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Hello All,
at our Boy Scout Camp, we have several early Mark 1 FVP's that will not extract. As others have suggested, I removed the bolt/firing pin/extractor/ejector
arms and gave it a good cleaning. All of the parts move freely-no luck, so I gave the breech/barrel a very good cleaning-still no luck. The funny thing is,
a un-fired shell will extract/eject, but not a fired shell ??? Any ideas/suggestions ?
Have you tried different ammo?
Follow up on failure to extract--I did as many suggested, and did a good brush cleaning in the chamber-this worked. After a good cleaning-in good light, you can see that the chamber is bright and shiny-not dull gray--now every shell extracts !
Don't know how I missed this earlier, but glad you got it sorted out.
Gary: I have a Mark II BV, which I purchased 6 month ago to use in Prone matches. Excellent & smooth trigger pull (unlike my A22) and zero problems, until last months match. Fired shells would not extract. Fortunately the stages are 20 minutes but it was a pain extracting with my fingernail and it threw off my score. Ammo was CCI standard velocity. After match I gave the bore/bolt a good cleaning and I think, as with your weapon, that should solve the problem. I think it doesn't take much to gunk up the works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Jordan
There is a lot of discussion on this topic and I've read every darn one of them!! The Mark II BV EXTRACTION problem started after about 800 rounds. I also have a A22 firing the same ammo - CCI standard velocity - with zero EXTRACTION problems. The problem is 2 out of the 5 rounds won't extract.
I use the Mark II in prone matches. The extraction problem during a match breaks the rhythm and is annoying - it's annoying whenever it happens. Before the last match I cleaned the bolt and breech face and the used a short bore brush. It wasn't enough of a cleaning to solve the problem. It's a pain dealing with the "C" clip and I didn't want to put any strain on it taking it off & on.
I don't want to give up on this gun but the thought has crossed my mind. It's a tack driver. At 50 yards the groups are 1/2" to 3/4" (ALL in the X) and at 100 yards all shots are in the 10 ring (under 2"). I'm shooting as well as my friend who shoots a CZ457 but he doesn't have a Extraction problem. Another friend is shooting a Ruger Precision Rimfire (he has zero extraction problem) but on my worse day my Savage can shoot better than his Ruger. We traded rifles one day and I could not duplicate my Savage results. He beat his Ruger results with my Savage.
What's frustrating is it's an intermittent problem. Since I can easily pop out the spent shell with my finger nail it should be an easy fix. What's exasperating about the problem is Savage is aware of it and after producing thousands of these weapon you'd think they could fix the problem.
Yesterday, I spoke with them and they are sending me a extractor, "C" clip and cartridge guide. I mentioned the double "C" clip fix. The CSR indicated she had heard of it but if the engineers thought it was necessary to add the second clip they'd have designed it that way. If the "C" clip is the problem perhaps they could design a better one!!
Yesterday, I remove the "C" clip and did a complete cleaning - I scrubbed the devil out of the extractor, firing pin, cartridge guide, breech face, bore and used a pipe cleaner on all slots.
One suggestion involved the wax deposit on the ammo. I put about 50 rounds in a baggy and sprayed on some Break Free Powder Blast to remove any deposits. In another bag I sprayed the ammo with Rem Oil. We'll see which one works.This probably shouldn't be necessary but I'm open to anything at this point.
I realize I didn't spend a ton of money on the Mark II BV but the point is regardless of what a person spends on a item it should function completely. When I purchased the weapon they didn't say it will only extract 3 out of 5 shells. Had my research indicated the extraction problem I never would have purchased the gun. I wonder about the quality of American made guns. If I can't fix the problem I'm getting rid of the gun and the CZ457 American is looking better and better. On the other hand, I have 20 minutes per stage so I have plenty of time to pop out the shells. Half the prone match shooter in my matches are loading one shell at a time.
Note: The CZ457 bolt appears to have the same "C" clip setup as the Savage. I couldn't find any extraction complaints for the CZ457. Both the CZ457 & the Savage have the same system - one works and the other doesn't - maybe it is the ammo I'm using.
I have the same problem with my MKII. Only complaint on this rifle. CONSTANT cleaning. I only shoot it suppressed which compounds the problem.
The weakening C-clip for the extractors has been a common issue for many years. The clip essentially acts as a spring to keep tension on the extractors, and like most springs they wear over time and lose some of their rate. As for why the Savage's have the problem and others that use a similar design don't is anyone's guess, but I would imagine it likely has to do with the material being used for the C-clip or the heat treat on it.
As for the CS rep saying if the engineers thought it was needed a 2nd clip they would have designed it that way, just remember they are phone jockeys making a little over minimum wage and generally have little to know actual firearms knowledge. Given the design dates back to the 1960's from engineers that worked for a company (Cooey) that was defunct long before Savage purchased the company that took over Cooey (Lakefield Arms), the whole statement is a little laughable.
Doubling up the clip has been a proven and time tested solution for this issue.
Mr. Baker: Thank you for taking the time to respond. The rifle is now squeaky clean. This week I'll try the ammo I cleaned. I'm hoping that is the solution. If not, next step will be to double the "C" clip. I can't find the article I was looking for on the double clip installation - I think the second clip does not need modification and I can just slap the new one from Savage on top and that's all that's needed.
Yep, second clip just snaps on right over the top of the first. No modifications needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don G
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don G
Is it only happening with CCI Std Vel ammo?
With my MK II FV after a few hundred rounds of shooting to find 'best grouping ammo', I found the best grouping ammo in my MK II was CCI Std Vel ammo. So I picked up a couple of bricks. Shortly after that was when the fail to eject issue appeared. With CCI Std Vel ammo I was getting fail to eject after fail to eject, each one harder to flick out with finger nail. I'd clean the rifle only to have the issue come back after a few rounds. Rem Bucket of Golden Bullets would shoot crappy 4" groups all day with no fail to ejects.
One of the CCI bricks I'd picked up just had way to much lube on the brass. I figure in a bolt action, it melts instantly when you shoot and almost instantly freezes to chamber and brass before you can eject, but a semi can. Does not matter how much you clean when there is so much excess lube on the brass. Same ammo cycled in my Savage A22, and Ruger MK IV, but really dirtied up the magazines and action.
CCI Std Vel Ammo from 2 different lots numbers.
- Box on Left, to much chunky lube on brass, it's even in the plastic divider and on the box, rims don't look as defined, my MK II had lots of fail to eject with this lot.
- Box on Right, different lot, not as much lube on brass, worked fine in my MK II, no fail to eject issues, runs much cleaner in the semi's
https://i.imgur.com/Io5Lyaoh.jpg
I've read that the Savages supposedly have a 'tighter' chamber tolerance which helps with the accuracy we are looking for, but I think the 'tighter' chamber in the Savage compounds problems of excess lube.I continue to use CCi Std Vel because it does shoot really well my MK II FV. Now my LGS lets me check a box or 2 from a new brick before I buy.
Czy Horse: Thank you for the info on the CCI SV ammo. At least half of the guys I shoot with in the PRONE MATCHES have rifles that cost 3 times more than my Savage. They use ammo I never heard of and when I found out what it cost I'd rather put the difference between CCI and their stuff into buying beer!! At 50 yards the majority of my rounds are in the X ring. At 100 yards the majority are in the 10 ring. Obviously, not all are but that's not the fault of the rifle or ammo -- that's on me. With those results I don't know how much more I can ask of the CCI SV ammo.
I just returned from the range. I did the best cleaning job on the Savage that I've ever done. Before going to the range I placed 15 rounds in a plastic baggy and sprayed them with Break Free Powder Blaster. I did the same with another 15 rounds and sprayed them with Rem Oil.
The first 10 round group I shot was with the Rem Oil. I wiped them off with a shop rag before loading the magazine. There we NO failure to extract.
I cleaned the bore with the "Brush n' Mop" by Gunsmither - I use this tool on a Browning Buckmark. Next I wiped off 10 rounds of the Powder Blaster with a shop rag and loaded a different magazine. There were NO failure to extract.
I cleaned the bore and loaded 10 "fresh out of the box" in another magazine.They felt waxy compare to the Rem Oil/ Powder Blast. Rounds #2 & #9 failed to extract.
I think in my case it's the ammo that's causing the failure to extract. It's a pain having to clean the ammo but it's no big deal - I'm retired and have time on my hands. I'm not sure what will work best - Rem Oil or Powder Blaster. Obviously, the Rem Oil ammo felt a little oily -- it's an oil!! The Powder Blast were super clean. Maybe I'll Powder Blast and then add the Rem Oil.
Might try polishing the chamber to see if that helps any.
I was wondering about doing the chamber of my MK II FV, but unsure how.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Baker
Czy Horse: I also was wondering how to polish the bore? Carbon ring could be a large part of the problem. I had never heard of it until I learned about it on the Browning Buckmark forum while dealing with a problem on my son's pistol.
I don't think my carbon ring was as serious as it could be because I could flip out the round with my finger nail. Anyway, there is a good article on the subject. Google "A clean rifle is a happy rifle".
Yesterday was my 2nd day at the range with NO extraction problem using the ammo I cleaned. If I feel any resistance I'll squirt in a small blast of Powder Blast and use the tool I purchased from www.gunsmithertools.com - you could make your own but for $12.95 it's not worth my time. The article states Hoppe's #9 is better than Powder Blast and maybe it is for more severe problems than mine.