Savage 14 AC 7-08 major accuracy issues...help

I have a model 14 American Classic in 7mm-08 that I cannot get a good group with. I bought it new last March. It has Talley one piece lightweight base/rings and the scope is a Bushnell Dusk/Dawn...and before anyone says- it's the cheap scope or well, there's your problem, I have the same scope on a Remington 7600 and it is beyond accurate.

I want to use factory ammo, I cannot reload....I have used Remington Core-lokt 140 with the best results(1-1/2"-2" at 50 yards), Winchester Power Point 140 (ballistically similar to Federal Vital Shok/Nosler Ballistic Tips) 3" groups at best, and Hornady GMX 139...groups in the 5" neighborhood consistently.

These results are under ideal conditions....3 shot groups, barrels cleaned, time to cool, solid bench rest. I am at a loss here so suggest my next course of action. What ammo do you use in 7-08 savages?

Just because you have another scope of the same model and make doesnt mean the one in question isnt broke. Swap them out and see what happens. If the other scope works on this same rifle then you know the scope is the problem. 5' groups are never the fault of the rifle. Even factory ammo should give you 1.5 inch groups out of that rifle. Its a simple way to find out if it is inded the scope thats the problem. The reason you hear that the scope is probably the problem is because about 100% of the time it is.

El Lobo

So lets start with the basics. Are all of you screws tight? Is the action torqued to 25-30 in/lbs? Have you tried a diferent scope? I will add that the 7600 is an auto loader that has much less recoil than the bolt gun. Is it possible that your second scope is not as good as your first(you could test that by swapping them around)? Is the barrel floated?

after you have checked that call savage and ask them what to do.

Stangfish and ellobo have very good suggestions, and I would agree with them 100% except in this specific case. Sav101, I think you are correct, it's probably not your scope, mounts, etc. Check your barrel twist rate with a cleaning rod fitted with a tight patch. Chances are you have a 1-11" twist barrel on your 7-08, and if that is the case, you will probably never get it to group well with 140's or heavier. Many of us have fought the same battle with poor results. Why Savage chose to use 1-11" instead of the industry standard 1-9.25" for 7mm's is beyond comprehension.
You might try some 120 gr. loads, they should do better. But unless you handload, these will be hard to find.
The "good" news, is that it is relatively easy to rebarrel it with a barrel of the correct twist, or even to change calibers, to anything in the .308 family.
Do not waste another dollar on various 140gr ammunition until you determine which twist you are dealing with. I believe that I have read on here that Savage has produced some models with the faster twist also; but it sure sounds like you got stuck with a slow twist barrel. Ask me how I know; I tried all the same things you are doing now, and nothing worked- various scopes, mounts, every 140 grain factory load I could get my hands on. Best I could get was 2-3" at 100 yds., usually worse. I eventually rebarreled it with a 1-9.25" twist 7-08, and groups immediately dropped below an inch with 140's.
Not trying to discourage you, and I sincerely hope this twist issue is not the problem, but I bet it is. Savage makes a good rifle, and in the case of your model 14, a good looking rifle, and Savage rifles are accurate almost as a rule. Why they continue to produce 7-08's that are not optimized for 90%+ of the factory ammo out there (140 gr) just makes no sense.

Too true! The only bullets I can use in my 1 in 11 twist are the 100, 110 and 120 grain. I even tried some 130s and they wouldn't group. Luckily, the 120 gr Nosler BTs shoot very well giving me sub MOA at 100 yards.

GaCop,
I'm pretty sure you handload, but I'll ask anyway on behalf of the OP- Do you know of any 120 gr factory loads for the 7-08? The only one I found, and I just found it only minutes ago, is this:
Hornady® Custom Lite Rifle Ammunition
120 gr SST
On sale on Cabelas website now for $21.99.
This is the only 120gr of the 13 loads Cabelas lists for the 7-08. The rest are 140 and up.
Sav101, you may want to give these a try. I really think this would help.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot...3Bcat104532480

Midway lists 4 120gr. factory loads.

I know it defies the odds and these are trued, ground lug, SSS triggers, etc, etc, BUT I have just finished my 6th (yes 6!) build using the Stevens 1 in 11 barrel and all 6 of them shoot sub MOA (a couple are closer to 1/2 inch) 3 shot groups at 100 yards using this load:

140 gr Nosler BT over 40.0 gr Varget with Winchester primers at 2.850 COAL

A friend is using the Barnes 140 gr with equal accuracy in his ( yes - 1 in 11 Stevens barrel) and as you can see he is pretty happy (before you question the stainless looking barrel on the rig - it is finished in GunKote):

http://www.darkeaglecustom.com/myalb...es/timdeer.jpg

WITH THAT SAID - I still recommend a 1 in 9 twist if a guy is buying a new barrel to put on.

Disclaimer - Your mileage may vary.............

Great, thanks thirty06! I'd sure hate to see the OP keep struggling simply for lack of appropriate ammo choices.

That's good info, deadeye. I'm honestly glad you were able to make yours work, and others on the forum have had good results too.
However, there have been many for whom nothing seemed to work, judging by how frequently this topic pops up. I know myself and GaCop had major problems at about the same time. Back then, I didn't handload, so I know what the OP is up against, as he has stated that he is limited to factory loads. Just trying to point him in the right direction, and hopefully keep him from having to break down (and rebarrel) that nice Model 14.

It may very well be the twist. I too have replaced my 1:11.? for a 1:9 twist, but my grandnephew's 1:11 twist shoots just fine with 40gr's of R-15 behind a 140 SGK.

I'm not certain that this is 100% reliable but I took it off of savages web page.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/m...MERICANCLASSIC

14/114 American Classic Caliber: 7MM-08 REM Handed: Right Rate of Twist: 9.5 Weight: 7 lbs Overall Length: 42" Barrel Length: 22" Ammo Capacity: 4


OH! and one other thing. I have seen barrels with the minor diameter of the bore .005 oversize from the factory. Takes a starret small hole gauge to find it.http://images.starrett.com/is/image/...a&maskUse=norm
Good Luck

My gun is not a 1 in 11 twist barrel, it has a 1 in 9-1/2 twist rate. I will begin with the scope and see what happens.

Hornady GMX bullets are going through the target and leaving an oval hole instead of a circle, what does this mean?

Check your barrel crown real good.

check the front base screw and make sure its not too long

It means they are not fully stabilized; it's called key holing.

it is possible that Savage put the wrong twist barrel on it. Did you actually measure the twist rate or did you just go by what it is supposed to be?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keeki

it is possible that Savage put the wrong twist barrel on it. Did you actually measure the twist rate or did you just go by what it is supposed to be?

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+1

Not to beat a dead horse, but here's what I'm hearing so far from the OP:

Remington core-lokt 140's doing the best at 1-2" at 50 yds.
- the core-lokt is a relatively short, flat based bullet that is therefore easier to stabilize; even if the twist rate is marginal, it does OK.

Hornady 139 GMX's doing the worst, 5" groups, and key holing.
- the GMX is a relatively long bullet for its weight due to its being constructed of lighter metal (lead free). Remember that longer bullets are harder to stabilize than shorter ones. If the twist is marginal, these would be more likely to give problems (i.e. 5" groups, keyholes).

IMHO, you have a bullet stabilization issue. It may be caused by inadequate twist in the barrel, or other manufacturing problems, as stangfish pointed out above. A loose or broken scope is not going to cause a bullet to keyhole at 50 yds.

I'll shut up now. ;)

The SKU # on the box says 17770, the web site page for the gun says 1- 9-1/2 twist rate.

How could or why would a bullet not stabilize in 2 full turns before leaving the barrel? Too much twist for the velocity? Hornady GMX=2910 fps/muzzle velocity.

Also in my Savage paperwork the ammo listed for the targeting evaluation is Winchester 140 Gr Ballistic Silvertip and the web site says Federal 140 Gr Nosler Ballistic Tip- so which is it?

Disassembly begins today. Will follow up.

The forward screw for the front sight base is over the barrel, correct? If the screw for the base were too long and running into it would that create inconsistent accuracy or not?

yes, because the scope base will be moving

But the keyholing isnt gonna be caused by a scope or base. Thats the bullet not stabilizing. Take your cleaning rod with a swab and run it down the barrel and measure the twist rate. Measure how far it travels to make one revolution. Im betting its an 11 twist.

The swab down the barrel is telling me it has an 11"twist rate.

So, if this is the case what grain ammo is this going to shoot accurately?

Bingo!

change the barrel to a 9.5 twist, go down to a 120gr bullet, or send it back to savage to get the right one.

Call savage and arrange to a rifle with the appropiate twist shipped.

I am definitely contacting Savage tomorrow.

I did the swab in the barrel about 20 times and it is an 11" twist. I think I even called about this back in March before I bought it because they list 2 different 7-08's on the savage website with diff sku #'s.

Thanks for the help on this, you all definitely know your stuff.

Swap the scopes and use the known good scope and see what it does. Many possibilities covered already. I have an 11FL that drove me nuts. Four inch groups with handloads that shot an inch and a quarter in a handi rifle. I shortened the base screws and action screws, floated the barrel, changed scopes, inspected the crown, etc. Turns out that my problem was the bolt handle cut-out was off. The stock started out as a right hand stock and they filled the original slot and cut a new one on the left side. Unfortunately, it was almost a quarter inch too far back. The bolt handle was binding against the front of the cut out. I found it only because my buddy put a rattle can paint job on the stock and I finally noticed the paint was rubbed off at the cut-out. I filed out the slot and that dog became a .75 shooter.

You may also want to try a slower moving projectile. It helped my with my 30-06. I slowed the bullet down a few hundred FPS and my groups tightened up 3-4 times. Its now shooting .345" groups at 100 yards for me.

If the twist being too slow is the problem, I think slowing the velocity down would only make it worse.

I think. ???

I called Savage 10 minutes ago and explained the situation, gave them the serial number, etc... The service rep said my options were to send it in and they will look it over and see why it is inaccurate and fix any problems, and they would send a target with the ammunition they used to test fire it. I asked if he could tell me the twist rate and guess what, it has an 11-1/2" rate of twist. They said the gun was made in 2010 and probably in the (Davidson's)warehouse for a while and since it was sold to them and resold to me they couldnt do a rebarrel under warranty.

So then I called Davidsons and asked if they could tell me the rate of twist on the gun. 1 in 9-1/2" twist. Wrong. Davidsons is manning up, taking the gun back, having Savage re-barrel it to 1 in 9-1/2 and shipping it back. I'm figuring I'll have it back by next deer season. Anyway Im happy with the outcome, could've been worse.

I'd at least try a few 120's before you send it back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keeki

If the twist being too slow is the problem, I think slowing the velocity down would only make it worse.

I think. ???

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+1

Faster twist for heavier bullet. the heavier you go the slower. so slow down a lighter bullet to achieve the speed of the heavy one. There is a table on http://www.riflebarrels.com/products...wist_rates.htm that may help.

to stabilize a long bullet, it has to turn at a higher rpm than a short bullet. the faster it is moving, the higher the rpm.

He might be shooting to light of a round in to fast of a twist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmorsch

Faster twist for heavier bullet. the heavier you go the slower. so slow down a lighter bullet to achieve the speed of the heavy one. .

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Cmorsch, with all due respect, I think your logic is faulty here. Bullet stability is a complicated product of bullet diameter, length, speed, and rate of rotation. You are changing two variables - speed, and length of bullet (lighter). Any gains in stability in this case will be due to using a shorter projectile, not from SLOWING DOWN a shorter projectile. In other words, slowing down a shorter bullet just for the sake of matching the velocity of a longer bullet, is not going to make the shorter bullet more stable in flight.
Over-rotation of any bullet (too much velocity for a given twist) can make it slightly less accurate than if it was within its optimum RPM's, and in extreme cases can actually make the bullet disintegrate in flight, but it will remain stable (spinning on its axis) up to that point.
The problem the OP is having is on the opposite end of this spectrum. Keep in mind that bullet stability and accuracy are separate issues. Stability can and does ultimately affect accuracy, but there are a host of other factors that affect accuracy. Stability is required for the bullet to remain spinning on its axis, or else it begins to tumble in flight. Slowing a given bullet down if it is already on the verge of instability, will only make the condition worse, resulting in key holing and very poor grouping, which are problems the OP is already having.
Shooting a shorter, lighter bullet at HIGHER velocity, such as a 120 gr in this case, should improve stability, and accuracy in this case, and is something that has been mentioned many times throughout the course of this post. Apparently the OP does not want to do this, as he has not responded to these suggestions yet. That is understandable if he only wants to use 140gr bullets, but the only thing that would help in that case would be to push them faster, which would require handloading, and may push the envelope of safety pressure-wise.

+1

Barrel-nut I am following what you're saying. I didn't plan on using any ammo lighter than the 140 range, I want the gun for deer hunting and at a range no greater than 150-200 yards, most shots I take are between 50-85 yards and rarely a long shot on an exceptional animal(big buck).

My long time deer rifle is a Remington 7600 308, a pump action by the way. I use 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt off the shelf ammunition. Before that I used a Rem 760 in 30-06, again 150 grain ammo nearly identical performance, the later rifle was retired after three generations hunted with it. So 140 is as low as I want to go, I could use less since I hunt over farmland and not woods, I agree it's worth looking into but I want to stick with what works for me. I know what the 308/30-06 150 is capable of and the ballistics are similar to 7-08 140's so thats where I want to stay.

I did use Hornady Superformance GMX 139 Gr which have a velocity of 2910fps, about 110 fps faster than the Winchester 140 Gr Ballistic Silvertip, and the groups were larger than any other slower ammo and the bullets were key-holing the target.

I was wondering if a BoatTail bullet would make a difference in accuracy in the 1 in 11.5" barrel.

the boattail is longer which requires more twist. The longer the bullet the more the twist, so you could probably stabilize a 140gr round nose, but who wants to do that

I appreciate the advise as far as hands loads and lower grain bullets and for some it works fine. I dont load or reload rifle ammo but I can understand and benefit of creating custom loads for ones gun and the satisfaction of making the optimal round for your gun. At one time I loaded shotgun shells when I was skeet and trap shooting and I developed my own load for each that I was quite proud of. So for those that offered their advice in that regard I thank you but I am currently limited to what the store shelf has in stock.

I am hoping that the problem will be resolved when the 1 in 9.5" twist barrel is put on the gun.

" I am hoping that the problem will be resolved when the 1 in 9.5" twist barrel is put on the gun. "

Good decision you will not regret.

Again, as I explained in post #17, the reason the 139 gr GMX didn't stabilize well is that it is VERY long for its weight due to its lead-free construction. Remember, stability is dependent on velocity, bullet diameter, bullet length, and barrel twist. A short 140 gr bullet like the Core-lokt is easier to stabilize, even though it's moving slightly slower. If you could push the core-lokt a couple hundred FPS faster, it just might give you the results you want, but I doubt that could be done safely pressure-wise.

I agree completely about the 30-06 150 Core-lokts working very well in Remington rifles. They are as accurate as any other factory ammo, and better than most. The terminal effects are devastating too.

The rifle returned from Savage last week with a new 1-9.5 twist barrel. I checked it with the swab down the barrel, at the gunshop, just to be sure.

Unfortunately, when I opened the box and took out the gun the first thing I notice is a gouge in the forearm near the magazine well. Upon further inspection I found a dent near the pistol grip and the checkering on the bottom of the forearm was flattened like it was scraped across a table edge. There was also the residue of the savage logo sticker on the stock which had collected dust. I took that sticker off my gun and cleaned the residue off with Rem oil, and oiled and cleaned the entire gun. This gun was covered in dust.

So, to make it short, I am now returning the stock to Savage for a replacement. I dont know what is going on with Savage or Davidsons but this is ridiculous.

So they gave you someone else's stock?

Does the serial number match your original serial? Maybe they sent you the wrong gun all together.

The serial number matches, the stock was beat up somehow. Savage said they no longer make or have a stock like the one that was on the gun, the stock has been redesigned and the replacement they have is different from the original.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

GaCop,
I'm pretty sure you handload, but I'll ask anyway on behalf of the OP- Do you know of any 120 gr factory loads for the 7-08? The only one I found, and I just found it only minutes ago, is this:
Hornady® Custom Lite Rifle Ammunition
120 gr SST
On sale on Cabelas website now for $21.99.
This is the only 120gr of the 13 loads Cabelas lists for the 7-08. The rest are 140 and up.
Sav101, you may want to give these a try. I really think this would help.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoot...3Bcat104532480

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Sorry, haven't looked at this posting in a while. Yes, I handload and haven't used factory ammunition in many years. Off hand, I don't know of a source for 120 gr factory loads.

Sav101 , I'm not familiar w/ your particular stock configuration. But, you might find a replacement at Numrich arms. Nice to hear Davidsons backed you up even if Savage wouldn't. Sorry you had such a hassle getting it all resolved.

If you removed the barreled action from the stock (say, to adjust the Accu-Trigger), be sure you re-installed it using the proper procedure:

Drop the barreled action into the stock.

Start the action screws just far enough to catch threads; be sure you have the screws properly oriented (they are not the same length).

Holding the barreled action in the stock with your left hand, lift the rifle out of the rifle vice (or rest) so that the muzzle is pointing up and the butt plate is on the bench.

Apply moderate pressure on the barrel so as to force it aft (toward the butt plate).

Tighten the front action screw to about 30 in-lb.

Tighten the rear action screw to about 20 in-lb.

Now check that the barrel is free floating, and then check that the tang is free floating. Savage usually does a good job floating the barrel, but it is not uncommon that some relief of the stock may be needed to fully float the tang.

If you have to remove the barreled action to open either the barrel channel or the tang relief, re-install using the above procedure.