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Does the stevens 200 in 223 usually have a long throat? Using the 69gr SMK, by the time the bullet touches the lands, there is only about a .050 hold by the case with an overall length of 2.450. Is this typical of others findings? My savage in 30-06 has a throat so short that I can not even load the 168gr SMK to standard oal.
i dont know but mine has a long throat to :o
I also have a .223 Stevens 200 heavy barrel, if you check their website you will see the 1 in 9 twist is for longer and heavier bullets with its longer throat. A .223 with a 1 in 14 twist is for the lighter bullets and a corresponding shorter throat.
Savage only chambers the Stevens 200 in a 1 in 9 twist. Savage has not offered the 1 in 14 twist in a 223 in over 20 years. In the Savage line of fire arms they offer an optional 1 in 7 twist on a 223, but this is only on the higher end guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/m...%20200%20SHORT
To answer your question. Yes.Quote:
Does the stevens 200 in 223 usually have a long throat?
Had a long throat in a Savage .223. Just seat them so they feed through the magazine correctly and i think
you will find that accuracy is not a problem.
send a pm to one of the vendors on here (sinman, NSS, or sharpshooter) maybe they can face the barrel and rechamber to give u a shorter throat so ur bullets arenot sitting at the very end of the case mouth. im not positive if its feasable but it dont hurt to ask. hopefully one of them will see this and chime in.
brian
+1 on what "wbm" said. Load to the max length your mag box will allow and still feed reliably. My 204 Ruger heavy barrel also has a long throat and many of the lighter bullets are out of the case neck when touching the lands. I seat as close as I can leaving at least caliber width in the neck and still am able to shoot tight groups.
82boy
When the .223/5.56 cartridge came out they both had the same twist rate, both meaning the civilian .223 and the military M16. You will find as the military changed the twist rate the civilian market place followed the military changes. You will also find if you look that the American SAAMI and the European CIP conceder the .223 and the 5.56 NATO to be the same cartridge at the same chamber pressure. BUT both have warnings about shooting the longer heavier bullets in the 1 in 14 and 1 and 12 twist barrels due to the shorter throats and pressure increases with these combinations.
As a side note the same applies to the .308 and 7.62 NATO being one in the same cartridge by both the SAAMI and the European CIP.
As you can see below the throating is different on the 1 in 14/1 in 12 twist rifles and this normally is "WHY" people ask about how the rifle is throated.
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Also as you can see below there is a short throated 1 in 12 twist Remington 700 and a long throated military M16 with different twist rates.
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82boy it doesn't matter if its been 20 years or 2 years since Savage made a 1 in 14 twist, what is important is that there is a difference and people know why there is a conflict in twist rate throating and bullet weight. ;)
The topic of the thread deals with the factory Stevens 200 rifle. The fact is, there has never been a Stevens 200 rifle that has ever had a 1 in 14 twist barrel from the factory. Whatever the military did with twist rate, and throating is completely irrelevant. We are talking about the Stevens or Savage rifle here, nothing else. Savage uses a 1 in 9 twist barrel on all Stevens barrels, and they do not offer different chamber specks. I am sure what ever reamers that Savage used during the years of the slower twist (Over 20 years ago.) they are eather gone, mothballed, destroyed, or re-cut to newer specks.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
The more I think about it, I don't think Savage ever chambered a 223 in a 1 in 14 twist. If memory serves me right, the old 110's in 223 came in a 1 in 12 twist.
A very common complaint with Savage chambers is that they usually have a long throating. (Especially in the 223 rem and the 22/250 rem.)
It's the norm on those.. I've had 2 that I gave up on chasing the lands on.. I just milked the powder till they shot..
82boy
If you go back and read my first posting you will see I said "NOTHING" other than a 1 in 9 twist and also it is mentioned either in paperwork that comes with the rifle or at their website about the corresponding heavier bullets and longer throat.
I came back a second time to clarify my first posting because you for some reason found fault with what I said in my first posting. Let me go one step further, I have a torque wrench and use it and you dissecting my posting above will not change the fact that I use a torque wrench and that our opinions differ.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with my first posting, I own a Stevens 200 in .223, it is long throated and that is just one of the reasons I bought this rifle. I will say it again there is NO mention of any other twist rate than a 1 in 9 twist rate in my first posting.
So "WHY" are you even bringing my Stevens 200 posting up in the first place if it isn't one-upmanship or motivated by something else??????
Quote:
82boy
The topic of the thread deals with the factory Stevens 200 rifle. The fact is, there has never been a Stevens 200 rifle that has ever had a 1 in 14 twist barrel from the factory. Whatever the military did with twist rate, and throating is completely irrelevant. We are talking about the Stevens or Savage rifle here, nothing else. Savage uses a 1 in 9 twist barrel on all Stevens barrels, and they do not offer different chamber specks. I am sure what ever reamers that Savage used during the years of the slower twist (Over 20 years ago.) they are eather gone, mothballed, destroyed, or re-cut to newer specks.
Here is your original post. You said that "their" (Savage arms) web site says that they offer a two different twist and chamber combo's. "if you check their website you will see the 1 in 9 twist is for longer and heavier bullets with its longer throat. A .223 with a 1 in 14 twist is for the lighter bullets and a corresponding shorter throat." Savage doesn't offer a 1 in14 twist barrel, and do they not offer two different chamber specks.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
82boy
And if you notice there is a period (.) between these to sentences and I said NOTHING about Savage or Stevens in the "SECOND" sentence.
NOTHING was said about Savage or Stevens in my second sentence, "which" was to emphasize the twist rate in relation to the throat length. In a non-specific rifle forum the question of throat and twist rate is always being asked with the question "is it safe to shoot 5.56 NATO ammunition in my .223". The Remington 700 is made in two twist rates, a 1 in 12 and a 1 in 9, the 1 in 12 twist is for varmint hunters who wish to shoot the lighter bullets and the "Tactical Remington rifles have a 1 in 9 twist and these rifles are made to safely shoot 5.56 NATO ammunition. MY Stevens has a 1 in 9 twist and "CAN" safely shoot either .223 or 5.56 NATO ammunition. And this is the meaning of my first posting. Bottom line Savage/Stevens can't get into any legal problems with rifle over pressure mishaps if someone shoots surplus NATO ammunition in their "civilian" rifles because they have a "longer throat" and a 1 in 9 twist.Quote:
Period (.) A .223 with a 1 in 14 twist is for the lighter bullets and a corresponding shorter throat.
I just find it funny that the stevens has an even longer throat than any of my mil-spec AR's. I plan on changing to a bull barrel and single shot follower in the future anyway. Guess I will just have to stick it out until then. The longest I can load and still feed from the magazine reliably is 2.300.
michael word
The Weatherby rifles are very long throated also and its a trick some manufactures use to keep pressure down. You also have rated chamber pressure and then actual chamber pressure, meaning the commercial ammunition manufactures load their ammunition to lower pressures than what the cartridge is rated for.
The military isn't worried about lawsuits and loads its ammunition to rated chamber pressures, you also can't blame the commercial firearms and ammunition manufactures for their practices. The simple reason for this is because some people shoot surplus ammunition from foreign countries of questionable quality.
On top of this NATO EPVAT testing requires that an oiled proof cartridge that will double the bolt thrust be used for proofing. After proofing the weapon is checked with a headspace gage approximately .003 larger than the GO gage and if the bolt closes the rifle fails proof testing for excess lug setback.
Bottom line the American SAAMI does not require and our firearms manufactures do not use oiled proof testing cartridges on commercial firearms and this military extreme pressure testing method. So they take measures to keep the pressures down, the shooters safe, and protect the company from lawsuits. (long throated rifles with lower pressures)
As a side note a factory long throated rifle isn't the end of the world and your are not looking at a custom hand lapped barrel with a custom chamber and throat.
European countries have been using the oiled proof cartridge method since the turn of the century on military firearms.
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Well....after all that BigEd has said about that subject...all I can say is.....SHOWOFF!!... ;D
Actually one of my secrets to shooting so many .303 rounds in Enfield rifles with cordite throat erosion which means very loooong throated, is to torque the cartridge cases to keep them from vibrating excessively and get the best possible accuracy. ::)Quote:
Originally Posted by davemuzz
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(sorry 82boy the Devil made me do it) ;D
Tell me Oh Great Torque Master.... :P :-X :-\ ;D....do you have to also torque to a certain ft\lb the duct tape and string that has been so carefully attached to the torque wrench??
And.....is it proper to use Camo Duct Tape year round? Or only 30 days before and after big game seasons? :o :o
Didn't they stop using cordite in 303 about 1915 or so? I have a Lee Metford with a real slick bore for the first 4" or so from cordite but don't see anything more than normal long european miltary throat (same as mausers etc.) on my 1917 and later Enfields.
Any type or color duct tape will work just fine, my only warning about the torque method is to not be a cool cat and listen to Rap music when reloading.Quote:
Originally Posted by davemuzz
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.303 ammunition was loaded with cordite powder until after WWII, cordite ammunition was a early smokeless powder that used double base nitroglycerin powder. BUT it contained more nitroglycerin than what the majority of "pistol" powders use today. Early cordite powder was hot and erosive but later types of cordite powder had additives added to reduce the peak flame temperature. BUT again it was hotter than a single base powder but served the British well through two wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric in NC
Your metford rifle had "metford rifling" designed for black powder and eroded quickly with smokless cordite powder. The British enfield rifling was a deep five groove pattern designed for the hotter cordite powder.
"Text Book of Ammunition" dated 1936
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Army Ordinance Services small arms ammunition dated 1945.
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