IMR4350 substitute

Greetings & Happy Monday ;D

It's a happy Monday because I played hooky from the office & went to the range to tryout my freshly serviced bolt.

Anyway, enough small talk.... I FINALLY found a consistantly accurate load for one of my 30.06 rifles. I worked a load up using the ladder / OCW homebrew method & came up with 56.3gr of IMR4350 /150 Nosler BT with a CCI primer. However, 56.3gr is very tight in a Federal case. I find it a little looser in a Remington case although I like the Fed cases more. I'm finding that 4350 is kinda sorta bulky. Even in cases that are neck sized only, it's still pretty tight - tight as in I hear a very distinct crunch sound when I seat the bullet & a couple cases bulged when I pressed the bullet in. I ran into this once before using H4831 on my .270 and ended up not using the combo.

I notice a few of y'all like Reloder. What's a good 4350 sub with the Reloder series of propellants? Anyone know of a powder that's slowish like 4350 & less bulky?

Thanks.... Gotta sign off for a wee bit. Gotta nasty lightning storm getting too close for my comfort :o

Frank in Fla

You might try H4350. I am currently working on an accurate load for my 30-06. Cases are holding 60gr of H4350. Beyond that I am sure they will be compressed. Here is a burn rate chart of powders:
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

If its that close, a 2 foot drop tube would probably get the powder in just fine.

hmmm.....56.3 grains should not be giving you a compressed load in a 30-06. Not with 150gr bullets. My go to load is 60gr of IMR 4350 with the 150gr Nosler BT. My COAL is longer than book because I have room to lengthen it out in my chamber, but I would certainly think you should be able to get your 56.3 grains in there without much problem. Are you certain that your scale is right? H4350 is a good choice to go with as well, as it is a little bit hotter than the IMR version, in the testing I have done with it in multiple calibers. One of the old Lyman books used to list 61.0 gr of IMR 4350 as a max load, but that was about 25 years ago, back when I developed my load for my rifle. I don't suggest you go that high, but your "compressed" load sounds off to me.

2' drop tube??? Really?? LOL

There is no reason that 56.3 gr should be giving you compression in an '06... I run 56.5 gr w/ a 165 gr Interlock or SST and don't get near even a bit of compression w/ any of the cases I've tried... Fed, Win, RP...

I wouldn't say that there is an RL that is a "substitute" for IMR-4350, but know firsthand that RL15 & 150s are like PB&J in the '06.

You might want to check your scale... it might be off kilter a bit...

I've been running 57.5gr. IMR-4350 for 20 yrs. Fills R-P brass just to the neck.

Hey Frank! How goes it?

I agree that 56 grains of 4350 probably should not be causing a compressed load!!?? Looking through my records, I've used as much as 60 grains of H-4350 with a 150 Hornady SST (similar profile to the 150 Noslers) in my '06, with no compression issues noted. Ive had really good results with either 59 or 60 gr, the latter giving slightly north of 2900fps from a 22" barrel, and nice groups. Granted, that's H-, not IMR, but still... I'm concerned that you may have an issue with your scale?? The good thing about a bulky, slower powder like that is that it's almost difficult to make a dangerous load with it; you would probably have to severely compress it to get to the really dangerous level.

Do you have the Nosler manual? It lists a max of 59 gr of IMR 4350 for their 150gr bullets, and they do note this as a compressed load(100% load density) in .... Nosler brass, naturally. However, they list 57 (96%) and 55 (93%) grains as not compressed. They also list Reloder 19 as their "most accurate powder tested". It, however, is even more bulky than IMR4350, according to their data.

Have you tried seating your bullets farther out, closer to the rifling? This would give you more case capacity, but may give higher pressure as well. Adjust accordingly.

With the 150 gr Noslers, I've had really good luck with Varget, working gradually up to 51.5 gr in Remington brass. This load gives me 2875fps from a 22" Howa hunting rifle, with dozens of beautiful sub -1/2" groups that I've saved over the years. This is my most accurate stock hunting rifle/ load combination. Also works equally well with 150 gr Sierra Game Kings- same accuracy and point of impact as well. Don't ignore the SGK, by the way, as I saw that little 150grn'er put a 300lb boar down in its tracks at 100yds, with a behind-the-shoulder shot (my brother on the trigger). I would never have believed that a "lightly constructed" bullet like the SGK would have stopped a big, TOUGH animal like that, so quickly. It didn't exit, but it didn't need to, either. Not suggesting it would do this every time either, but man it sure worked that time!

Now I know, everybody loves to hate on Varget, with claims of inconsistency from lot to lot, so be careful, but I personally have never had any problems with it. That being said, with Varget in an '06, this is definitely NOT a compressed load, quite the opposite. Probably somewhere around 85-90% density at max, which means you MUST be careful with it- you could easily make a VERY hot load if you're not careful. You know the drill- start low and work up.

I would check and recalibrate your scale, too- like I said, 56 grains should not be compressed if all is right. Are you using a RCBS Rangemaster 750 by any chance? Mine walks badly. I still use it, but have to re-zero it often(every 5-10minutes), and check it often against my balance scale. I wouldn't use it by itself, without a backup scale to keep it honest. It will lie like a Washington politician if you let it. But as long as you're aware of its exaggerational tendencies, and stay on top of it, it works well enough to be useful.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Ya know... I considered the scale being off but, I just did some scale part swapping & ran off some of my known accurate loads. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with them. Accuracy was right there, case fill seemed as usual.
My Lyman book shows 57gr. as compressed and Hodgdon shows 58gr as compressed loads. I don't know what to say... Maybe I have either skinny cases or a batch of fat stick powder :o

I just stepped into the "armory" and looked at the rounds I made last night... Shake a Fed case & no movement inside.... Shake the same set up in a Rem case & I can feel the powder moving inside.

When I made them last night I recall noticing the hi level of powder in both which made me wonder / think that 4350 is a bit bulky. These handloads have a long COL. I don't recall the measurement & I don't feel like going down the other end of the house again... Too tired, old, fat & the race is on ;)

Anyway, I'll run off a few with some new brass I just got, as well as some Winchester brass & see what I come up with.
In the mean time, I really like the results I'm getting with the 4350 so, I may just get a pound of Reloder in a similar burn rate. I have found my '06 hates faster powders like 3031, 4064 & even 4895. It's shot best with 4350 & I may consider H4931 (since I keep a bunch on hand).

Thanks to all for the responses...

I'll keep y'all posted on my fat stick powder issue.

Oh yeah.... Forgot to say Hi & what's happening to Barrell nut...

And the scale I use is the Lee whats-a-ma-gizmo or whatever it's called and it's been a most reliable little scale. I've checked it against known different weights & it always comes up right on the money with in a tenth.

I don't care much for electronic scales. In fact, I don't care much for alot of electronic stuff now that I mention it. I like to weigh each load individually. I throw light & trickle up to what I need. I also throw, load & seat one at a time to eliminate the possibility of mistakes & boo - boos.

I'll get it figured out. AND, I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanx again.

Frank "Overload" in Fla...

57gr is not compressed in Winchester brass with a 165gr Grand Slam. Federal cases are quite a bit heavier so maybe they have less case volume.

OK.... Updated info. The race is stopped due to accident / fire (Daytona 500) so, I got off my lazy hiney & looked at my "situation" a wee bit closer.

NOW --- They're 165gr Nosler BT's ::) NOT the 150's I originally said. My "age" is acting up again...

A Nosler BT 150gr is approx. 3/16th inch SHORTER than a 165gr Nosler BT. I think that could make just a little bit of difference with this whole scenario.

My 56.3gr load of IMR 4350 is still .7 under Lyman max. More importantly, they shoot dead nutz accurate. Something that drove me crazy for a while.

The COL is 3.395" from case head to tip and, as I said earlier, the Federal FS cases are packed tight. When I shake 'em - they're tight.
The Remington NS case have a little movement in them when shaken.

So.... That's the most current info. It took me a while but I know I'd get it right eventually. This is why I write everything down ;). As I get older I rely more on pen & paper & less on memory. DOn't laugh... you'll get there someday :P

I have feeling it's the Federal cases. I looked up a .270 load I put together a few months back that had similar circumstance. I ended up using some new Winchester brass because it was too tight in the Fed brass. Maybe I got a bunch of fat wall Fed cases?!? :o :o :o

Now, I'm going back to watch the fire at Daytona...

Frank In "smoky" Fla.

Kelbro - I think you havean excellent point. I've noticed in the past Federal brass will not usually hold as much propellant as Win of Rem.

Thanks. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

NOW --- They're 165gr Nosler BT's ::) NOT the 150's I originally said. My "age" is acting up again...

A Nosler BT 150gr is approx. 3/16th inch SHORTER than a 165gr Nosler BT. I think that could make just a little bit of difference with this whole scenario.

My 56.3gr load of IMR 4350 is still .7 under Lyman max. More importantly, they shoot dead nutz accurate. Something that drove me crazy for a while.

---

AHHaH! I knew we'd get to the bottom of this!:) :)

Looks like problem solved to me! Especially if they shoot well, I'd leave them alone. Just don't be surprised if the winchesters behave a little differently than the Federals, due to case volume.
Have a good day FGW!
B/N

So... Now that I've divulged the facts, the general consensus agrees that 4350 is kinda bulky & I'm getting extra full Federal cases with an extremely accurate round / load I've stumbled upon for my '06.

As much as I like how the IMR4350 acts in my "06's... I'd like to have a sub / standby powder available. It looks like Reloder 19 and / or 22 gets the vote.

I'll probably pick up a pound can of each with my next powder order...

I'm obliged to y'all for your input, recommendations, suggestions, comments, threats & insults :o

Thanks.

Frank in Fla.

I am currently loading RL-17 in place of IMR4350. They are said to have similiar burn rates. You would want to start low of course, and work back up. Maybe try all three (17,19,22) good luck.

Not a bad idea.... More than likely I'll start with the slowest burn rate. That seems to be the direction this is going.

HEY! Maybe pick up all 3 - Mix them together & call it Reloder58 :o :o :o!!!


Thanx for the input guys. Now if you'll excuse me, I feel an emergenct nap coming on.

See y'all later. ;)

Hey Frank, just a reminder, the Nosler manual lists 19 as "bulkier" than IMR 4350...still a great '06 powder, though, but you're gonna get a bigger "crunch" when you pull the handle than you're getting now.

22 is more of a 7-mag kinda thing. It's WAY bulkier than Imr4350, in a max load. For instance, a max load of 4350 is listed as 100% load volume density, for R/L 22 a max load is 114% density; however, if you dont mind crunching powder, it yields considerably higher velocity in a max load. On an equivalent volume basis, it's slower, though. Dont ask me how to utilize 114% of available case capacity; i dont have a clue (two foot drop tube?) I never have been comfortable with crunching powder. Could be considered a character flaw i guess.

Why not stick with the 4350? You sound a lot like me. I can't count how many times over the years I've stumbled onto a really good thing, then couldn't rest until I changed it!!?? Maybe that's my real character flaw! :) :)

BTW, fgw, I just noticed.. Now that we've changed your bullet of choice to the 165 Nosler BT, guess what powder Nosler lists as the "most accurate powder tested" for 165's? You guessed it! IMR4350, specifically a max load of 57 grains, at 100% density, was the best of the best for them! Good for 2832 fps in their 24" Lilja test barrel. You're a genius, Frank! Don't change a thing! That's an ORDER! :)

Did you just call me a geenie's-@55? :o

I used the Nosler online info, Hogdon Annual Manual & my Lyman current reloading book to put together a OCW for my 165gr Nosler/ 30.06 combo.

Sheer genius I tell you. Actually, the old saying - "It's sometimes better to be lucky than good".

And then there's my "other" words of wisdom to live by - Age & treachery will win out over youth & skill everytime. ;)

Ya know Barrel, since I moved my '06 to the slower powders it's much happier. 150 & 165 NBT's are doing absolutely fabulous.
Next I'm looking to try Hornady's SST's. My .270 does great with them & lastly... One more serious try at 180's. Last time I thought I was going to have to sell the rifle. I could not make it happy. Slower powders was the answer.
Thanks again to all for your input.

Frank in Fla

FGW,
I think you will find that you will be happy with the IMR 4350. If you absolutely have to try something else my vote would be for H 4350 and then maybe H4831. I have had fabulous results in multiple cartridges with all three of these powders, especially in the .308 and .30-06 based cartridges.

In my '06 I've had great results from IMR-4350, RL-s 17 & 19, and Ramshot Hunter w/ 165s.

Best accuracy has been w/ 56.5 gr of 4350, although RL-19 has done really well for me in that dept, too. Hunter hasn't been far behind. RL-17 & Hunter gave best velocity, and RL-19 & Hunter gave best balance of velocity & accuracy.