Precision reloading discussion

Anyone have any tips or tricks they would like to share for precision loading for long range shooting? I would like to get a few different peoples point of view…..realizing there is not a right or wrong answer….just what works best for them.

What steps do you find critical and what ones are a complete waste of your time…….neck turning, neck tension adjustment, bullet pointing, bullet sorting, flash hole deburring, uniforming primer pockets, case annealing, case sorting and so on…….

What special tools do you consider critical……

I belong to a little group up in northern Wisc that does some 300, 600 and 1000 yard F class shooting. I use a Savage 12 FTR 308. I use Lapua brass and sort it by weight, I don't ream primer pockets and I don't neck turn cases. I use a Lee collet neck die, a Forster shoulder bump die and a Forster mic seater die. I do pay absolute attention to runout. I use 175 gr SMK's, WLR primers and H4895. I have tried 168 smk's 155 smk and some others but have settled on the 175s. I get just a shade over 3000 fps at muzzle with my load and it easily gets to 1k at mach plus. No round fired has more than .001 bullet runout and most are less. I also anneal every third firing. I bump the shoulder every time about .002. I haven't kept track of the number of times these cases have been fired, but I think some are close to the 20 mark.

Use the slowest powder you can use for the round and get a better than 85% powder fill in the case. Use Benchrest Primers

There are a lot of different opinions on what to do. I say the most important thing of all in uniformity; make sure each round is exactly the same. When you do brass do them in 100 round lots, don't do 10 piece here 20 pieces there, and so on, do the same thing to all the brass, and do them all at the same time. Most of what I have to say goes back to this rule of thumb.

I would say one of the most important is ensuring that your rounds are concentric; I usually spin my rounds on a concentricity gauge, and pull any that have more than .002 run out. It will also shot if your bullets are seated at the same depth, because you will see the needle start out at a different place. Another thing I do to ensure concentricity is I do a light neck turning on my brass. I also find that on shorter necked cases, to keep 1 bullet diameter into the case to help keep bullets from tipping in the case when dropped in loading ports, or when hitting feeding ramps and ETC. I use a VLD style case neck reamer, it seems to help keep bullets straight when seating.

I also found that with the bigger gain powders used (Varget, 4350, 4831, ETC.) that weighing each charge is an absolute. Many long range BR shooters pre measure their powder and place it into test tubes, and put them into ammo boxes, and then they use them to load with at the range. Some use RCBS charge masters, because it will measure and weigh each charge. Charge all of your case at the same time, then look at them and see if the powder leval is at the same area, if something looks diferent then segregate that case, pour the powder out, and start over agin on the case that looks different, if it still dont look the same pull that case.

On brass, I usually use Lapua brass, which needs little if anything done with it. I found Nosler, and Norma brass to be just as good. If I use Winchester brass, I weigh each piece of brass and use a 1% tolerance in weight anything that is above or below 1% I get rid of. On Winchester brass I uniform the primer flash holes. I uniform the primer pockets after each firing; I find that a uniformed primer depth is critical. I length trim my brass after every 3 or 4 firings, I find that keeping brass uniformed in length is one of the things that makes a big difference.

Use a primer that works best with your combination, many long range BR shooters use magnum primers, because they are more consistent, that marked Benchrest primers. I also trim the meplats on my bullets, I can’t say it makes any difference but I feel better doing it. Find a powder that gives you the best results. Find out what others are using, and follow suit.

Some people get anal, and weight bullets, primers, and loaded rounds, I can’t say I have seen any of them make any difference. I also dont worry about neck tension, just dont seem to make much difference. I will separate bullets by Ogive, but that goes back to meplat trimming, making sure that all are cut the same length.

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When you do brass do them in 100 round lots, don't do 10 piece here 20 pieces there, and so on, do the same thing to all the brass, and do them all at the same time. Most of what I have to say goes back to this rule of thumb.

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Patrick, what is your exact process with brass, sorting, wieght, etc.?

Also, with Winchester brass, uniforming the primer pocket, what exactly is your process?

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Originally Posted by seanhagerty

Use the slowest powder you can use for the round and get a better than 85% powder fill in the case. Use Benchrest Primers

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+1

I also measure every bullet on the ogive, and weigh every powder charge.

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Originally Posted by Dennis

Patrick, what is your exact process with brass, sorting, wieght, etc.?
Also, with Winchester brass, uniforming the primer pocket, what exactly is your process?

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I do brass diferent by make. If I am doing Lapua brass, I pull them out of the box and inspect them. In the last three boxes of Lapua brass, I have had to throw away a few pieces right off the rip, because they was defective. (Had folds, double stamped, ETC.) If you do have a problem with lapua brass contact KevinThomas. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ind...file;u=1094197

After I inspect them, I then neck expand them with the proper caliber, and I full length size the brass. I then uniform the primer pockets, and champfer the necks. I look at the flash holes in the brass, if they dont look bad I leave them alone, but if they look bad (Got a box 6.5x47L that was horrible.) I then go in and ream the flash holes. I then fireform the brass. after the brass is fireformed I length trim them, and do a light clean cut up on the necks. (If I am doing a tight neck, or a wild cat that the shoulder is moved forward, I would cut the necks before fireforming, and may use a false shoulder depnding on the round.) I then measure the fired round, and set my Full length die to push the shoulder back .0005 - .001. I dont weigh lapua brass, because I have never seen a box that would not pass the 1% rule, the weights are usualy faily consistant, enough that I would bet the bank on it. I uniform the primer pocket on evey firing.

On winchester brass, I do the same thing, but I always ream the flash holes, and I weigh the cases, and throw out anything that doesn't fall int the 1% rule. (1% rule: weight each case, add the numbers up and divide it by the number of case weighed, this will give you an average, then multiply that number by 1%, this number I add to the average and get my high side, and then I subtract that number by the average to get the low side, any brass that doesnt fall into this area I throw out.)

Good info:

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On winchester brass, I do the same thing, but I always ream the flash holes

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Do you find Winchester brass having inconsistant flash holes pretty often?

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Had folds,

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Lapua brass: For the first time ever, I had folds on some of my "NEW" Lapua 6br brass! I have never have seen this before on any of their brass!

My loading techniques are pretty simple. I've never been a benchrest shooter, so I don't go to anywhere near that much trouble.

My loading process is actually a lot less picky than it used to be. I've tried a lot of different things and found most of it is just as likely to result in worse accuracy than it is to improve accuracy. A lot of the loading techniques are just a "rather safe than sorry" issue for most people, and after I did some testing, I satisfied myself that a lot of the stuff people do is useless unless you are a short range BR shooter.

First, the things I don't do. I don't...
weigh cases
weigh bullets
clean primer pockets
neck turn (unless chamber requires it for safe function)
trim meplats
tumble cases unless they actually need dirt removed
trim cases unless it's a safety issue or a huge length variation

I start with good brass. Typically that's Lapua, but sometimes I have to go with something else. With Lapua I just take it out of the box and visually inspect them. Sometimes I'll see something I don't like and toss one or two, but typically I don't cull any. I chamfer the neck inside and out and load them. If the brass is something standard like Winchester, other than the visual inspection and neck chamfering, I deburr the flash holes on the inside. If a case neck is bent, I'll run it into a die just enough to starighten out the mouth.

With bullets, I don't do anything other than a visual inspection just prior to seating.

I typically use "match" primers from CCI or Federal for every rifle load, regardless of its intended use.

Unless it's a ball powder, I weigh every charge. For ball powder I weigh every 10 charges just to make sure everythings okay.

I typically use Lee Collet neck dies. They produce ammunition as accurate as anything else.

I use whatever seater produces low runout. It doesn't have to be a "match" die, so long as it makes good ammo.

I rarely chrono any ammo. I shoot it at the ranges I will be using it and let it tell me whether it works or not. The exception is factory rimfire ammo, but we're not discussing that are we?

The things I've found that actually make a noticeable difference often enough for me to do them...
Buy good bullets.
Use match primers.
Weigh charges of powder unless it's ball.
Use a seating die that produces low runout.
Use Lapua brass simply because it lasts long enough to offset the price.

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Originally Posted by Dennis

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On winchester brass, I do the same thing, but I always ream the flash holes

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Do you find Winchester brass having inconsistant flash holes pretty often?

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The way that they do their flash holes, (punched.) leaves a jagged edge on the inside bottom, and leads to inconsistant ignigtion problems. Just cleaning them up does wonders. I found that Lapua brass doens't usualy have this issue. Flash holes are a funny thing, most people are afraid to touch the Lapua small flash holes, claiming that they take away from the accuracy potential. My small flash hole tool, doesnt change the size at all, and does a nice job of cleaning them up, I just find that when they are done right from the factory it is a waste of time. Now on my 6BR brass, I actualy did an experiment and reamed the holes out to the standard flash hole size, and I found that is shot better, tighter groups. Some people in the short range game use to ream the flash holes out when using powder like 4895 and such, and I think that it helps with the longer grain powder, like Varget.

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Originally Posted by Dennis

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Had folds,

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Lapua brass: For the first time ever, I had folds on some of my "NEW" Lapua 6br brass! I have never have seen this before on any of their brass!

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Contact KevinThomas he will replace the bad brass, I was afraid to get brass from him, because I am so anal about some of my brass being from the same lot. Tell him the lot number and how many pieces, this is something they need to know.

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Use a seating die that produces low runout.

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Squirrel, and your favorite die is?

Pat, again, thanks for the great info

Squirrel, thank you as well!

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Originally Posted by Dennis

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Use a seating die that produces low runout.

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Squirrel, and your favorite die is?

Pat, again, thanks for the great info

Squirrel, thank you as well!

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Unfortunately that can sometimes be a try-it-and-see proposition. Of course it may be as simple as playing around with a seater you already have.

But for a good balance of quality and price, the Forster Bench Rest seater is pretty good, and as long as you get the standard version it's not that expensive. The micrometer version is nice for convenience, but it adds a huge cost just for the sake of adjusting easily.

Most any seater can be made to work with a little tinkering though. Sometimes it's as simple as playing with slight adjustments of the seating stem and lock nut. Or with Lee seaters sometimes the top of the seater stem isn't ground perfectly which twists it slightly as pressure is applied. If you're dedicated to one bullet for a certain caliber or don't mind buying a few extra seating plugs/stems, you can remove the seater plug and use a bedding compound to fit it precisely to the bullet you're using. The trick is setting it up so everything is held straight while the compound dries. Also, remember to leave a hole for the very tip of the bullet which varies more in length than the rest of the bullet.

I have no idea where I found it, but a few years ago there was a pretty good article on the 'net about adjusting standard seaters to get lower runout numbers, so you might want to check around and see if you can find it.

Load'em & shoot'em..... pointy end toward chamber, no more powder than the case will hold, NEVER use spent primers. When the cases seperate at the web, throw them away............. Squirrel sniper, Can I assume you never sort primers by weight? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk ::)

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Load'em & shoot'em..... pointy end toward chamber, no more powder than the case will hold, NEVER use spent primers. When the cases seperate at the web, throw them away............. Squirrel sniper, Can I assume you never sort primers by weight? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk ::)

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Pointy end goes toward muzzle.

Sean, you load'em your way. It's O.K. w/ me ;D

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Squirrel sniper, Can I assume you never sort primers by weight? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk ::)

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The first time I heard of someone weighing primers all I could do was shake my head and wonder what would happen if they spent that much extra time actually shooting.

Amen !

I vote for spending less time on the reloading bench and more time at the range. I don't do anything special to the brass. I full length size the first time, and neck size afterwards, then trim for length, chamfer & bevel, and clean primer pockets. I weigh each charge to within .1gr if it's a match load, drop a little light and trickle up to 0. About every 10th cartridge I will check OAL.

If you just absolutely have to weigh the cases, here's my thoughts on that:
http://savageshooters.com/index.php?articleview=Whats the Big Deal About Weighing Cases?


I'd suggest getting a .22LR training rifle in a similar style and optics as what you will be shooting long range with and try some reduced targets like 600y reduced to 100y or 1000y reduced to 200y or something like that. This will allow you to work on you shooting technique, natural point of aim, breathing, trigger control and follow though. Good target grade .22 ammo is still a lot cheaper than reloading supplies!

Out of curiosity have any of you guys had problems with Lee dies? The set I bought for my 30-06 won't consistently seat bullets or size the necks. My last batch that I reloaded with these dies were horrible. I could easily pull the bullet out by hand after using the neck sizing die and the bullet seater die forces me to throw a fourth of what I make in the trash because the lands will scrape one side of the bullet when I chamber the rounds. Despite the errors the rifle still produces excellent groups although I think they could be better. .45 MOA is my record thus far and I am still learning the rifle since I just finished building it approximately 2 months ago. Round count is somewhere around 70-80. I have replaced them with RCBS dies now as I have found the quality of all my RCBS stuff to be top notch. I too am becoming very picky about the ammo I make because I am getting into long range comp with my 30-06.

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Originally Posted by scnewt

Out of curiosity have any of you guys had problems with Lee dies?

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A lot of people like them, but my honest thought is you get what you pay for. I have had lee dies, and they preformed well, but they will have consintricity problems, and other things. They are fine for someone wanting a cheap die, and absolute acuracy is not a must. (Such as laoding hunting cartridges.) My biggest problem with lee is, if by chance you break a decaping pin you are screwed. Lee will not give out a new decaping pin, (Like any other die company.) but will charge you for it, that is not the bad part, they have a minmum order or $10 and $7 dollars shipping, you an get a new die set for what it cost to replace the part. After all that I will not buy any lee dies. All I can say.

What about "Match" primers ? The Federal or CCI's ? Are they worth it?

I use cci bench primers but only because it was like $35 for 1000 vs $32 for 1000 of the standard primers on the last order I made with Powder Valley Inc. I really can't tell a difference but I also can't tell enough difference in the price to not buy them. Buy in bulk and the price is almost the same.

Nevermind. Now the price gap is $14. I might stay away from them now!!!

WOW!

Federal 210 v 210M is only $6 difference. Bad thing is 2 months ago I ordered my 2012 stash of stuff from PV. So no more bulk order for a while. Cabelas locally has some, I'll test the difference to see for myself, but wanted to see if anyone else had hard data. I know for some guys I shoot pistol with, the Fed Match do shrink their groups at 50yds.

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Originally Posted by That1guy

What about "Match" primers ? The Federal or CCI's ? Are they worth it?

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Yes and no. The Federal match are no diferent than the standard Federal. (I was told this by a highly competitive, and well known, shooter, and rifle builder.)

The CCI Benchrest are a good primer, and in som cases it is a good fit. I like them loaded in a 22BR, and a 30 BR, seams like the perfect match.

The Remington 7 1/2 benchrest is another good primer, I been told that it is actualy considered a magnum primer. If it fits use it. I like them in fast twist BR applications like a 6 BR. I find they shoot just as well as the CCI mag primers.

All in all find what works and use it.

CCI 450s shoot just as good in my 223AI and 6mm BR as the BR4s did, cheaper too.

i us lee dies for most of my pistol cals since all i do is plink with them and my ar-15 loads (my stress reliever)on a lee turret press. but for my rifle rounds it rcbs i may try redding out this year and up grade my press (had it since 1985) and give the set up to a friend who wants to start reloading.

@ 82boy - I just got, within the last 3 weeks, 2 new decappers for my 30-06 & .270 dies at no charge. I called the Lee main number in, explained I dropped them & they broke & had 2 new pins within a week. Maybe she felt sorry for me as I explained I have left arm all slinged off & bandadged up from surgery? I told her I had use of only my right arm & dropped the dies. Got 2 new ones at no cost to me. I have absolutely no complaints about my Lee set up. They do everything I need them to do with no troubles although reading all the discussion about neck sizing, I hope to be calling Natchez to order a collet neck sizing kit for both calibers.

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

@ 82boy - I just got, within the last 3 weeks, 2 new decappers for my 30-06 & .270 dies at no charge.

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Well my friend you got EXTREAMLY lucky. I have called Lee a couple of times and they want to charge an arm and a leg for a decaping pin. This is why I threw out 2 pairs of dies, (22/250 and 243) because everytime I have called they wanted more for the decaping pin that I paid for the set.

82 - Actually, I did it twice in the past year. Maybe because I was wimpering on the phone? (j/k) :'(
I was prepared to pay for them if necessary but, I had to try for a freebie & scored. Maybe I got the "nice" phone girl & you got the "meanie"? >:(

Stay well, all.
I'm going in for yet, another surgery on my shoulder which means I can't shoot for another 4 to 6 weeks.... again.
Maybe they'll get it right this time. I'm running out of money & patience.
If I don't get back in time, I hope y'all have a Merry Christmas & a Great New Year.

Now that I think about it I did lose an expander on my 38 special/ 357 mag expander die by Lee. They replaced it for no charge or shipping. For my pistol dies, Lee does fine. I own their 9mm, 38/357, and 45 acp pistol die sets. I really like how there crimp dies work. I guess for the price the Lee dies are fine. They are not good for making precission ammo though. For a pistol, as long as it chambers in the gun, Who Cares!!! ;)

fgw_in_fla,
Good luck on the surgery, and don't worry about not being able to shoot. I will take care of that! ;D

Guys, I just had a random thought, is it possible for the Lee dies to be out of square with the shellholder due to the O-ring that they put on their lock-rings? If so my bullet alignment problem should be easily fixed by chaging to a better lock-ring such as RCBS of Hornady's rings right? I might give this a try especially since I hate having to readjust Lee dies everytime I mount them on my press.

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Originally Posted by scnewt

Guys, I just had a random thought, is it possible for the Lee dies to be out of square with the shellholder due to the O-ring that they put on their lock-rings? If so my bullet alignment problem should be easily fixed by chaging to a better lock-ring such as RCBS of Hornady's rings right? I might give this a try especially since I hate having to readjust Lee dies everytime I mount them on my press.

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You can try it, the only way to know is to do it. I kind of doubt that it will fix the problem, the biggest problem with lee dies is that the bullet seater floats in the die, and there is no suport on the case neck when seating bullets. On the rubber on the bottom of the rings, some experts say that this system works better, and they use them on their high end dies, stating that the die alings itself, and decreases runout. Some will use o-rings under their lock rings to mimic the lee lock rings. It is one of them things you just have to try and see. Here is an article on the subject.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-neck-run-out/

That seems like a good idea to use o-rings under the lock nut, but Lee's set up does not evenly cover the bottom of the ring when tightened. Part of the o-ring will tuck into the lock nut and part will hang out. It makes high and low points on the bottom of the nut and, therefore, could cause allignment issues. That's what I was thinking of.

That was a good article 82boy. I will try that on my next loads.

The big O rings that are sold as water hose washers (not the flat washers) work good for me.

I do most of the things that 82boy does; however, all is pointless unless you test over the chronagraph. A load can shoot into the 3s at 100 yards and three minutes at 300. Why? Extreme spread. A 100fps extreme spread equals 6" of vert. dispersion at 1000yds it is 10" or better. Can't win matches like that.