range today due to some of my guys wanting to work today & bring a project back on schedule. Tomorrow being Dad's Day, I'll be at the range for the day..... WITHOUT my cell phone, of course.

By the way.... Guys at Savage Shooters,... Meet my favorite '06... '06, meet the guys. Introductions are proper & important, dontcha think?

Later all... I feel a nap coming on. I owe it to myself to have one and dang it, no one is going to deprive me of it. Not even my 30'06.

Frank in Fla

Frank, I have tested about a dozen different coper removers on high copper content pennys, none of them did anything more than remove the tarnish. Then I tried KG brand copper remover, it is the only one that actually pitted the penny. KG also claims it will not harm the barrel.

Charlie in Florida.

Sweets has worked great great for me, work it back and forth on a fairly tight patch with a jag in short stroking motion for a couple minutes. I just make sure I get it all out using brake cleaner on patch's then oil her down real well when done.

Regards,
Dan

Thanks to all that threw their 2 cents in. As luck would have it, it turned out to be the scope..... AGAIN. This will be the 3rd time it's going back to Vortex for warranty work & I'm pretty sure I don't want it back.

1st time - A.O wasn't reading correct after 1st day of shooting. (100yd line reading 300 yds)
2nd time Magnification wheel spins freely. stripped screw.
NOW - Won't hold POA / Zero. Drifts to where ever it wants.

I'm not real happy with Vortex right now.... The customer service rep told me in an email last time, they would possibly upgrade to a better scope if trouble persisted.

I'm not sure I like that kind of logic. Sell me junk... when I find out it's junk, sell me a more expensive piece of junk.
I guess I'll send ANOTHER email to them & find out what to do next.

Thanks again to y'all that tried to help.

Pissed off Frank in Fla.

Call Vortex and make sure they know it is the third time it has failed you. The Crossfires are basically junk IMO, but the Diamondback and Viper are some seriously good scopes.

I would ask Vortex to allow you to upgrade to a better model instead of getting the same scope in return. I know a couple people who have done this after returning a Crossfire numerous times and Vortex has allowed them to upgrade to a 6.5-20x50 Viper for about another $100!

They have the serial number of your scope to prove it has been returned numerous times.

Thanks for the info, Pdog. The young lady at Vortex & I know each other on a first name basis since we've emailed many times & spoke by phone a few times.

I just sent an email to Vortex expressing my displeasure. It was real tough leaving out the curse words.

I requested a better scope for a decent cost OR take back the Crossfire, the 30mm rings I don't need any longer & add $50 for Mylanta to my refund. This whole ordeal has been aggravating & disappointing.

Thanks again to y'all for the input. I'm off to hit the sack. Busy week coming up.

Frank in Fla.