2" difference between cold shot versus warm

Hello guys, first post. Last fall I bought a MKIIF with accutrigger. It was mainly to use teaching my nephew's 12 yr old son about shooting. But I've had a lot of fun shooting it as well. ;D 3 weeks ago, I put a scope on it to use in a little friendly competition at a local get together.

Here's the pattern that it does. Cold, first shot will be about 2" low. Second shot will be about 1" low. It will be on zero by 3rd or 4th shot. And it will stay on zero while continuing to shoot. To rule me out, I had 2 other experienced shooters test it over the weekend, with similar results. (One of them owns a MKIIF, and he said his cold shot averages 3/4' high). Scope is fine, mounts and bases are tight, stock isn't touching barrell, and action screws are tight.

I can't say wether it has done this all along, because it had only been used as a plinker, until I put the scope on it, and shot it from a bench.

Admittedly, I haven't cleaned it for awhile(150 rounds?). I was reminded of that over the weekend when I had 2 extraction failures for the first time, using CCI Minimags. That's all I've shot in it. ;) I gave it a good cleaning yesterday, and hope that will help some. ;D

I'm just curious if this is normal. Any one else have similar results?

Thank you.

Try testing it with as many different brands and types of ammo as you can. Usually slower ammo (subsonic or competition) tends to work better, but not always.

Something I have heard that is supposed to "cure" that problem, is a pressure point. I have never tried it, but here's how it works. Take the stock off, and somewhere on the inside of the forend, withing about 2" of the front, place a single thickness of something like a business card, tape it in place. Then re assemble the gun and test it cold, like you did before. Make sure it is actually touching the barrel when it is back in the stock. If that does not cure it, try a double layer. I would go to as much as three layers. If that does not help, then a "pressure point" won't solve the problem.

Gun makes used to do this with a lump of wood in their forends, but the floated barrel took over the shooting world.

I had an uncle that swore he got rid of the cold barrel issue with pressure points. Some claimed that they get batter accuracy with a floating barrel, probably true, but if the shots walk the first few shots you make, what good is the 3/4" group the next three make?

LOL I once had a 6mm rem rifle that the first four walked 6", then it would group 3/4". pressure point took out half the climb.

Thanks for the replys, guys, heres the latest. After cleaning, I tried some different ammo. Wolf Match, and some CCI standard velocity. Same problem.

As far as adding a pressure point, my stock is the standard, hollow, synthetic stock. Adding a pressure point to it will require a lot more work than it would for a wood stock. I used to own a sweet Remington 700 in a laminate stock that had a pressure point. It was a good shooter, so I might try it later. ;)

Today, I shipped it back to Savage, to hopefully get it fixed. Different scopes, ammo, shooters, but still the same problem. I explained all of this in the letter I sent with the rifle. I tried calling Savage today about 50 times, but only got a busy signal. ;) Other than the cold bore issue, its a good shooter. From a recent outing;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../DSCN3569w.jpg

Left target is 5/8' with Hv 36gr minimags, the other is 1/2" with 40gr Wolf match. Could have been 1/4" without the flyer. Both at 50 yds.

When I here from Savage, I'll update this thread.

Thanks, again.

I know its gone for now, but synthetics are not too bad to adjust. There is some cross webbing near the front, just add some business cards there till it shoots right. If that does it, work out a permanent fix.

Nipper something to keep in mind is that as your ammo starts to warm up it will increase in pressure. I notice this is very pronounced since we have such hot weather. Once your rifle and ammo stablize in temp. It will shoot to the same point.
I live in Indiana and we have been having Texas weather here this summer. I noticed what you are seeing yesterday when taking my room temp rifle out to the range in full sun, the temp was over 95 and there was little shade, I stuck my shooting box under the bench to keep my ammo from getting to hot, once the gun and ammo reached the hot temp aimpoint stablized. I was shooting at 100 yd. closer would be less effected.Yesterday my first five did the climb each shot , second five grouped normaly, and it did the rest of our shooting time.
Bill...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nippr

Hello guys, first post. Last fall I bought a MKIIF with accutrigger. It was mainly to use teaching my nephew's 12 yr old son about shooting. But I've had a lot of fun shooting it as well. ;D 3 weeks ago, I put a scope on it to use in a little friendly competition at a local get together.

Here's the pattern that it does. Cold, first shot will be about 2" low. Second shot will be about 1" low. It will be on zero by 3rd or 4th shot. And it will stay on zero while continuing to shoot. To rule me out, I had 2 other experienced shooters test it over the weekend, with similar results. (One of them owns a MKIIF, and he said his cold shot averages 3/4' high). Scope is fine, mounts and bases are tight, stock isn't touching barrell, and action screws are tight.

I can't say wether it has done this all along, because it had only been used as a plinker, until I put the scope on it, and shot it from a bench.

Admittedly, I haven't cleaned it for awhile(150 rounds?). I was reminded of that over the weekend when I had 2 extraction failures for the first time, using CCI Minimags. That's all I've shot in it. ;) I gave it a good cleaning yesterday, and hope that will help some. ;D

I'm just curious if this is normal. Any one else have similar results?

Thank you.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by handirifle

I know its gone for now, but synthetics are not too bad to adjust. There is some cross webbing near the front, just add some business cards there till it shoots right. If that does it, work out a permanent fix.

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Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billcurtis

Nipper something to keep in mind is that as your ammo starts to warm up it will increase in pressure. I notice this is very pronounced since we have such hot weather. Once your rifle and ammo stablize in temp. It will shoot to the same point.
I live in Indiana and we have been having Texas weather here this summer. I noticed what you are seeing yesterday when taking my room temp rifle out to the range in full sun, the temp was over 95 and there was little shade, I stuck my shooting box under the bench to keep my ammo from getting to hot, once the gun and ammo reached the hot temp aimpoint stablized. I was shooting at 100 yd. closer would be less effected.Yesterday my first five did the climb each shot , second five grouped normaly, and it did the rest of our shooting time.
Bill...

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Thanks, but on both days of testing, both the rifle and ammo were outdoors for a few hours, and the pattern continued. First 2 low, then rest on zero. Let rifle sit for 20-30 minutes. Then the first 2 low, rest on zero, etc....

Update;

I called Savage last week and asked them to call when my rifle was being shipped, so I would know when to expect it, and arrange for neighbor tio sign for it. They called today. She said they shot two 3 shot groups at 100yds, with Federal gold medal, and both groups were .9". Not what I expected to hear. And that they were going to ship it back tomorrow. We had a little friendly discussion. I told I was confused how the rifle was shooting the first three cold shots about 2" apart at 25yds, using different scopes, shooters, and good ammo, including Wolf Match 40gr, but it could now do three cold shots at 100yds under an inch. ?????????

As stated, it was a friendly discussion, and she said they she would check with the shooter and a service rep, and call me tomorrow.

As also stated, I'm just confused. Not angry, or making accusations, just confused. I guess I'll know more when I get it back and take it to the range. Hopefully, I'll get it by Friday, so I can take it to a big get together at a local range on Sunday. That way, I can have others shoot it in case the problem reappears.

I'll update when I know more.

Thanks, guys.

I had a 93R17 that did the same thing. It was suggested that a proper and thorough chamber cleaning might help. A it turns out, it fixed my cold shot issue!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by groaner71

I had a 93R17 that did the same thing. It was suggested that a proper and thorough chamber cleaning might help. A it turns out, it fixed my cold shot issue!

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Thanks, if I need to, I'll try it.

I received it today. Not a happy camper. On Savages web site, they say speficaly to send it back in the original box. I didn't get my original box back.

I won't be able to take it to the range until Sunday.

Maybe the box was damaged in shipping. Just a thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by groaner71

Maybe the box was damaged in shipping. Just a thought.

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Not likely. The original box was well packed inside of a larger box. ;)

Got to the range Sunday, but was only able to put a few rounds through it. Most importantly, the first 4 rounds stayed in a group, they didn't string verticaly. For the three months that this rifle has been scoped, the first 3 or 4 shots, NEVER stayed in a group. They have always strung verticaly. Seems funny that the first time this happens is after it came back from factory, even though they say that they didn't do anything to it. ;)

I plan to get to the range tomorrow for some more extenive testing. Btw, they are sending me a label to put on the returned box to make it the new 'original' box. I forgot to mention that the rifle came back with a new magazine. (I didn't send one) Maybe that was help offset shipping costs.

Very odd, but I'm glad it's not stringing shots any more!

nipper,
Just for the heck of it, inspect the crown at the end of the barrel to determine if the factory may have cleaned up the crown a bit. Just a thought.
Last week while at the range I had a discussion with my grown up daughter about the same thing. The conversation was about police or military sharp shooters. With the need for a "first shot hit" and possibly at moderate to longer distances our talk consisted of just how do they sight their rifle in? The first shot out of my very accurate center fire rifle traveling at 3300 feet per second out the barrel is always 1 3/4" high left at 11:00 o'clock. The next four are within a 1" bull. (Clean bore) When the distance is multiplied so is the first shot discrepancy.
As mentioned if your looking for ultimate accuracy as in target scoring,try a few premium brands of ammo. Try Elley, Lapua CenterX, Wolf etc. Then stick with the one the rifle likes best. Use a heavy steady front rest and a proper rear bag. If your trigger pull is acceptable try a very controlled trigger squeeze where you don't know when the rifle will discharge. This will make you stay on target and not create additional rifle movement with the trigger pull. If your scope has a dark reticle or dot, try shooting a target with a white center bull so you can see the center better. You are correct that temperature, humidity, wind etc. will all affect performance from one session to the next. Once the barrel is warmed up use timed rounds to keep it warm but not hot. I don't think there is much anyone can do to change the first cold shot from being out of group. All we can do is take the variances out of the equation such as cheek weld, eye distance and position behind the scope, breath and heart beat control etc.
Your first shot placement is nothing I wouldn't expect. You might try a few different torque setting when you secure the barrel and action into the stock just to test the results. Just a few thoughts....
Best wishes,
Pete K.

Apparently that 5 round test that didn't string was a fluke. I took it out a few days later for some extended shooting. Same problem. I was shooting at 50 yds, and a few of the cold bore shots were 3-4" low. With Wolf Match the cold shot was 1 1/2" low. Same old pattern, one low cold shot, the other 4 in a group. I decided that I was tired of messing with it.

So here is its replacement;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...DSCN3589Pw.jpg

Mark II FV-SR, picked up yesterday. I'll get some lower scope rings this week. I put some foam under the shell carrier to compensate for the high rings during today's outing. The only issue was the supplied 5rd mag. It wouldn't hold bullets. They would pop back out of the mag. Luckily, I took one of the 10rd mags from the other rifle along. ;) I call Savage tomorrow about getting another 5rd mag.

Like many new rimfires, it took a few groups to settle in. I shot CCI 36gr Minimags, CCI 40gr standard velocity, Fed GM Target, and Fed GM match. at the end of my session, I shot this 3/8" group with the Fed GM Match;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...DSCN3590pw.jpg

This was the best group with the CCI standard;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...DSCN3592Pw.jpg

No major cold bore shot issues to speak of. A couple groups had low cold shots, but they were fractions of an inch, not inches. ;)

I think its safe to say this one is a keeper.

I'd like to thank all that repied and offer assistance. I appreciate you taking the time. But the hassles with the other one were taking the fun out of shooting.

Thanks again.