Lug lapping

I mentioned this methode of using a brass and cutting it and inserting a spring. The brass with the spring created force on the bolt so you could then lap the lugs. Do your own research on lug contact recommendations. I recall that most lugs make contact with less than 10%....usually. You want 80% and anything beyond that was anal. I found the article about making the tool:

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/...ic.php?t=29357

This is a great forum by the way and this was a superb post.

Enjoy this guys work and generosity.

John

And Brownells sells the lapping kit for..... http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4...-LAPPING-TOOLS

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

You want 80% and anything beyond that was anal.

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Tell me why I want lapped bolt lugs again?

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

You want 80% and anything beyond that was anal.

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Tell me why I want lapped bolt lugs again?

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Because you have a Remington? ;D

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Because you have a Remington? ;D

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Nope all Savages for the centerfire bolt rifles.

Read this. This is what sharpshooter told me when I asked about bolt lapping. After I read it, I got down on one knee, drew my sword & saluted Sharpshooter & the knowledge he has bestowed upon me.
So it is written, so let it be done....




Re: Lapping in a bolt...

« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 03:13:23 AM »

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Most bolt lugs will always look like that. The reason is the generous clearance around the bolt body raceway. When you close the bolt, it is almost always slightly cocked to one side when you start to turn the bolt down. Being slightly cocked to one side, one lug will contact the closing ramp before the other one.
When the first lug contacts, it acts like pivot point until the other lug catches up. That's the reason for an irregular contact pattern. Believe me, when you pull the trigger, both lugs will get the same pressure.

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

Read this. This is what sharpshooter told me when I asked about bolt lapping. After I read it, I got down on one knee, drew my sword & saluted Sharpshooter & the knowledge he has bestowed upon me.
So it is written, so let it be done....

Re: Lapping in a bolt...

« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2012, 03:13:23 AM »

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I've been taking my M10 apart and putting it together and trying to understand this lug lapping.
I've read the quote below and wonder how he knows:"Believe me, when you pull the trigger, both lugs will get the same pressure."
A small number of degrees of bolt handle movement, at first, operates the lugs against the action ramps and moves the bolt forward. During this rotation I think the leading EDGES of the locking lugs engage the action ramps and the bolt is cammed forward.
Then, for a relatively lot of degrees, the bolt rotates without moving forward, engaging the locking lugs with the non-angled parts of the action ramps. I think this rotation and engagement is what "lapping" is all about.
It seems to me that marker on the lugs and operating the bolt will tell the tale, keeping a force backward on the bolt handle if the wavy washer pressure isn't enough. For absolute assurance, marker on the locking lugs AND on the action ramp surfaces would tell the tale.
As near as I can tell, the bolt handle ramp acting on the rear baffle ramp is where extraction force comes from. m I missing something?
joe b.



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Most bolt lugs will always look like that. The reason is the generous clearance around the bolt body raceway. When you close the bolt, it is almost always slightly cocked to one side when you start to turn the bolt down. Being slightly cocked to one side, one lug will contact the closing ramp before the other one.
When the first lug contacts, it acts like pivot point until the other lug catches up. That's the reason for an irregular contact pattern. Believe me, when you pull the trigger, both lugs will get the same pressure.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

I've read the quote below and wonder how he knows:"Believe me, when you pull the trigger, both lugs will get the same pressure."

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Because the bolt head on Savage 110 actions is a floating bolt head.
In overly simple terms once you shoot the bolt head will push back and the one that contacts first will act as a pivot point until the other side also contacts and then they share the pressure.

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

I've read the quote below and wonder how he knows:"Believe me, when you pull the trigger, both lugs will get the same pressure."

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Because the bolt head on Savage 110 actions is a floating bolt head.
In overly simple terms once you shoot the bolt head will push back and the one that contacts first will act as a pivot point until the other side also contacts and then they share the pressure.

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There's 2 things going on here.
1. Do both lugs engage when the gun fires? Sure, I think. Floating bolt head etc.
2. Do both lugs engage with a lot of their surface? I don't know, and isn't this what lapping is about? If 5% of the left lug and 90% of the right lug engage, A does it matter? and B doesn't lapping fix that?

A lot of people for a long time have lapped a lot of lugs/action ramps on Mauser-type interrupted thread actions. I've done it, and never found a problem getting a lot of engagement = marker/dykem worn off the back of the lugs. Like many things we do out of faith, I could never attribute an accuracy change to lapping.
joe b.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

A lot of people for a long time have lapped a lot of lugs/action ramps on Mauser-type interrupted thread actions. I've done it, and never found a problem getting a lot of engagement = marker/dykem worn off the back of the lugs. Like many things we do out of faith, I could never attribute an accuracy change to lapping.
joe b.

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Lets actualy look at what lapping is. This is my definition of what lapping is I say it is a process where you are taking two fixed objectes, and placing wear on them so that they are matted togeather. With that said can you lap something that moves?

Here is a ddefinition from Abrading methods web site. "Lapping and fine grinding are processes used where the surface finish, flatness, or parallelism of the work piece must be held to very close tolerances." What if you dont have close tolarences? If the bolt heads is floating does the tolerances change?

The problem with a savage is this, It is not a Remington, and it is not a Mauser, it is a complete different design. So why do we always try to make a Savage a Mauser, or a Remigton, with the gunsmithing process used for them?

Lets think about it this way, if you lap a Savage bolt where the bolt heads is constantly moving, and floating due to its design, do we create a matting surface? If the bolt head floats and you lap it here, and the next stroke it moves to a diferent place, and the next stroke it moves to somepleace different, and never repeates the same spot, are you actualy accomplishing anything, but placing un-needed wear on the bolt head, and lugs.

With that said you compairing apples to oranges, they just are not the same.

While I cannot testify about the results, good or bad, of lapping a Savage bolt, the actions of the bolt, yes it is moving, but it is close enough and repeatable enough so that, in theory, to me, it would help. The question is, how much? On bolts like the Mauser and Rem, the bolt head do not float and if 15% of the head makes initial contact, then 85% of the head will flex into contact on firing, passing some of that flex into the cartridge base and thus moving the brass some, affecting accuracy to a degree.

With the Savage bolt head, I would imagine a much higher percentage of bolt head actually contacts before firing. I winder is some of the bench rest shooters that compete with Savages have done this, and to what end result? I see lapping as a possible improvement that cheap and easy. Never done it but in theory it sounds like a good idea.

Just because savage has it pivot bolt head does not mean u should not check contact remember if the receiver locking lugs were machined off( not equal ) the sav bolt should conract both lugs it will in turn cant the fired case,which could give you harder than normal bolt lift.
Gary

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Originally Posted by Gmac5

Just because savage has it pivot bolt head does not mean u should not check contact remember if the receiver locking lugs were machined off( not equal ) the sav bolt should conract both lugs it will in turn cant the fired case,which could give you harder than normal bolt lift.
Gary

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Good point! Of course they should be even. My contact in my SS target action is a 2 or 3 thou scratch that goes half way around where another scratch picks up. 1% maybe. The other lug shows much better....maybe 4 or 5%.

I know of nowhere that it is stated that lapping the lugs will diminish accuracy unless you are using a belt sander. Many say that it will improve it but only a small amt. I haven heard that Savage is exempt from the procedure but there are Gunsmithing accessory houses that sell lug lappers exclusively for the Savage. That is an indication but doesn't prove a darn thing, by itself.

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

I haven heard that Savage is exempt from the procedure but there are Gunsmithing accessory houses that sell lug lappers exclusively for the Savage. That is an indication but doesn't prove a darn thing, by itself.

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I am thinking that idealy you want the face of the bolt to be parallel to the face of the case...which should be purpendicular to the rifle bore. It Would make sense to chuck up the bolt head and skim the contact surface of the bolt head lugs and then ensure that the bolt face is parallel to that. Then minimal lapping is required and all surfaces are square to each other. Just my .02 but anything else is...as they say, pissing in the wind.

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Originally Posted by handirifle

I winder is some of the bench rest shooters that compete with Savages have done this, and to what end result?

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Well to start, you will only find Benchrest shooters shooting a savage action competitivly in mid to long range matchs. (Not that it can not compete in short range.) I have shot with shooters from all over the Midwest and Eastern section of the US, and I can recall a singe person that has ever lapped a Savage bolt.

Most of these shooters marvel over SSS's T&T job, if they are not shooting one at the time, they usualy send their actions off after the match, after feeling what one feels like. (Trust me SSS sales on T&T actions skyrocket after a match.) SSS does't lap the bolts in thier T&T job, (And they also discourage the action of lapping a bolt in a savage.) I think that is the icing on the cake.

I can verify that SSS doesn't lap the lugs in a T&T service.

John

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Because the Savage floating bolt head is designed to allow a few thousandths of an inch of movement, it can adjust itself for a perfect fit only typically found with hand-lapped locking lugs.

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From the 2012 catalog.

OK....I have gotten educated. SS, a much respected source doesn't lap. 82, a competitive BR shooter with years of experience, says don't lap. The Savage literature says specifically, it isn't needed. But why are people selling tools to do this to the Savage? I was conflicted.

My best youngest Smith had the answer: The Savage, using a short bolt, can have the bolt shifted off axis and true with very little material moved. That results in the bolt face being out of true with the chamber/barrel axis. In a Remington, that is what happens at the moment of ignition. For the Rem to do that it must bend the bolt. In a Savage the small bolt head can pivot to achieve this alignment. Apparently, it is easy to over lap the Savage bolt into being out of true. It is also almost impossible to remove any metal from the bolt lugs given the bolt head is hard chromed, as is the bolt body.

I am not sure I buy all this. And I am sure I don't buy into the theory that lug geometry doesn't matter in the Savage. Also, "every thing in a Savage, all those mass produced parts associated with the bolt body and bolt head alignment, all those parts, true up at the moment of firing ? That one needs a lot more "truing" to be in alignment for me.

It may be that we can do little to cause any improvement in accuracy where bolt lapping is concerned but it coming down on that side of the line. Better to spend your time elsewhere????

John

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

But why are people selling tools to do this to the Savage? I was conflicted.
John

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Who is selling a "Savage bolt lug lapping tools", or a kit? Just because someone makes it doesn't mean there is a need. Most tool are a carry over from Remington actions, and it may fit a Savage action, but that doesn't mean that it is needed. You see products everyday that have no need, and people buy them all the time, just stay up late one night and watch the info comericals. Another show come to mind, there use to be a show called Pitchmen on discovery channel, there was a lot of products made and people tried to market that had no need. It is called marketing, a crafty sales person can sell an air conditioner to an Eskimo in the middle of winter. If someone convences you that you need this product, then you will buy it. Another product that comes to mind is "Speedlock" system, it speeds up the lock time, they use to make it for a Savage action, but they dont anymore.

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

It is also almost impossible to remove any metal from the bolt lugs given the bolt head is hard chromed, as is the bolt body.
John

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The bold bodies, and bolt heads are not hard chromed. The bolt bodies are a carbon steel in the white, that have been heat treated, (And are harder than the hubs of heck.) and the bolt bodies are made from stainless.

My take on this is; if you feel you cant live without lapping the lugs go ahead. Its your time and money, not mine. For me its not even a thing I would consider or obsess about.

El Lobo

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Originally Posted by 82boy

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

But why are people selling tools to do this to the Savage? I was conflicted.
John

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Who is selling a "Savage bolt lug lapping tools", or a kit?

Well, It's Brownells, 82. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4...-LAPPING-TOOLS I'll bet there are more ....probably. Conspicuouisly, Midway doesn't offer a lug lapper for the Savage. I thought I saw a Savage being lapped on their video but I'm not sure but that is what started it for me....that and the nifty spring laoded tool made from a empty brass..


Just because someone makes it doesn't mean there is a need.

I know that. I might sound like a "true believer" advocating but I really am not. I just want to know and understand some of this stuff. And certainly not to get into a peeing contest though those contests usually lead to a better common understanding.


Most tool are a carry over from Remington actions, and it may fit a Savage action, but that doesn't mean that it is needed.

I never disagreed with that. Never heard the Remmy angle on development but seems like it might be true.

You see products everyday that have no need, and people buy them all the time, just stay up late one night and watch the info comericals. Another show come to mind, there use to be a show called Pitchmen on discovery channel, there was a lot of products made and people tried to market that had no need.

I retire at 2 or 3 AM usually. More of my day is spent soaking up trons from the tube than I would like or admit to even. I agree with you on this.

It is called marketing,

Condescension? You are higher than that. ??? ::) ;D

a crafty sales person can sell an air conditioner to an Eskimo in the middle of winter. If someone convences you that you need this product, then you will buy it. Another product that comes to mind is "Speedlock" system, it speeds up the lock time, they use to make it for a Savage action, but they dont anymore.

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Originally Posted by 1jonzmith

It is also almost impossible to remove any metal from the bolt lugs given the bolt head is hard chromed, as is the bolt body.
John

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The bold bodies, and bolt heads are not hard chromed.

My Smith told me that. He can be wrong but he tries to be correct and open. I will contact Savage and see if they remember ever doing this. I sure don't know.

The bolt bodies are a carbon steel in the white, that have been heat treated, (And are harder than the hubs of heck.) and the bolt bodies are made from stainless.

Not trying to be a nit picker with this....BUT.....that sentence seems, seems mind you, to contradict itself.

I put a magnet against my SS barrel and it stuck. Same for my brilliantly polished receiver...stuck to it also. The bolt body is definitely attracted, as are the bolt head and baffle and my bolt handle that should be SS. My kitchen sink? Now there is some metal that is supposed to be SS and it could care less about magnets. And as far as my magnet is concerned......that sink might as well be made of glass. I was told a lifetime ago that there are many grades of SS and some of them are attracted to magnets. Finally, after all these years...PROOF. I solved this catchy problem professionally by only ever ordering "stuff" made from "Marine Grade SS". But I never got into the details...

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I'll post after Savage gets back to me. And, I know full well that they are selling stuff to the public and I will have to review their answer with a jaundiced eye, as should you all...still!

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Originally Posted by ellobo

My take on this is; if you feel you cant live without lapping the lugs go ahead. Its your time and money, not mine. For me its not even a thing I would consider or obsess about.

El Lobo

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I knew you would understand about it being my time and my money. I don't always need help doing the "SMART" thing....but often I need help doing the "LEAST" stupid thing. I'll keep asking questions. And not take myself so seriously...that's bad for me.

It's a hobby. Obsessing is part of the joy of the thing. I think it is still a valid procedure for guns not Savage. I'll bet you obsess about "stuff" that I wouldn't. What is your favorite sport? Home team/favorite team? Player? Religion? hoboy, don't even go there. Politics? nahauh! I could care less about all of that but they sure are popular subjects for a grand peeing contest. Right?

Thanks for your comments,

John

well said

drybean

82,

Quote by 82
"The bolt bodies are a carbon steel in the white, that have been heat treated, (And are harder than the hubs of heck.) and the bolt bodies are made from stainless".

Quote by John
"Not trying to be a nit picker with this....BUT.....that sentence seems, seems mind you, to contradict itself."

I talked with the Savage sales rep. I have a return caLL REQUEST INTO THEIR ENGINEERING DEPT that has yet been received and I think they will have the last word. BUT, Sales informs me that my "bolt body" is SS and my bolt head and front baffle are also SS. It is supposed to be a special SS alloy and is hard as "the hubs of heck". But none of the parts are high carbon steel and heat treated. All steel has carbon in it as that is what turns iron into steel. When steel is referred to as carbon, that is redundant. The common expression, "carbon steel" usually is translated as "high" carbon steel. HCS can be made harder than the hubs of heck BUT what also follows is a brittleness that makes the metal subject to shattering and that isn't good considering the shock of firing a rifle highly stresses the action..... repeatedly. My understanding is that the steel id of exceptional quality and uniformity but not particularly hard or brittle. Mausers are particularly easy to drill for mounts but, I have read, the Brit Enfield eats drill bits in doing the scope mount task. The Enfield is the only battle rifle that is case hardened....read that once. Seems the heat treating and hardening and tempering processes are very difficult to control and quality variances make the process expensive and dangerous to the person shooting the gun. Jap Arisakas have a rep for killing the shooter due to bad steel and heat treating. All these processes are dramatically affected by the alloy content itself so all the way around tempering or hardening gun pats has been difficult. I think I have a pretty good handle on "some" of the rudiments of gun metal and I strongly suspect that hardened high carbon steel is not used in the manufacturer of Savage receivers. History: It was Krupp Industries that first learned how to cast steel canon barrels in a single pour so they didn't explode apart when fired. Iron canon was difficult to find crews to man due to their habit of exploding and brass/bronze had insufficient strength to lob shells very far. In the first battle where the krauts faced off with their arch enemy, the French, while using the Krup cannons the Krupp canon carried the day and the Krauts won their first war with the French in 200 tries. End result? The world boooo'd the Germans and labeled them war mongers and bullies. Go Figure!! And the losing-est nation the world has ever known was labeled evil and superb military minded goose-stepping etc etc. Funny world.

There are some exotic stainless steels that are extremely hard. Dig into cutlery for that journey. V10 or D2 come to mind. D2 is attracted to magnets very well. (I just tried it) 60 RockwellC, by the way.

I post what I learn from Engineering at Savage about action alloys if I can contact them.

And I quote:
It's a hobby. Obsessing is part of the joy of the thing. I think it is still a valid procedure for guns not Savage. I'll bet you obsess about "stuff" that I wouldn't. What is your favorite sport? Home team/favorite team? Player? Religion? hoboy, don't even go there. Politics? nahauh! I could care less about all of that but they sure are popular subjects for a grand peeing contest. Right?

It's an addiction.... It's OCD at it's finest. Although I TRY not to be quite so obsessive about my addiction, I did read this thread with obsessive desire.
Excellent info guys. Thanks for the "fix"... ::)

Frank in Fla

True perspective!

Thanks

So aren't the bolt heads just surface hardened? And if you lap them, wont it make the mating surface soft?

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Originally Posted by Eric in NC

So aren't the bolt heads just surface hardened? And if you lap them, wont it make the mating surface soft?

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Eric, Can SS alloy be surface hardened? I don't know. Is that the proceedure, surface hardening, that Savage employs? When I finally get to talk to the engineers I will answer with what they say.

Till then,


John

I guess I need a more stable platform to measure my bolt and action. The difference in depth of the ramps from my Trued action rim to the ramps varies between 6 thou to 1 thou. I don't trust what I am doing and I will get help from my Smith to get real numbers. It seems that there is variance between the bolt lug thickness and from the front of the lug, the center and the rear. The ramps look to be uneven. A lot of stuff sure needs to jump into even contact when that puppy lights off. Not my thoughts.

Maybe Monday....we will see,

John

C'mon guys, it's folly to think that a Savage doesn't benefit as much as any other rifle from having everything in perfect perpendicularity to an axis drawn through the centerline of the bore.
Sure the bolthead floats a bit, but the boltface doesn't in relation to the bolthead. If the bolthead is tipped due to uneven lug abutments then the boltface, which is what really matters, is also tipped out of perpendicularity to the bore C/L.
The exact same procedures done to a 700, barrel threads recut, lug abutments trued, mating surfaces of the lugs trued, and boltface trued, will benefit the Savage as well.
Savage makes it easy to cut the small shank threads to the large shank size and still be able to utilize prefit barrels if that's what you wish to use. The Savage is also just as easy as the 700 to chuck up in a lathe with zero runout.

For most hunting rifles the benefits of such a treatment are dubious on the Savage or the 700 but there can be no question that everything in perfect perpendicularity would be the ideal situation.

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Originally Posted by nsaqam

For most hunting rifles the benefits of such a treatment are dubious on the Savage or the 700 but there can be no question that everything in perfect perpendicularity would be the ideal situation.

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Pretty much, it's you and me, Bro. I think there should be no question either. The biggest problem for me is that the "heavies" around here have lined up squarely against the idea. With all due respect to those with the many years of experience, I will wait for "Savich", silly or otherwise, to clear the air.

Thanks for your thoughts,


John

Okay I'm confused about something fundamental in the firing process I believe.
Doesn't the firing pin just jam the cartridge forward against the shoulder when it releases until the case gets stopped by the shoulder and then the pin dents the primer down to the anvil?
At the point it's forward motion is stopped by the shoulder the round fires.
The pressure pins the case against the wall of the chamber and the brass starts flowing backwards toward the bolt face and forwards lengthening the neck.
The pressure against the sides of the chamber is what is holding the case in place and only part of it is moving rearward as flowing brass.
Since the case is being held against the chamber wall by the pressure of firing at this point, the bullet is going to exit the barrel before that pressure drops enough for the bolt head to be actually holding the case again instead of just stopping the rearward flow of the brass?
What I guess I'm asking is this... Aren't the bolt head/lugs supporting the rear of the case again after the bullet has already started down and out the barrel?

Here is a link explaining some of my thinking. It might even be where I originally read about pressure in the chamber/barrel upon firing. I don't know it has been years since I first read what I'm asking about above.
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

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Originally Posted by cgeorgemo

Doesn't the firing pin just jam the cartridge forward against the shoulder when it releases until the case gets stopped by the shoulder and then the pin dents the primer down to the anvil?

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Not when the extractor is holding the rim against the bolt face. Saw a guy fire a 308 in a 30-06 M1 Garand - nothing holding the case but the extractor (no way it reached the shoulder of the chamber - came out almost straight walled).

I can wiggle my cases against the bolt head even hooked under the extractor....
And of course the .308 would need to be held by the extractor there's no way it's going to reach the shoulder in a 30-06 chamber.

In response to lapping lugs ,do what floats your boat ,just be careful if you switch barrels and bolt heads .
Ive seen ownets lap lugs only to find out the orig bolt lugs were not equal to start ,which lapped rec and lugs equally then switched cartridge and and had only one lug touching. Min and max specs can stack and cause problems unforseen down the road . As the receiver im refering to was never trued and i got it after the fact ,it is possible it left the factory that way ,but the customer insists he had even contact on both bolt heads until he lapped?
GAry

It is possible to shoot 308 in 30-06 chamber( I DO NOT RECOMEND IT) ,the 308 dia at sholder ,side wall junction is larger than 30-06 chamber at 308 lenght check your reload books or chamber specs
Gary

How about a little hypothetical inquiry to the mix?

If the bolt face / head was not square & true to the centerline & chamber and all that, what effect would it have on brass over the longer term?

Whenever I dress a case & have it chucked up in the drill, hit the trigger & it spins on sort of an elipse - the head is rotating & the case mouth is spinning on a 3/4 inch circle - I wonder if the chamber had anything to do with it.
Especially when I get into 5 or 6 firings where I'm finding many cases the same. 1 or 2 firings - OK. the more use, the worse they are.

Would this be related to anything regarding the bolt head / face to chamber relationship?

Whatcha think ??? ??? ???

Frank in Fla

Yes you could have a problem ,but more likely its the way you are spinning the case
You need a more precise case spinner ( trimmer)
And if your bolt face isnt square it can cause harder bolt lift than if everything was true.
Gary

If your boltface is not perpendicular to the bore axis you may see what you're experiencing after one firing but five or six firings would not be likely to increase it as it is unlikely that the case is entering the chamber the same way every time.

Novice opinion here....if the bolt face isn't true then the brass will fireform to the irregularity and the brass will come out out of true. You repeat this process and you will have "worked" the brass back and forth. If the stroke is big enuff or you do it a lot then the brass would be weakened. The dreaded "light line" that creeps in around the bolt brass head(?), the one that heralds imminent head separation, could that be related or make things worse and shorten brass life? Lots of stories out there about short brass life, like three firings, and others get 15 or 20 reloads.

Gmac..... you seem to have a handler on this..... I sure don't speak with any authority.

Thanks John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 82boy

The bold bodies, and bolt heads are not hard chromed. The bolt bodies are a carbon steel in the white, that have been heat treated, (And are harder than the hubs of heck.) and the bolt bodies are made from stainless.

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OK! According to Savage Customer Service, Engineering Department doesn't talk to customers, The bolt bodies and bolt heads have never been chromed....ever. Their words. Both the bolt body and heads are made from the same alloy steel....didn't have the number as that is "engineering's" purview. The dept that I can't talk to!!!! BUT, neither the bolt bodies or heads are stainless in the NON stainless version of the action. HUMMMMMM! Didn't think to ask whether the bolt body is SS in the SS action but I suspect it isn't. But, to say that bolt bodies are stainless without a qualification would seem to be "not entirely correct". At any rate, I am working with what Savage told me and that is also subject to "what I heard the man say". In my self defense, I am not entirely without skill at listening.

Thanks All,

John

You'll probably never get a straight answer even from an engineer. Here's what I know for a fact:
The bolt heads are made from special profiled stock, 41L40 and heat treated to 35-42 Rc.
The bolt bodies are made from 1020 tubing and carbo-nitrided (case hardened)to a depth of .012-.015" @ 50 Rc.

After reading all the posts about lapping lugs I see that all the posts seem to be saying 'What if?" this or that. I have come to the conclusion we have a solution desperately in need of a problem.

El Lobo

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Originally Posted by ellobo

After reading all the posts about lapping lugs I see that all the posts seem to be saying 'What if?" this or that. I have come to the conclusion we have a solution desperately in need of a problem.
El Lobo

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Very well said.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ellobo

After reading all the posts about lapping lugs I see that all the posts seem to be saying 'What if?" this or that. I have come to the conclusion we have a solution desperately in need of a problem.
El Lobo

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Very well said.

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+1

SS,

Thank you. I had a knife made from D2 alloy. When it was finished and delivered I was delighted at the craftsmanship. Beautiful! Then I dropped it on my hearth stone and the tip "BENT". WTF? Had it tested and it came in RC40. That is the untempered/hardened workable D2. It came back RC60+....harder than a file's RC58. But it is brittle for anything but tool steel or a special profiled knife.

Heat treating is a MUST and it is also difficult and time consuming to do right. I am surprised that they are only getting RC 50 on the bolt nitriding. My bolt has scratches in the side from dragging on the SS action. That doesn't seem that that would be possible buy little of this makes any final sense from my perspective. I had been considering having my action nitrided after I make sure the ramps are actually both depressed equally from the mouth/front of the action.

Thaqnks for taking the time to get into this. I know you are busy.

John