Model 10 sba accuracy should be what?

Hi, picked up a model 10 sba in 308 recently, but while trying to sight it in ran across a box of hot Federal 180gr that was blowing some of the primers out. Contacted Federal and they disavowed all responsibility for it because they were over a year old, never the less had to take it apart to get the primers out of the action. Once I put it back together shots weren't anywhere close to the previous settings and wouldn't group at all.

Read up on torque settings and have tried some different ones, most 3 round groups now are in the 1-2 inch range at 100 yds, a couple under 1 inch. For a heavy barrel Savage this doesn't seem right, have an old Stevens 200 in 223 with a light barrel that will put 4 shots in a half inch and 5 in 3/4. Have tried a range of ammo with it from standard hunting loads from Remington, Federal and Winchester to some nicer stuff from ADI and handloads. I'm expecting it should be capable of shooting a 1 hole group, is that reasonable?

Thanks for the help!

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I'm expecting it should be capable of shooting a 1 hole group, is that reasonable?

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No.

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Once I put it back together shots weren't anywhere close to the previous settings and wouldn't group at all.

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Do you mean the groups you were getting with 180gr Federals that were blowing primers or some other types of ammunition?

Not with those Federals, won't shoot anymore of those but will break them down for components. When I reassembled the Model 10 originally I didn't torque the action and the shots were erratic. After torqueing it to 35lbs front screw 30 rear screw I'm getting 1-2 inch groups at 100 yards with several ammo choices, which is what I would expect out of standard hunting rifle. I'm thinking a heavy barrel should shoot better than that.

I also believe that your .308 should shoot better than that.

However, not every .308 likes heavy bullets.

Try 168 or 175 grain Federal Premium Gold Medal Match ammo with either SMK bullets or Berger bullets. All my .308s shoot them well.
One of my .308 performs best with heavy bullets from 175 gr to 200 gr. The others perform best with 150 gr to 168 gr bullets.

My two latest .308s shoot 3-round group averages in the 0.35 range and 5-round groups in the 0.448 to 0.455 on average.
But one shoots the lighter bullets, especially Tipped Match Kings 3-round groups under 0.3 on average and under 0.4 with 5 round groups.
The other shoots the 175 and 195 TMKs 3-round groups under 0.3 inches on average and 5-round groups under 0.44 on average.
That rifle doesn't have a wide a spread between the light and heavy bullets like the one that prefers the light bullets.
My oldest .308 shoots 5 round groups in the 0.5 - to 0.6 range.

I have never had .308 Federal match ammo blow primers even though most factory ammo is loaded pretty close to Pmax.
I think Nosler is loaded about 100 fps hotter and Norma is loaded about half way between the Nosler and Federal GMM.

It is possible that your chamber is a bit tight - that raises the pressure a bit.
A tight chamber was enough to cause high pressure indications in one of my 6.5mm Creedmoor rifles with ammo way below Pmax.

Someone in here sent back their varmint rifle because it was not a one hole shooter. Savage used their test load and confirmed it shot less than 1MOA and returned it to the owner (do not remember if they shot a 3 rnd or 5 rnd group).

Savage lists their test ammo in the FAQ part of their web site. For .308 Win it is 168gn Federal Gold Medal Match.

There is nothing wrong with it. For you to think you will have 1 hole groups with ANY rifle is a bit unrealistic. You said in the first post that you had A COUPLE groups under 1”. That is testimony to it being capable of shooting sub MOA. You need to find what your rifle shoots well and stick with it. Preferably by way of reloading. I have always found that my reloads, even with simple case prep, are more accurate than the BEST factory ammo.

Lastly, a heavy barrel is no more capable of accuracy than a Varmint or even Sporter barrel! Simply that the heavier barrel is less prone to warpage & harmonics.

Thanks for all the replies, I wish I had gotten some groups before I pulled the stock off so I knew what it was capable of at the factory setting. Yes every rifle is different and it is a learning experience, I'm thinking part of the answer will be in getting the torque setting right on the action screws. Thought about calling Savage and asking for the "factory" setting but read different posts here and they recommended experimentation to find the best setting. If someone has a preferred setting I would love to hear it! Right now it is shooting bad with the better ammo, ADI with 168 Sierra MK and Prvi 168gr match, and shooting best with standard Remington and Federal 150gr sp and S&B 147 fmj. For fmj to beat SMK hpbt doesn't seem right!

It is good to know 1 hole groups are unrealistic, but it should be doing better than 2 to 3 inch groups with match ammo. Yes I've had 2 decent groups out of 10-15, most make me shake my head. Want to be able to take it out to 300 yds (longest distance at local range) and beyond but can't till get it shooting better. Thanks CFJunkie for the group size, that's nice to have some comparisons.

wtex,

Those averages were with mostly match bullets in hand loads.
I only shoot factory ammo when I am breaking in the rifle to get an idea of what weights the barrel likes.
I am a nut for accuracy and quickly migrate to hand loading because I get the best accuracy with my hand loads.

With the .308 that likes lighter bullets the factory FPGMM 168s shot in the low 0.7s.
The same factory ammo shot in the mid-0.5s with the .308 that likes heavier bullets.
My oldest .308 averaged in the low 0.8s with the same factory ammo.
Most of the samples were small so I don't consider them statistically significant but they are indicative of what each rifle could do.

As you can see from my previous post, all my hand loads did better than factory, but that could be because I also got more accurate (mostly more consistent) as I got used to each rifle.

Best groups for the factory ammo were better than the factory average for each rifle, but using best groups can be deceiving.
Shooter induced variations can pull a shot back into a group just as easily as they can pull a shot out of a group.

It only takes one inconsistent set-up to destroy a group.
Check your groups to see if you have one outlier and a pretty close grouping for the other 4 shots.
That would indicate to me that I was causing the outlier more than suspecting the rifle.

A 1/8th inch variation in eye relief positioning behind the scope from shot to shot can raise or lower POI by 1/4 inch.

Having your stock off the notch in your shoulder between you shoulder bone and the clavicle can move the bullet about 1/2 inch left or right (mostly right if you stock is on your shoulder bone).

With a light rifle with a relatively short barrel, you need to watch out for muscling the stock when aiming.
It doesn't take much.

Changing the grip on your stock, or changing the tightness of your grip or press into your shoulder can also create variations in POI.

Any or all of the variations I listed can easily cause a sub-1-inch group to grow much larger.
It doesn't take many 1/2 inch variations to get a 2 inch group, especially with a new rifle that you aren't yet comfortable with.
It takes me at least 100 rounds to get myself comfortable behind a new rifle.
And if the stock is a bit different or the weight is different, it takes me longer to figure out what the consistent set up needs to be.
A light, short-barreled hunting rifle takes me the longest to get consistent with because the tendency to muscle the stock is greater.

Also, you didn't say what type of scope you were using.
A low power scope with a broad hunting reticle might be obscuring a large part of you aiming point at 100 yards.
All of my groups were shot with a target reticle (1/8th MOA) and fairly high power scopes (24 to 32X) appropriate for target shooting and load development. They were way too much magnification for hunting.
If you can't be sure you are aiming exactly at the same spot for every shot, you can be adding to the variations that grow the group size.

Give yourself a chance to get comfortable with your rifle and experiment with the action screw torque settings.
You didn't say if your stock was an Accu-stock with the aluminum frame (around 50 in.-lbs. torque) or a plastic stock without aluminum pillars which are very sensitive to torque settings (30 to 35 in.-lbs.).
The HS precision stocks have aluminum frames and V-block pillars and get torqued like an Accu-stock.
On some newer models that have aluminum chassis, the chassis can be torqued in the 60 in.-lbs. range.

All good information CF! It has a Vortex Diamondback 4-12x scope on it which I'm pleased with so far. The stock is the plain cheap black plastic stock. I tried some handloads I had made up for my old deer rifle, but it didn't like those either so back to the drawing board.

I tried torqueing to 35 -30 in/lbs front to rear to begin with, then 35-35 next which wasn't as good. Planning this week to start at 20-20 and shoot groups every 5 then compare it.

Verify your scope.

One other thing I noticed when I replaced the factory plastic stocks that I got on my two 12 FVs with Oryx chassis.
If the scope rings were too low, I couldn't get a rifle that shot great with the factory plastic stock to group with the Oryx.
I wasn't able to get a good consistent cheek weld and I was getting POI all over the place.
I put a set of higher rings on the scope on the Oryx and now it is shooting about 12% better than the factory stock.

Even though I am a great believer in getting the scope close to the barrel, you can overdo a good thing and make it tough to get in the correct optical plane when you try to get behind the scope consistently.
There are lots of little things that cause very large variations in POI.
You really have to look at all of them to find the one that is causing the biggest problem.

Is your stock an accu-stock,if it is,40" lbs is recommended on action screws,if it's just plastic 35 " lbs,you did not mention what trigger was set at.Is this a New or used rifle ?,if used would check for Carbon/Copper Ring at back of throat

It is a brand new rifle. I don't think it is an accustock, doesn't say so anywhere and didn't notice the the metal rib running down the bottom I hear accu stocks have. It does have the accu trigger (sticker on the side) and has a very light trigger pull.

Not sure how to verify the scope, other than the Vortex scope mounts are tight, torqued them to the recommended amount. I've shot about 100 rds through it, hoping breaking in a bit will help.

From what I can find out, the 10 sba is a 'made for Dick's Sporting Goods rifle' but there is no indication of what kind of stock it had.
If the bolt release is on the bottom at the front of the trigger guard, it is an Accu-stock with an aluminum frame and pillars.

If the bolt release is on the top side near the bolt slide, it is not an Accu-stock and is probably a factory plastic stock given it was made special for Dick's.
Dick's, or Cabela's either come to think of it, doesn't have expensive rifles with more expensive, third-party stocks made special for them.
Both of my Cabela's 12 FVs came with the factory plastic stocks.

Thanks Varget for the recommended torque weights. The bolt release is on the top side by the bolt so just a plain old plastic stock. Actually ordered it online from Classic so I could get it without a scope. Searching the web today have read some other 10 sba owners praising the accuracy, such as 3 shots covered by a dime and 5 covered by a quarter so it can do better. Everything I've heard about the 12 FVs sound like they shoot amazing, will be watch for Cabela's to put them back on sale.

Took the model 10 sba to the range again and played with the torque settings, will include in case anyone likes to experiment. Supposedly if try a range of settings and plot the results you should end up with a bell curve and then you pick the one that gave you the best groups. I tried 6 different settings, what I ended up with when plotted is a W, or a M if you turn it the other way around, as had 2 distinct minimums. Used an ammo it seems to like, Federal 150 gr, and the two settings it liked were 25-25 in/lbs and 35-30 in/lbs. 25-25 gave me the best 3 shot group at 13/16" (not hi tech, use a ruler). Need to repeat the test to verify. So far it has not liked any of my handloads I've tried so will work on that next, my goal is to get 5 shots under an inch center to center, and then to be able to do that consistently.

Could be lots of things....

Muzzles crown could be damaged either from when it was originally done at the factory or from cleaning etc....

Chamber issues. What kind of run out does your fired brass have.

Does the barrel copper foul bad? If it’s copper fouling bad then you can have a fouling issue. Heavy build up on top of the lands is a accuracy killer. From a good clean bore if you have fouling issues the accuracy will usually go sour in about 15-20 rounds.

Get a good stock and bed it or a chassis stock. Sorry but factory stocks and fit is a issue. Sometimes you get lucky with the fit and sometimes you don’t.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

All good suggestions Frank, did a barrel break in but not sure if it helped anything. Crown should be ok, not sure how to measure run out on the brass? Only have about 100 rds through it don't know how much copper fouling it could have. Do wonder about the stock, don't want to put another 2 or 3 hundred into it unless pretty certain will get an improvement in accuracy. Slid a dollar bill between the stock and barrel and slid it down to make sure it wasn't touching anywhere and it wasn't. Have read where people have done different things (metal rod, epoxy, etc) to stiffen up the plastic stock, may try that soon and see if it has any effect.

wtex
I read you did some torque test with your stock. I wasn’t clear on your procedure so I would like to offer this link that help me.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...rque-settings/

Hope this helps, (if you still need any)

Thanks olddav, I appreciate that, I can always use more help! I've seen the article briefly but need to go back and read it in depth. Took the model 10 back out today, hot and windy. Retried a couple of the previous torque settings with different ammo, most groups 1-2 inches, seems to like the 35-30 in/lbs more with a wider range of ammo. Did happen to load up some 155gr hp that shot a clover leaf measuring 7/16 inch center to center, now if I can do that consistently!

From what I've been able to tell, it seems to like bullets around 150gr and does worse the higher I move up in weight. Match ammo is generally 168gr or heavier, and it doesn't really like it, and it does really bad by the time I get up to 180gr. So it makes me think it is a stability problem, may try some even lighter loads, will see if I can find some good 130gr bullets to work with.

wtex,

With a 1:10 twist, I doubt you would have stability problems up past 200 grain bullets
I think your barrel just prefers lighter bullets. I am surprised that it doesn't shoot 168 match bullets well.
Even my light bullet .308 still is respectable with 168 grain SMKs and more than respectable with 168 TMKs.

Try some good match bullets in the 150 to 155 range.
In my .308 that likes the lighter bullets, I have had the best results (0.399 and 0.410 5-round group averages at 100 yards) with Sierra 155 TMK #7755 bullets with IMR4166 and IMR4064 powder. If you don't hand load, by some Federal Premium Gold Medal Match ammo in 150 grain or Nosler Custom Competition in 155 grain and see if you see a difference.
If you haven't tried them already, FPGGM 168 comes in SMK or Berger bullets and is just about the 'reference factory ammo' for .308 rifles.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

You said in the first post that you had A COUPLE groups under 1”. That is testimony to it being capable of shooting sub MOA.

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Respectfully disagree.
Too many internet commandos get a couple of 3-shot groups that measure "X" out of many, and proclaim their rifle shoots cloverleafs.

Any rifle that shoots "X", will do it consistently, every single time. A couple of 1/2" (or whatever) target groupings out of others typically larger is nothing but a random occurrence.

Competitions aren't won with anything less.

Problem is, these days the quality of mass-produced factory barrels is generally heads and shoulders above what they were just a decade ago due to advances in CNC machining and this has led to unrealistic expectations by the consumer in some cases.

Used to be a true one-minute factory rifle was a rarity, now most will guarantee that performance. Every barrel is different, and despite my reluctance to borescope any of my Savage factory barrels because they look like railroad tracks from all the button chatter they shoot minute of angle or a bit better once the "right" ammunition is developed.

A rifle shooting one ragged hole is the result of a complete/accurate system, sum of all the components from the stock/chassis to the barrel, trigger and consistent match-grade ammunition.

And don't forget the shooter, many of whom are not capable of consistent 1/2MOA performance. Yes, I am in that group. And, sometimes I struggle to maintain 1 MOA consistently.

You're probably right CF, I'll see if I can find some FGMM in 150 gr or the Nosler 155. Yes me the shooter is a limiting factor, I'll keep practicing.