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Conditions: 42 degrees, cloudy, close to 60 percent humidity. Ammo and gun close to same temp. 221 fireball stock sizing, Lyman cast bullet #242646, 8 gr BlueDot, Rem std pistol primer, boolit off of the lands, no filler, minimum SAAMI std chamber, level shooting, Savage bolt gun w/Douglas barrel.
First shot?
Obstructed bore (could be just the gas check from previous round)? Is there a ring in the barrel?
I doubt it was that though - probably a double charge or not really Blue Dot (Bullseye, Red Dot, etc.).
Had you shot this combo before? Pull down rest of rounds and check for the empty one!
How was the headspace?
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First shot was low in the circle just below the dot. 2nd shot was high & right. First time w/cast bullets in the fireball but not new to cast bullets. I shoot them in 30/30, 308, 30-06, 45/70 & several pistol calibers. I loaded 20 rounds & pulled the remaining 18. All checked out. I used a kinetic puller and all the gas checks remained attached when pulled. It was def. Blue Dot. Black plastic bottle, in the white box near the bottom it has CE 0519. In yellow ink, somewhat smudged is 08 LOT 258 the best I can make of it. The first shot sounded normal, sort of like a 22mag on steroids. The bolt opened fine, the case looked fine, primer looked fine. The second shot sounded somewhat like a muzzleloader going off only faster. More like a snap, bang, boom.
I've shot approximately 100 rounds of 40gr v-max's, worked up to 15gr of Lil Gun, everything was great with that load. Love the little Fireball cartridge. Headspace was set using a Remington once fired, full length sized in a RCBS sizer, then using the scotch tape method. Screw the bbl down on the cartridge snug, add a slice of tape. The bolt would close to about the 3 o'clock position. Added 2 slice's of tape and the bolt would go to about 1 o'clock. Re inserted the single slice of tape on the cartridge and tightened the nut up on the barrel. I don't think headspace is an issue because I've fired about 100 rounds previous to the cast bullet. I cleaned the barrel using Hoppe's #9 copper solvent followed by a dry patch. There was very little to none copper fouling. I talked to Douglas and they told me to send the barrel back to them & they'd check it out to see if I can still use it or if I have to hang it above my reload bench as a conversation piece.
That looks terrible. Were you injured in any way? Hope not.
Were all the cases fired in ur chamber or were they virgin brass? Maybe that was a bad piece of brass? If they have been fired before in ur chamber .......then maybe it could have been a combo of a bad primer and or double charge. At least ubhave all ur digits and two eyes still.
Brian
That wasn't bad brass - double charge (or bad scale), bore obstruction, or wrong powder are the only options.
How did you weigh and charge? Lyman 55, dribbled into scale, etc.?
Brand new brass right out of the Remington bag. I used a new piece of brass & screwed the barrel on to touch w/the bolt closed. Loaded one round & fired it to set the headspace.
All digits still in place. Got a small nick on the tip of my nose from something flying out of the action, part of the extractor I think. I was just wondering how much PSI it generated..a double load according to quickloads is 88k w/a 45gr bullet. I don't know what Savage prof's their actions at, or even if they do test them. I'm glad it held together though, well mostly. It bent the action, bolt, & even broke loose the bedding in the stock the action was bedded too.
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Powder weighed on a RCBS 505.....may be onto something though. I don't have a check weight to double check the scale with. I've been using a 55gr nosler bt. to get close. I've read on other sites of people using up to 15gr of Blue Dot in their pet loads w/no problems all be it w/a lighter jacketed bullet. Could 88k psi do this to a Savage action? I'm just guessing but I'm thinking over 120k psi?
Do you know how to level your scale. You cant use a bullet as a check weight period. Are you sure that it was blue dot? Do you have a few left over that you can disassemble and check to see if you indeed have blue flakes in the powder.You ought to be using unique.I would buy a lyman manual which has the imfo on loading cast lead.
While I haven't used blue dot in this manner, is it possible that it was too light and as the case is laying down it doesn't cover the primer? This can cause the flame from the primer to ignite several place and when pressure waves hit they square.
Lol...yeah...I know how to level a scale. I have a chronograph too, just didn't get it out that day. Kinda funny how the scale worked with the jacketed/Lil Gun loads, then went bonkers w/the Blue Dot. Anything is possible I guess. I've read about warnings on Blue Dot in handguns, the 357 & 41mags. I usually use 2400 w/cast bullets, Unique is good also. I just used the Blue Dot load as a recomendation from a friend of mine that uses it in the 222 w/a 40 shoulder.
The lighting doesn't show the blue in the Blue Dot but they're there...it's Blue Dot.
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We're having this same disscussion on another site..castboolits.com. The term used is SEE. I wasn't a believer in it till now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie
There are two reasons why I use Unique. No. 1, I get accuracy, No. 2 Its almost impossible to double charge as the second charge will overflow the case. And I look at every case as it comes around the Lee progressive. With hundred thuosand or more of rounds using unique in .38, 9mm, ,45 auto I havent had a problem, cast or jacketed. Other than Unique I use 2400 in .357 and .30 carbine.
El Lobo
A .222 w/40 degree shoulder is not in the neighborhood of the .221 fireball. Blue dot is a squirrelly powder to begin with and trying it without seeing it in a book scare's the heck out of me. Please for Gods sake stick to the books. Also try Ken Waters pet loads.
The good thing is you are OK. The action can be replaced.
There might have been some sort of flaw in the brass that cause the catastrophic failure.
This is a clear cut case of Secondary Explosion Effect(SEE).
Consider yourself lucky that there were no major injury. Typically it takes about 110,000 psi for the receiver to rupture, and over double proof pressure (150,000 +) to shear bolt lugs. I would estimate it took about 80-90k to do what you did.
What is the Cause of SEE. Its almost self explanitory but Im more complex than that. ???
When you have too little case fill to cover the primer the powder can be ignited in multiple spots. When the pressure waves hit you get a pressure spike. Which is why people use fillers, whether cream of wheat or cotton, to hold the powder against the primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
with to much air in the case, THE POWDER ACTUALLY EXPLODES INSIDE THE CASE, RATHER THEN A CONTROLLED EXPANSION.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie
Why some of use cringe when you talk reduced loads with other then proven powders!
I had discounted SEE as a possibility because 1) 221 is such a small case and 2) Blue Dot is a pretty fast powder. Seen it happen with things like 45-70, and in particular the big magnums, but never heard of it in a very small case like the 221. I did see where ATK says not to use Blue Dot in light bullet 357 loads now - and the 357 and 221 are roughly the same size and the 221 bullet is MUCH lighter so I guess it is even a known problem.
I just sidestep the issue by using 4759, 4198, 5744 etc. in cast bullet loads.
I think there is a misinterpretation of SEE. Modern powders to not explode, they burn at a phenominaly high rate. The explosion of the SEE kind is a result of the pressure spikes due to the uneven burning of the powder but not of the powder "exploding".
El Lobo
If it were me, I would pay extremely close attention to the words of Blue Avenger and Sharpshooter and give up shooting those cast "boolits".
Secondary explosion effect would imply that there is a primary explosion. The word "explosion" is a misnomer... there are no explosions, only higher than normal or expected pressures.
One of the leading causes in a reduced load causing pressure is the fact the case is not to full case density. A fluffy powder such as any flake type double base powder takes up little space in a rifle case. When the primer is detonated, it has such a blast wave it blows the powder about without instantaneous ignition and at the same time it has enough pressure to unseat the bullet from the case, moving it forward with just enough energy to wedge it into the throat. This act just like an obstructed bore. When the powder finally gets to full pressure, it hits a bullet that is now partially obturated and increased in resistance.
In simple terms; this is like being rear ended in your car. If both vehicles were stopped and you mated bumpers and then proceeded to push the car ahead, you're fine. If you hit car ahead with a running start, well you know what I mean.
Thanks for elaborating gentlemen. That info might save my or someone elses extremities or life on day.
There is nothing wrong with shooting cast bullets if you use your head for something besides a hatrack.. I have fired hndreds if not thousands of cast bulllets from a .308 using proper powders and min loading data from the manuals. I hard cast the bullets (using linotype metal or solder in the lead) lube and size them with gas checks. I have never had a problem with leading but then again I wasnt using a Savage with a rough barrel so with a Savage act accordingly. I never saw a sign of high pressure and some powders gave phenomonal accuracy out of My Winchester Model 70. Light recoil is good for kids and ladies as they are cheap and you can get a lot of practice for little money. By the way. The most accurate bullets I have cast came from wheel wgts that most garages will give you free.
El Lobo
Here's a link if you want to read some more disscusion about SEE. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=138177
I don't blame the cast bullets for the bad experiance. I've been shooting cast for way to many years to blame them. It's a combination that didn't work out. I don't blame the powder either, it just wasn't the correct choice for this application & luckily I came out unscathed. I've been handloading for nearly 28 years, casting my own bullets for the last 5/6 years. Shot thousands of rounds both reduced & full power loads and have never had this sort of thing happen. I've never used Blue Dot in anything other than 44mag either. Trailboss, Unique, & 2400 is what I've always used for reduced/cast loads in rifle's and all has been good. One thing I have learned is Blue Dot & reduced loads don't go well together.
I have read about SEE, but never seen anything like that. Very glad you are OK!
That "phenominaly high rate" is actually an explosion. The rate of the burn/expansion determines if it is a low explosive or high explosive.
This is all very interesting cuz ive never heard of SEE at all but i have never loaded cast for rifle....yet. Only handgun. Gives me lots to consider when i do decide to tiptoe into it.
Brian
Use proper powder your setup and follow the books and you will be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by airaddict
never used any blue dot but that sure looks like more than 8 grains in the picture of the pan. Might just be the camera angle. Anyway glad you are ok, I double charged a .45 ACP a while back, other than cracking a grip , damaging the magazine and ruining a good pair of boxer shorts I was ok but the incident made me come off the wallet to buy a powder cop die for my progressive.
I have read of/seen this same thing happeniing a lot with the 25/06 and light loads in several other calibers, using jacketed bullets in articles and books by PO Ackley. What happens , he thought, is that the gas/fumes present with any type of smokeless powder ignites first, and the powder in these light loads that is lying underneath ingites secondary when the primer is fired. The ignition of the powder gasses pushes the bullet into the bore so far, then the powder ignites/detonates and the bullet acts like a plug in your barrel or obstruction like mud or debri. A buddy of mine, a 25/06 lover did not believe this, and tried it in his 98 mauser 25/06, custom job, and warped the action, cracked the lugs, had to drive the bolt handle open with a hammer,completley wrecked the rifle. PO stated that the 25/06 was worst caliber for this to happen. Just chiming in, makes sense to me though.