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Like many, I've had trouble with hard bolt lift, retraction, etc. I can work around the problem by loading down my ammo but that's getting to be a pain.
Today, just for giggles, I tried to close the bolt on a "no-go" gauge from PTG and the bolt closed just like it would on a "go" gauge This can't be good can it? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
That's why the call it a no-go gauge, I suspect. If a no-good gauge goes that's a bad thing. When you get yours done can you send me those gauges? Would like to see where mine's at. FWIW, switching from hornady to lapua brass did fix my bolt lift problem but I'd like to know that my headspace is right...
I spoke with a tech at PTG today after another fruitless conversation with Savage Customer Service. Apparently Savage runs fast and loose with headspace dimensions and the tech was very familiar with the 110BA problems. He suggested setting the barrel back to "go" gauge and then rethroating forward .060". I ordered a reamer and we'll see what happens. At this point I've got nothing to lose since I'm about to buy a Shilen barrel for the rifle. I'll keep you posted. If the reamer works I've saved $450.00.
I also switched to Lapua brass (both commercial and military), and it helped, but I can't get over 2650fps without bolt extraction problelms.
That round should be capable of 2950fps with a 250gr projectile since that's what the Lapua military ammo does.
I'll be happy to loan out the headspace gauges once I get my rifle squared away.
When did the US military start publishing their ballistic data?
Who said anything about " U.S." Military ballistic data. As far as I know the U.S. Military hasn't done much more than play around with the .338 Lapua Magnum. It is used extensively by Canadain, British, Australian, Swedish and German forces though, and ballistic data is readily available. Wikipedia is probably the easiest to access.
The standard military ball round as loaded by Lapua is their 250 grain lock-base bullet at 2950-3000fps. That's what I've been trying to duplicate. While I've gotten some excellent accuracy the velocity still falls short before the rifle starts getting balky.
Thanks!
My 110BA has no problem with bolt lift, or any other pressure signs, shooting 300gr SMK's with 91.5 gr of N570, getting a muzzle velocity of about 2675 fps. Grouping at 100 well under 1/2 MOA.
New Lapua brass. Excellent concentricity right off the bat, with a case capacity of about 111-112 grs H2O.
What brass?
That N570 Load was one of the first ones I tried, though with 300 gr. Berger Hybrids instead of SMK's. Still haven't gotten my reamer but hopefully today. Really looking forward to trying the rifle with correct headspace and sufficient throat area.
Success! I changed so much on the rifle that I went back to start loads and worked up to where I wanted to be. 2900fps with 250 gr lock-base or scenar Lapuas and 2700fps with Berger or Sierra 300s.
I only extended the throat .040" but the reamer from PTG has a much shallower angle than the factory throat. Set the headspace to a "loose" go gauge. Now the rifle does what it's supposed to. It seems to be just a tad more accurate too, although it was no slouch before.
PS- You guys using the Lapua Military brass (headstamp Lapua 86) - I've had two case separations so I'm going to retire it and stick to commercial Lapua brass.
What was your headspace problem? Just a stiff bolt? From what vie been reading, the bolt problems may have been eliminated when switching over to new Lapua brass.
QuickLoad shows impressive pressure increases with small differences in case capacity. I measured the fired cases at ~112 gr of water. Using the stock case values in QL of 108 gr, boosted the chamber pressure a few thousand psi with the same loads.
Could the cases have been your problem?
Using the Sinclair shoulder gauge I'm seeing fired Lapua (not military) brass measuring ~2.196", and the unfired cases just a bit tighter at 2.193". There hasn't been the least signs of pressure with 91.5 gr of N570, with the 300 SMKs seated with the ogive at 2.8545", (OAL ~ 3.720") which is giving about a .018" jump to the lands. Muzzle is close to 2700 fps, and the groups are very tight - < 1/2MOA.
bigjet - what does your shoulder gauge measure? The numbers you give don't correspond to any .338 case dimensions I can find: Base to bottom of shoulder 2.161", base to datum line 2.4425", base to top of shoulder 2.724".
My fired cases measured 2.4515 base to datum line. While I don't believe that would be a problem except for stretched brass, I prefer headspace to be closer to minimum SAAMI specs. At $2.50 each I want the brass to last as long as possible. Savage gets away with sloppy headspace because of the "floating head" bolt, but it's not an ideal situation and is easily corrected.
Most of my problem was caused by the short sharp leade (freebore)... I suspect that your chamber was cut with a fresh reamer while mine was cut with a tired one.
I'm using the Sinclair Bump Gauge, #20B. It simply picks its own reference point...I don't think it's a SAAMI datum, which I have not been able to find anywhere for the .338 LM. A fire-formed case should be close to the dimensions of the chamber, itself, minus a linkage spring back after forming to the chamber walls. The gauge, at closer inspection, gives me about 2.1985", which is a bit larger number than I originally gave you. A arbitrary datum seems okay to me, as long as the shoulder is set to slightly less than that value.
As to the leade in my rifle, I measured the chamber to 2.7495" using a Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge insert, and measured the 300gr SMKs at 2.8545" to the lands. Seating the projectiles to 2.8525 ogive, or so, seems to work pretty well for me.
I think the serial number on my 110BA shows it to be about number 240, or so, off the line. Don't know how well the reamer was holding up for the cut, but the rifle is very impressive in terms of accuracy. Shoots a bit better than my 22-250, but I'll still leave the ground hogs to the 22.
I haven't zeroed with a batch of Scenars I've loaded, nor with the Berger Hybrids, which I'm still waiting for. I sent the original batch they sent me back after finding out about the slump issue. Probably didn't need to do that with only ~2700 fps MVs, but they're changing the boattail angle also, so why shoot the older design?
When you decided to ream the rifle, did you give any thought to bringing it up to a .338 LM AI?
Accurate indeed! I put four Berger 300 Hybrids (moly) literally into one hole this morning and it was windy. Only 100 yards but I was impressed. It was windy enough that I seriously considered turning around and going home without shooting. I pulled the fifth shot about .250" to the right. The Bergers shoot just a little better and have a better BC than SMKs and since they cost about the same that's probably what I'll stick with. As soon as the new ones become available I'll stock up. I've only got about 75 of the old design left
I didn't ream the whole chamber, just pushed the throat forward and changed the leade angle of the lands. I see no need for more powder so haven't thought about the AI idea.
I use a Redding Competition Neck Die with a .365" bushing and a Redding Body Die which sets the shoulder to SAAMI specs. Now that my headspace is the same I shouldn't have any more problems
Yes, overlapping holes at 100 seems not too difficult with this rifle. I kind of wish I hadn't sent the Bergers back. I'm awaiting 350 of them when the new ones are released. I think they'll be my standard round once I shoot the 50 SMKs, and the 50 Scenars I have loaded. Also changing to Federal 215M primers, which I had a whole bunch of trouble finding. Used Winchester LRM primers up until now.
Just recently got a Redding Competition seating die, which I haven't used yet, and have an order in for the Redding neck and body dies, too. I ordered three bushings, .365, .366, and .367. With the results you're getting, looks like I may only need the one.
I have access to a couple of 1000 yard ranges here in WV, and hope to stretch out the rifle before the weather gets too brisk. I'm using a Premier Reticles 5-25 mildot scope, which is really a great tactical scope, but I'm a little uncertain as to how well it will serve on 1000 yard targets. The FFP reticle will get kind of large at 25 power.
By the way, I worked for an outfit that Captain Eddie started. Good old EAL.
You shouldn't have any trouble at 1000yds. We use similar scopes (except for price) and I normally just leave mine at 25. For zeroing at 1000 I use clay pigeons and have no trouble with my Mildot-bar reticle getting in the way. I use a Millett LRS 6-25x56 and am really happy with it. Great light gathering with the 56mm objective.
The .365" bushing will probably be all you need if you stick with Lapua brass. My last step before priming and loading is to check the necks with a .338 mandrel from a Hornady neck turning tool. Every once in while I'll run across a loose or tight one and I just re-size that piece and check it again.
Before you buy a whole bunch of the Federal 215M primers test some over a chronograph against your Winchester LRMs. I've found the Winchesters to be very consistent over the years and haven't yet found anything better. In .223 the Winchester Small Rifle primers outdo everything else on the market, whether bench-rest or match. I've tested them all and if I'm going to compete I'll use Winchesters every time.
What did you do at Eastern? Another great bit of history lost forever.
I haven't gone beyond 500 yards with any rifle, and even that was long ago with open sights - an M-1. I did watch a gang shoot the 1000 yds for competition a couple of weeks ago, but no one was shooting a .338. It looks to me like the wind is the big deal at that range. 3 mph at 90 degrees looks like about 25", and that would be way off the paper.
I have the K&M neck turner, with the .338 mandrel, but the doggone Lapua brass really doesn't seem to need it. Maybe .0005 off max.
I loaded the Scenars with the Federal primers, and I'll see how they do. It's really hard to improve on cloverleafs, and that's what the Winchesters were giving me. I'm really waiting for the Bergers to show up. Once I have them, I think that's all I'll be loading.
Glad to hear you have no problems with the FFP reticle. One of the guys at the shoot suggested it would be a problem, saying that you have to be able to split the bull with the reticle. Of course, I'm not really intending to be a serious target shooter. Just want to know that I can hit a 12" circle at 1000 yards most of the time.
I flew at EAL for 21 years, and walked out with the strikers in '89. Never went back. It was a character-building experience. Are you flying for a living?
I don't turn the necks on Lapua brass either. I just use the mandrel to check for consistent neck tension. Very important for good accuracy, especially if you moly-coat bullets like I do.
I can't dope wind worth a crap either. Luckily I have a couple of friends that can and I usually have them spotting for me.
Flew as a private pilot and was a crew chief on Hueys in the Army, but age, diabetes, and hypertension took care of that. I've got an older friend that still flies, but he shouldn't. Scares me to death and I wont fly with him any more.
Has Berger told you when they're going to ship the new 300s? Nothing on their website except that they're working on it. I'll check with the Midway website. They usually have an expected availability date.
I shot a bit at 300, 500, and 1000 yards yesterday. I think I have a little work to do on neck tension, but still managed < 1.5 inches at 300, not counting one flier out of 6, 500 about 4", but it may have been a bit breezy, and evaporated a clay pigeon at 1000 yds, but it took 3 shots...one 6" over, one 6" under, but the 3rd right on it.
I think my early reloading may have created some neck tension problems. I saw a ED of about 60 fps on the shots I chrono'ed, though most were at 2705 to 2725 fps. I do recall having had some pretty good pull when I resized the cases, and I hadn't lubed the interior necks. Still don't have the Redding bushing neck die, but am surely thinking that will be a great help. Pretty careful about measuring each load of powder to 0.1g, and bullet depth to within a couple of thou, so the only thing I can figure on the muzzle velocity spread would be neck tension.
I guess it's all a learning process, limited only by how fanatical we want to be. But, I'm pretty sure a coyote at 1000 yds would be at great risk even as things are now.
All in all, the 110BA is one very fine, and extremely accurate rifle. Hard to believe it's just a factory production rifle, although the accutrigger is not quite the same as a well adjusted Jewell.
Looking forward to the dies, the new Berger 300gr Hybrids, and a source for the N570 which I'm starting to get low on.
Cheers
I've only loaded one batch of ammo with the N570 and didn't chrono them. Wasn't too thrilled with it (especially the price). I've gotten my best accuracy with Accurate's XMR4350, but it's too close to the ragged edge on pressure. Most of us here use Alliant's Reloder22. It's half the price of the Vitah Vouri. It's made in Sweden and 81gr seems to be good for the 300's, The Berger Hybrids aren't sensitive to seating depths so I just seat them to magazine length.
You're right, the 110BA trigger is pretty sucky. I put a Rifle Basix SAV1 in mine last week and It might turn out okay if I ever get it adjusted right. So far though it's been more trouble than it's worth. Sure wish Savage would sell their target accu-trigger. I'd slap one in the 110BA in a heartbeat. It's the best trigger I've ever used. Wonder if Fred's (SSS) Competition Trigger would work in the rifle.
Might have to call Lisa next week and ask since I'm planning on sending the 110BA in to get the action timed and trued anyway.
Called Berger and it looks like some time next year before they'll have the new 300's out. Don't know why they wont keep the old design on hand too. Guys like us that push them out at 2700fps don't have the problem. They also revised the BC on the old design down to .818. Still better than SMKs but not by as much.
Was your reticle a problem at 1000?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Eddie
The N570 wasn't as accurate as the 4350 and wasn't enough better than RL22 to justify $40.00 (plus iffy availability) as opposed to $20.00 and available everywhere. I'm getting right at 2700fps with 81gr of RL22 and 300 gr moly coated bullets.
Someone on this forum mentioned that SSS had reduced power accu-trigger springs. Sure enough, when I called Lisa she said she'd drop one in the mail for me. That makes three options for better trigger pull. Trim the existing spring (not until I have another one on hand), the reduced power spring from SSS, Rifle Basix (so far not recommended) and the Competition Trigger from SSS. Since I prefer the accu-trigger concept I'll probably go with option one or two, but if all else fails I'll get the Competition Trigger. I've just about given up on the Rifle Basix. So frustrated in fact that I took my Garands to the range yesterday. Love those Rifles!
The SMKs will do well at long range. Just sort them by weight and uniform the meplats. It only takes .001 or .002" to get them as square as the Lapuas and Bergers. Even the SMK .223s and .308s improve with a little TLC.
.9" at 1000 isn't much when you consider the size of the X ring on a 1000yd target. Best groups I've ever seen at 1000 were about 6". Unfortunately they weren't mine