Has anyone had a chance to play with this cartridge? On line reviews sound pretty good. Good hog medicine with 180 grain bullet. Seems like an easy build on a Savage action with an existing 223 bolt head, requires only a barrel change.
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Has anyone had a chance to play with this cartridge? On line reviews sound pretty good. Good hog medicine with 180 grain bullet. Seems like an easy build on a Savage action with an existing 223 bolt head, requires only a barrel change.
Haven't played with it at all personally, but supposedly Savage has plans to offer it in a few models that will probably be announced for 2020. One thing that still baffles me with this cartridge is why they (Winchester) opted for the 9mm groove diameter (0.355") rather than a standard .35 caliber groove diameter (0.357") on the SAAMI reamer print. This also amounts in the bore diameter being about 0.003" smaller in diameter than a standard .35cal bore (0.346 v. 0.349").
Based on some reading I've done around the web more than a few folks have run into chambering issues when loading .358" diameter rifle bullets where they can't get the bolt fully closed due either to lack of freebore or the lead-in angle.
Good to know. That kinda puts a damper on me building one. Not a lot of good 9mm bullet choices for loading that cartridge. No way I want a build that I'm forced to use factory ammunition or load "pistol" bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Baker
2.5 years ago I had an AR barrel made for what was called a 357 AR back then. I spec'ed a .358 1:14 twist barrel. The only problem I have is trying to find 180 gr bullets. Speer makes a good one for plinking, but I have never liked Speers for terminal performance. Hornady discontinued their Single Shot Pistol bullet and those that thought ahead and hoarded them are selling their stash now at a very nice premium. 200 gr bullets will work but have to be seated rather deeply. In a bolt gun you won't have to seat them so deep and can use a more blunt nose bullet.
I use 357 Max load data but I never chrono-ed it
I probably should have elaborated a little more in my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaCop
From my limited understanding (remember, I've only done a little reading on this and am by no means an expert on the cartridge), it seems initially there was a slight difference in the cartridge specs and the reamer specs. If you look at the drawings in the link I provided you will notice that the SAAMI spec was issued on 1/21/2019 and then revised on 4/9/2019. I'm not sure what was revised though.
As far as I can tell, all the factory loads are using .357" diameter bullets. Winchester has made available their 145gr FMJ bullets and 180gr Power-Point bullets for reloaders, which are .357" diameter. Most of the .35cal rifle bullets (.358" dia.) are 200gr and up in weight which may also require a faster twist rate. Given the .350 Legend essentially runs out of gas at around 250 yards with the 180-grain and down bullets, I really doubt you'd see much benefit from the heavier bullets.
What I would recommend is 1) do as much reading as you can online, and 2) talk to a couple different barrel makers offering this chambering and let them know you wand to be able to shoot .358" rifle bullets so they can best advise you. There should be a decent amount of information out there from actual owners and reloaders of this round to help you make a more informed decision.
Things like this are generally why I don't rush out to jump on the bandwagon when new cartridges come out. I like to let everyone else be the guinea pigs for the first year or two to iron out the kinks. It also lets me get a good feel on whether or not it's going to be a lasting cartridge or just a flash in the pan that fades fast after the novelty of it being new wears off.
The Legend isn't a total "no go" at this point. I plan on discussing a barrel with X-Caliber and will mention what you suggested. I have been reading all I can find on the internet and will continue to search.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Baker
Winchester bullets thus far have been micing at .355" diameter. I pulled and measured the 145 FMJs myself and a friend of mine measure a couple 180gr power-points. All we're at .355"
As to the issue with using .358 diameter bullets, it appears PTG has addressed that with a custom reamer; "358-AR Chamber Reamer (350 Legend necked up for 358 bullets)"
[QUOTE=Crazy888;459499]As to the issue with using .358 diameter bullets, it appears PTG has addressed that with a custom reamer; "358-AR Chamber Reamer (350 Legend necked up for 358 bullets)"[/QUOTE
Good to know, thanks.
The only issue with .358” bullets is with Winchester brass. The neck thickness is .013” but with stat line brass it is .011”. I reload speer 180 hotcors that I run through a lee .356” sizing die and have zero chambering issues in my x-caliber barrel. I also load fury 180s and they shoot less than half MOA out to 350 yards at an average of 2365fps. It is a fun and very accurate cartridge.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...dd2dd56773.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...87d348804f.jpg
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What stock is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by steve101610
McMillan A-5Quote:
Originally Posted by micky_blue
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The reason for the 0.355" bullets was they needed a taper in the case to aid in extraction. Also the reason for the larger web for the rebated rim.
And ALL bullets that are factory loaded are 0.355" Win and Federal and Hornady. That was the way it is designed. Saami spec allows for a 0.003" +- tolerance. So that is the reason they are allowed in most states that have a straight wall only cartridge rule for deer hunting.
I am using several lead bullets and having some good and bad. Lilgun powder which seems like everyone is using is a very unstable powder just like H110 is. They go from a nice round primer to blown in a .5gr increase. I am getting right at 1.25" at 100yds with the Lee 200gr bullet. I am going to be using different powders as I do not like how lilgun behaves. 5744 in the next range trip.
And this is in a AR platform. 16" BCA barrel. Spikes upper. Toolcraft BCG.
i think ill stay with 375 winchester or 38-55 winchester. i had a savage model 170 pump rifle in 30-30 rechambered and bored to 375 winchester. it shoots sierra 200gr pointed flat points at 2350 FPS at just under an inch all day long. which brings me to my biggest concern with the 350 legend ??? no crimp on the bullet and head spacing a rifle bullet on the case mouth- come on this is a rifle caliber. they need to print in large lettering "NOT FOR GUNS WITH TUBE MAGAZINES PERIOD" i can guarantee someone will try to make it work in a lever gun.
ever seen what happens when someone lets their brass get too long on an acp pistol case???? it crimps the whole thing in the chamber at the rifling. most times you get a hard kick from the over pressure, but i have seen it crack the locking lugs on 1911's, think what will happen with a rifle caliber?? i think we should pressure the DNR's to approve the 35 remington. its been doing it since 1908 and it handles bigger bullets too. it has just enough shoulder to headspace on literally. wheel was invented on this one a long time ago we need to let our voices be heard. explain to them that the 45/70 gov is a 1,000 yard target round!!!!
SB
next to 45/70
https://i.imgur.com/A5jKrKX.jpg
savage 170
https://i.imgur.com/hfhAObg.jpg
The 350 is a "rimless" 357 Max.. Use the same reloading info. It is a good 200 yard deer rifle. I have had good luck with the 140 Hornady Flex tip bullet and it shoots MOA. Granddaughter has taken a half dozen deer and 2 coyotes with it.
Bill
I think what happened here was in such a rush to get the .350 Legend to market that they really didn't think things through very well. Looking at the design and decisions made just raises more questions than answers when trying to understand why they made it the way they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savagebrother
1. Why .355" bullets and bore spec's? It's a rifle cartridge, use .358" rifle bullet diam. and bore specs to maximize selection of existing bullets. Instead we now have a very limited number of bullet options that aren't pistol bullets.
2. Why didn't they make it a belted case rather than relying on headspacing off the case mouth? Belted straight wall cases like the .450 Marlin are legal here in Ohio, and I assume it is in Michigan, Indiana, Illinois and Iowa as well (or could easily be made legal by adding them to the list of allowed cartridges with a little pressure from hunters and the industry).
I have requested a new 110 Hog Hunter in .350 Legend to review and hope to receive it in the next week or so with any luck (want to have the review up by Nov 1st if possible since firearms season opens mid-November in a couple states). What I'm most interested in is seeing what they did for a magazine and how well it feeds as feeding seems to be Savage's Achilles Heel lately when introducing new cartridges (.450 Bushmaster and .224 Valkyrie to name a few examples).
Regarding the .375 Win.: Who do we have to bribe or kill to get Hornady to bring back the .225gr SP bullets? I've eyeballed the newer 250gr GMX bullets, but being a solid I just don't know how they'd expand on deer sized game at .375 Win velocities. The .430 B.C. of the GMX would be nice to have though.
J.Baker, i agree, but i think the lack of bullets in 375 Winchester is because it fell by the weigh side was lack of users. it came out at a bad time and the confusion over it and the 38-55 win helped send it to the back burner. now jump ahead to recent times and people find that stiff 45/70 loads hurt to shoot during long range times. now everyone's looking for easy on the shoulder cartridges. also finding out that the 38-55 was/is a target cartridge capable of great accuracy. so here we arrive at 375 win which is a souped up 38-55!!! much faster and retains the former's accuracy, and is so much easier on the shoulder. biggest plus it shoots much heavier bullets, especially cast bullets, 250grs all the way up to 330gr monsters!! so these cartridges can handle anything in the usa and there's plenty of brass and i think these will get more popular as time goes by which i hope will bring out more bullets in these.
SB
I picked up 6 empty 350 Legend cases at the club range yesterday. When I got home, I tried sliding a .357 bullet into the case, no go. Next tried a 9mm bullet and it was very hard to push that bullet into the case? I don't know what rifle these cases were fired in but they sure are tight!
Thread Starter, you said it right when it comes to the 350 legend - i don't know???????
SB
The bore specs are the same when it comes to 9mm and 357mag/38spec. .355/.346 They all use the same bore dimensions. The throat and chamber is where the difference lies. They all use the same bore an groove.
No....they are not. It might say that on paper with SAAMI specs, but I will GUARANTEE if you measure and slug bores in any current production handgun, they are not the same.
Picked up two different types of Winchester factory ammo at the gun show yesterday, the 150gr Extreme Point and the 180gr Power Point. The 150gr bullets measure 0.350" and the loaded case mouth diameter is 0.376". The 180gr bullets measure 0.352" and the loaded case mouth diameter is 0.377".
Looks like PT&G has a custom reamer now available for wanting a .350 Legend that can shoot the more plentiful .358 bullets. For copyright/tradename reasons they had to call this quasi-wildcat the .358-AR rather than the .358 Legend.
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/18931...er-reamer.html
Here's a video of a guy that build one up on an Axis using a Black Hole Weaponry .358" caliber 1-11" twist barrel chambered with this reamer. As you'll see, going this route with the larger bore diameter and slightly different chamber cut the accuracy goes to hell with factory ammo using .355" bullets. As such, pick your poison - factory loads or handloads as you aren't going to be able to have it both ways with .358" bullets.
https://youtu.be/S0kX2ADI15s
To me, it’s a bit* more powerful 30 Carbine.
Its ok..But it’s not creating anything new! Just a slightly different way of doing the same thing. But if you are interested, go for it! There are certainly worse cartridges. Just believe there are much better.
Lots of better cartridges, but most of them aren't legal for deer hunting in many of the midwest states so it serves a purpose - especially for those who don't want to build a custom, don't reload, and/or don't want a gun that kills from both ends when you pull the trigger. Also, most of the legal straight wall cartridges are rimmed and won't feed worth a hoot in a bolt gun so you're limited to lever guns which don't typically offer the same level of accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I already have my .375 Win that I've hunted with the past few years which is plenty accurate and does the job out to 100 yards give or take so I'm not really in the market myself. I'm just putting the info out there for those who may be interested so they can make a more informed decision on whether or not it will suit their needs. Not everyone cares if it's the fastest or flattest shooting option out there or delivers the most energy on target, they just want something that will reliably get the job done without breaking the bank. I see it as a great cartridge option for young hunters and women who don't want to deal with a lot of recoil, and in terms of ballistics it's a noticeable improvement over it's closest standardized alternative that's readily available in off-the-shelf rifles, the .357 Magnum. Definitely worlds better than any slug gun as well.
If it proves to perform good on deer at reasonable distances (which from what I've seen/read thus far it seems to do) it will be popular here in the straight wall states, but I don't see it ever being a big seller anywhere else. Talking to a few local dealers they've been selling the crap out of them around here so clearly not everyone shares your view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Baker
Hmm, so for people who don’t reload & under ammunition laws that need an intermediate power, straight wall case, Rimless cartridge for hunting and don’t want to build anything.
Hmm, seems like about as small group of people as the Transvestite community... And the country is catering to that tiny group of people! So why not this one I guess..LOL!:becky::becky:
Well Dave, it's nice to see you have no problem belittling all those deer hunters in the states of Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and Ohio who fall under such cartridge restrictions and to whom such a cartridge might appeal to - simply because you personally aren't impressed by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Wasn’t belittling any hunters Jim. I apologize it seemed like that to you. Was simply making a political joke. I don’t have any problem with any caliber. Just don’t think there is anything “new” to discover.
Seems s every other week another fancy this case, or “ultra efficient” that cartridge comes out. But it’s really just rehashing the same stuff in a slightly different way and giving it a fancy name. I’m just not a “fan boy”.
I do apologize though you were offended. I really didn’t mean that the way you it seemed to you.
eat poopQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I was just razzing you a little as well in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
I don't however see any comparison between the .30 carbine and the .350 Legend. For starters, the .30 Carbine wouldn't be legal in any of these states because it doesn't meet the .35 caliber restriction. Secondly, who's building guns today chambered for the .30 Carbine and what rifle has it ever been offered in other than the M1 Carbine of the WWII era? I sure can't think of any off the top of my head.
Despite Winchester's feeble marketing team trying to make it sound more awesome and appealing than it really is by making extremely odd comparisons and bold claims that hold little water, the fact remains this cartridge was designed to serve one purpose and one purpose only. It wasn't designed to light the world on fire, nor was it designed to outperform an existing cartridge. What it was designed for was to meet the specific requirements of the hunting regulations in the aforementioned states that don't allow the use of more popular and well established bottleneck centerfire cartridges. That's it, plain and simple. And to that end they succeeded and the cartridge does just that.
Are there other cartridge that would be legal in these states "better"? That really depends on your definition of "better" and what criteria you're using to make that determination.
Does a .450 Bushmaster offer a similar trajectory and more energy on target? Sure - but at the cost of increased recoil and feeding issues (ask anyone who's purchased a Savage bolt gun in .450 Bushmaster how it feeds from the magazine).
What about the .50 Beowolf you ask? A great cartridge, but far as I know the only off-the-shelf way to shoot it is on the AR platform and a lot of people don't want to hunt with or simply don't like the ergo's of AR's. Ammo is also an issue as you're not going to find it sitting on most dealers shelves and there's only a couple boutique ammunition manufactures that make it.
.45-70? Great round and no issue with ammo availability, but extreme overkill for whitetail deer and more recoil than many people would like - especially in fairly light lever guns. Handloaders can load it down to address the recoil issue to a great extent, but then the ballistic advantages that it offers go out the window.
.444 Marlin? Pretty much the same situation as the .45-70, but with ammo and guns being less abundant.
.450 Marlin? Same as .444 Marlin
.375 Winchester? Obsolete with very limited bullet selection, and all but necessitates loading your own these days since Winchester only does a small run of their one load once in a blue moon.
.38-55? Great classic cartridge that is plenty accurate, and the ammo availability is much better than that of it's younger cousin (.375 Win), but it's still fairly obscure in this day and age and finding ammo on a local dealers shelf is a rarity. Most factory ammo is also downloaded to be safe in older guns which hurts down range ballistics.
.357 Magnum? Ammo and new gun availability is good, but it's pretty much limited in reach to 100 yards before it starts dropping like a brick and bullet expansion starts to be a concern. Very popular here in Ohio in lever guns for deer hunting, but have heard a lot of "walking wounded" stories as well.
.44 Magnum? Probably the best option out there prior to the .350 Legend coming on scene. Ammo and gun availability isn't an issue, though ammo can be a bit pricey.
So yeah, the .350 Legend fills a void - albeit a small one. If Winchester hadn't been so overly concerned with it working in AR15's it could have been a lot better, but it is what it is and it does what it needs to do.
I think where you and many others get hung up on with this new cartridge is that you're solely looking at it from the perspective of your own personal preferences. That's fine, but you can't simply ignore the fact that not everyone has the same needs and preferences as you do. A lot of folks don't reload so availability of factory ammo is a must (a big part of why the 6.5 Creedmoor is as popular as it is). A lot of folks don't like being beaten to death by the recoil of the bigger cartridges that would offer better terminal performance. A lot of people don't need a hyper velocity super efficient cartridge loaded with high B.C. bullets because all of their shooting is going to be inside of 200 yards. Maybe some people want something that offers better accuracy than most lever guns can offer - which for many of the rounds mentioned above is the only type of rifle they're offered in.
For folks like those the .350 Legend is a great option.
Oh I get it for sure. Honestly I’m not hung up on anything. Lik I said, I don’t dislike any cartridge. Even the ones I see no point in. And I do get there has to be a niche market. This is where text gets in the way. People think they “hear” some kind of attitude inflection, when there is none. LOL! These cartridges don’t bother me in any way. I would wager though that most people are interested in it because it’s NEW, not because they are in the small group that could possibly benefit.
Thank you you for sharing that Jim. A lot of good info in your post. And a good lesson is wisdom.
It is getting crazy like that. I mean you tell somebody their idea is stupid and the next thing you know they are insulted. People read way to much inflection into things.
Some of us still have a sense of humor. I smirked when I read the post :becky::becky::becky::becky:.
I have the 357 AR only because I am a 35 cal slut and wanted something that the next guy didn't have. Now that the Legend is out, I have to explain my round to the ignorant
My state lets you hunt with any centerfire as long as it in not a machine gun. I didn't build mine to hunt with, it is a p/u gun that will dispatch most things I come across.
Anxiously awaiting your review...Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Baker
Same here!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaPapa
Just finally got the rifle in late last week - so much for getting my article out before firearm season opened in Iowa, Illinois and Michigan.
We did slug the barrel though and the bore groove diameter on the Savage barrels is .355" (9mm).
I got tired of waiting for Winchester to ship the XPR SR in 350 Legend so I placed an order today for a 110 Hog Hunter in 350 Legend.
Silencerco just announced the Omega 36M so I'll be ordering one of those as well as soon as my dealer gets one.
They should have used .357 diameter pistol bullets and basically created a larger 357 mag much like the 450 bushmaster is a longer 454 casull/460 smith
I sent an inquirey to Winchester ammo today asking about the availablity of their Super Suppressed ammo for the 350 Legend. They advised it would be January.
What bottom metal and mag did you use? I am looking to take a top bolt release Model 10 and put on an X-Caliper barrel and was wondering how to feed the sucker
Wonder if it will expand and distance....Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaPapa
Just curious here, no hating, but what are the reasons for limiting rifles to straight walled cases? Since the .444 and 45-70 are included, I fail to see striking power as a reason.
In Virginia we have to have greater than .23 caliber for deer, bear, or elk.