Technology backlash coming?

I am sitting here watching some hunting shows, marvelling at the multiple gizmos that these fellows use and seem to require, to be successful. Some of it I agree with. Quality optics ( if you hunt long range) and range finders ( for bow, frontstuffer or long range). But some stuff... Not so much. Last time I looked for a new scope, I couldn't believe all the junk cluttering up a nice field of view. Too confusing to the eye.
Combine all this with the blinds, ozone generators, trail cams, feeds/attractants etc and its enough to make you wonder how we ever shot a critter without them!
Along that same line, all the new calibers, that truth be told, don't do anything the old ones couldn't do. Nothing wrong with new per se, but nice and necessary don't always mean the same thing.
I'm still old school. I like my muzzleloaders and I've recently acquired a superb old Savage M99 30-30. The frontstuffers are aperture sighted and the 30-30 soon will be. Scopes are nice, and sometimes do help, but as most deer etc, are shot this side of 150 yards and a lot a LOT closer, taking shots way out there almost seems like shooting rather than hunting. To each his/ her own. I do admire the skill though...
I believe that when you take an animal's life, you owe it the quickest death you can give. But hunting is the totality of the experience, not just the kill. To the average non- hunter, I wonder if all this gives the impression that we're all about the kill and filling tags instead of being enriched by the experience.Maybe , someday, they'll make an app for that too. Meanwhile, I'll take my old peep sighted .30-30 M99 and stumble around in a spot that looks good. Maybe sit under a tree for a spell, and wait for something plump and tasty to walk by...

Do you know why hunting tv shows exist? Their sole purpose is to convince you that you need to buy all that unnecessary garbage to kill something. Just like most of today's camouflage patterns (Mossy Oak, RealTree, etc) are designed to look realistic and attract buyers in the store more than they are to be effective at breaking up your outline when you're out hunting. Only "new-fangled" gadget I like and lay claim to is a basic range finder - not for long range hunting (I'm adamantly against it), but rather to verify the range as distance can be quite deceiving at times.

I get that. Folks just trying to make a living. My camo is old '80s issue BDUs. Its like fishing lures. Its great if they catch fish, but most are designed to catch fishermen.
I teach Hunter Ed courses and I found an excellent use for those shows. I tell the students that old farts like me had to listen to older farts about how to tell if you hit the critter when it runs off. They used to say if its tail is up you missed. Sooo not true! I tell them in 6 months you can get a lifetime with of experience learning if a critter is alert, relaxed, hit or not. They are quite useful for that.

I guess we could have a long discussion on the actuall definition of the term "hunting"?
Differing opinions on things as a rule are in and of themselves pretty harmless, and we can all get along pretty well having whatever ones suit our fancy.
Listening to experts on the internet, some of whom have no or at least very little actual experience on the given subject, has become very common.
But it happens, and to some degree it always has, even before the internet. We have for the most part been trained to respect authority, even apparent authority.
As a hunter, my father was somewhat unfortunate in being born in Philadelphia in 1906. Very few had cars which were very poor anyway, even less roads, especially paved ones, then WW1, followed by the depression, and then WW2 when everything, especially gas was heavily rationed.
He had a grand total of maybe 5 days deer hunting experience more than I did on my first trip in 1947, 2 of which had happened a year earlier.
We both shot our first deer in 1948, but he was the authority on how to do it not me, and I learned not to forget that. lol

I remember back in the mid 70s reading an article in a well known outdoor magazine written by a guy by name of Starns.
(maybe Stearns)
He wrote regular articles for that magazine under the heading, "Starns at large".
That was the whole problem, an idiot like him should never have been running around at large, and writing articles in national magazines.
Anyway, this particular article was written about a very new device (at the time), and known as a fish finder.
I actually had one then, a Lowrance green box portable unit, and i had used it extensively. They were the type he was referring to, and simply were what they were, and arguably still are, a depth finding device. But Starns predicted that within a very short period of time, if not restricted, they would lead to the elimination of most fish.
Jazzbos like me, "his exact words" would be pinpointing the fish locations and wipe them out.
I had learned about that article as a result of correspondence I was then having with a person who was a member of the PA Game Commission. Someone with authority, having authority if you will.
He recommended I seek out the article and read it, which I did, which was after he flat out called me a slob hunter in a letter, because of my preferred hunting method. His opinion and concern was that long range hunters were ruining hunting in the true sense, and if left unchecked, would wipe out the deer. They were shooting without even knowing if they were hitting the target, and if it made it over the hill they never even bothered going after it. Those among other things too numerous to mention.
Anyway it wouldn't be too late for me to redeem myself, if I saw the light, changed my ways and got into line with his way of thinking.
He cited a program called the SPORT program, and sent me information on it along with a button to wear on my cap.
"Sportsmen Policing Our Ranks Together", possibly some older PA guys might also remember that program.
In my last letter, I told him I had read the article and my opinion of it, and offered to show him how they actually worked.
I had earlier offered him an opportunity to go along on a hunt for a day.
The "Commish", was a full time educator of our youth, also an outdoor writer on hunting and other outdoor related articles in publications like the Pittsburg Press and others. He also had started publishing an outdoor publication called the Mountain Journal, and had a weekly half hour outdoor related radio show on which he would throw red meat questions to his hand picked guests.
Mind you this was the 70s, does it all sound familiar?
He was also an elected county commissioner, which is what got him the appointment on the 5 member game commission by the then Democratic governor Milton Shapp.
He alluded to having considerable support in his effort in having laws implemented to restrict that method of hunting.
For sure there were numerous articles written about it, especially in the northern parts of the state where it took place, in which some game protectors spoke out against it. It got so heated, that groups of us requested and had meetings with the game commission.
One was a meeting with the then chief of law enforcement in his Harrisburg office. When we arrived, the executive director of the commission was also in the office waiting for us, and he took the time to thank us for our concerns in the matter.
We left that meeting with the distinct impression that although unsaid, this guy was quite possibly just a loud barking dog, which turned out being just what he was. Not much unlike his modern day counterparts. lol
The "Commish" ultimately ruined himself, by getting caught dragging a doe out of the woods with his wife's tag attached, after having earlier tagged a buck with his own. Seems as though he had been under suspicion for a long time.
As Jackie Gleason would love to say, "how sweet it is".
I only wished I had kept that Sport program button he had sent me so I could have returned it.
The letters from him although personal, and supporting his own views of unwritten law, were written on official PA Game Commission stationary, and signed by him as a member of that commission. No doubt intended to create the impact on me they originally had.
We should never hesitate to question those having authority.

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I actually had one then, a Lowrance green box portable unit, and i had used it extensively. They were the type he was referring to, and simply were what they were, and arguably still are, a depth finding device.

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Had one of those also. Eventually traded it for a Mossberg 308. After shooting the Mossberg I wanted my fish finder back.

The older i get the less "crap" I carry in the woods. Fill the mag, grab the rifle, grab a day pack with a couple of snacks and drinks and TP a knife a cushion to sit on and I'm good. Now if I'm hunting a shoot house I'll prolly grab a buddy heater too :)

I guess my long winded point was that new things and ideas are quite commonly rejected, and we all do it to one degree or another.
I think my old green box is still around someplace, and it would probably still work, or at least be made to work.
But today for about $100 you can buy a much better one.

I should ask Muddly his opinion on Sunday hunting, and the use of ARs for deer/bear hunting in PA?
Would a Saturday opener for buck as opposed to the traditional Monday, be another way to encourage "new" people to go hunting?
Did legalizing cross bows cause "new" people to start hunting? or did it only cause rifle hunters to take up rifle archery?
I already know the affect it had on many of the existing old archers. lol

Sunday hunting? Public land and by permission on private. AR's? 5 rounds and bigger calibers than .223. Why 5 rounds? I've seen many AR users. Most are nice responsible folk. A lot of the, however, seem to have a hard time abiding by round limits at the various ranges I go to, and come across as wanna be's or mall ninjas.Crossbows. Got me into archery. Rifle archery? sounds like a vertical bow snob( I still deal with folks who think the thing hanging off the barrel of my TC Black Diamonds are tubular magazines. They are rammers btw).Crossbows do pre- date compounds bows by several centuries and regarding its effect in existing archers, perhaps we would all be better off if we stopped thinking if you're not doing it my way you're doing it wrong. A Saturday opener? Fine by me! More bored fidgiters to drive forms! Its all good! <(:

Drive for me... Stoopid fone!

I don't see anything wrong with using an AR for deer as long as it's the correct cartridge. Lately when I go groundhog hunting I'll grab an AR and leave the bolt action at home,at least until the novelty wears off. There's a lot of people in the deer woods that just plain shouldn't be there,no matter what kind of weapon it is!

For the record, ive never shot a bow of "any" type, hunting or otherwise.
But many of my friends, and some in my family have and still and do, and ive never had any problems with it or them because of it.
I do have problems with people who forget when the season ends for them however, and fact is there are many who do.
We could also have a debate as to wether at least "some" Sunday hunting is already taking place.
Wether we are willing to admit it of not, crossbows have in fact created what amounts to an early rifle season, weeks before the main rifle season begins. Many, especially newcomers, couldn't shoot a traditional bow well enough if their own life depended upon it and will readily admit to all of what ive said.

There is little doubt that hunting is rapidly losing popularity as a sport, and i don't think there is much of anything that can be done to revive it. Changing laws in order to try, is simply pandering to various groups. It will survive or it wont based on what it is and has always been. Pa is one of the very few states that dosent permit Sunday hunting. Years ago it was determined that bars could be open on Sundays so long as food was available. I think that now means a bag of chips or a nuked hotdog qualifies as food.
So I guess in view of where we are, why we still prevent somebody from hunting if thats their choice is a valid question/argument.
Ditto with changing the opening day for buck. It wont help as for creating more interest in hunting, but it will allow people to go without taking days off without pay, or using vacation time they would really rather use for other things.
So considering 3 weekends would be involved over the course of the 2 week season, a guy could hunt 5 or 6 days without losing any pay or using vacation days.
Id be willing to bet however that most who are trying to make this happen, are the same group yelling for semi autos, and they wouldnt be happy very long with 5 round magazines either.
So why not just let it all happen? Saturdays and Sundays with ARs legal with unlimited magazines on (those days only), and anything brown goes down.
Might be better to try it out on just the first weekend, and let the Monday opener in affect for the old die hard traditionalists.
Thursday is turkey day and were off work anyway. Friday the hemmi's hummin its way to the big woods. By noon Sunday it's hummin its way back home with our deer. What could possibly be wrong with that picture?
Im only partly joking, as I actually see this could be where its all headed.
In the north central region of the state, where the vast majority of open public hunting land in the entire state is located, at least fifty percent of the private camps are unoccupied during the entire fall hunting seasons. Camps that cost the current owners nothing, in terms of effort and expense to create.
It's getting very close to the point where ours will be there also.

Well,
There are a lot of the people on these shows are more salesman, than sportsman. They make their wages by the stuff they use/advertise.
Not saying they are all salesman, some are very good sportsman.
I usually bark at my kids when they watch some of the shows about how what they are watching is not real world, our world type hunting and fishing.ect, ect.
Now having said that, I have a Burris signature 3x9 on my 110 270 win shooting 140 grain accubonds.
Where would I be without Lyman, Weaver,Redfield, Nosler, ect upgradeing, engineering, newer products ?
Yes technology and today's products seem to be getting out of hand, I agree, but 40 years ago some old boys were sitting at a bar complaining about some whippersnapper and his new fandangaled rifle that can shoot 400 yards and knock a deer over.
Now we are doing it hundreds of miles from each other, taping this new fancy fandangaled flat screen thingy having coffee.
The hunting, or fishing trips you take are for YOU to enjoy and make it what you can. Try not to worry about the other people out there.
I know that is hard to do sometimes, believe me I do, been there, done it, probably be there again sometime.
Relax and enjoy what you are doing.
My hunting and fishing has been more enjoyable since I started to do that.
Good luck

Depends on where you go to ask the questions, or where you were 40/50 years ago when the long range movement started gaining momentum.
The end of WW2 could well mark the beginning in the practicle sence, because of some of the items that became available as surplus.
Things like rifle powder, including slow burning stuff, which is what actually put Hodgden in business by the way, packaging and selling surplus military powder.
Also excellent rangefinders some of which are still being used, along with other very high quality optics like very large binnoculars became available.
There really hasent been much by way of cartridges introduced in the last 40 years that has made much difference for L/R hunters,
as many good ones were already there in wildcat version. With the exception of 338, same goes for bullets. Hornady's 7mm 162 gr match bullet made in 1970 for example had a higher BC than the same ones they make today. I even know some guys still using them for that very reason. lol.
Very little is actually new, it's just that it's new to a whole lot more people, having a whole lot more opinions.
The biggest thing by way of improvements has been rifle scopes. 40 years ago the only scopes you could dial for distance were the target scopes like Unertle and a few others of the same type. And if they weren't properly set up as for mount spacing, you couldn't even use those for dialing. Muzzle brakes would be another improvement in my opinion. Barrels have improved also, and there are far more choices in that area. Needless to say there are far more choices for pretty much everything.
Things like levels and incline indicators on scopes would be (in my opinion), gadgets we can learn not to need.
Same goes for the wind meter devices, not saying they don't work, just that for a hunter, their unnecessary.
I think what has happened is that the term long range has become generalized to include all shooting done at long range, and it cant be. The words (first round cold bore) is a relatively new expression probably first used in military training.
That has also become important in some types of shooting events also. I think thats where and why some of what ive referred to as gadgets has its roots, the implication that first round hits are an absolute requirement.
Fact is it's always easier to find our way to a place weve never been once were been there, and that usually works well for pretty much everything.

I have a whole shop full of crap I don’t need, and an old pickup truck. I’m a hobbyist who enjoys collecting and experimenting with shooting stuff. I don’t pretend it makes me a better hunter. I’m way better at fishing.[emoji1]

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The words (first round cold bore) is a relatively new expression probably first used in military training.

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Absolutely! Was in Nam during the Hathcock years....Carlos stressed that big time. It became part of his rifle zero regimen for trainees....which sadly no one seems to use anymore. Rifle hunters would do well to learn it.

Also sort of amusing to see all the "light rifle" interest too. Guys go out with 10 pounds of gadgets and must have "techno doo dads" strapped to them and then try to get their 338 Lapua Magnum down to 5 pounds.

As far as TV shows go, most people have no clue how those work. They think the network hires/pays a person to do the show and then the network goes out and gets the advertisers to sponsor it to cover the costs and make their money back. In actuality it's the exact opposite. The hunter/host has to film, edit, produce, etc. all the footage and come up with a season's worth of content - or at least enough content to put together a couple sample episodes to convince the network to air his show. If the network likes what they see they will let the hunter/host BUY airtime on their channel for the show to air. The host/hunter is also the one who has to go out and find sponsors for the show as that's where he/she gets the money to pay the network to air it.

Les Johnson did a video covering how this all works on his YouTube channel a year or so back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzAHh3UbbF8

Did not know that.

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Originally Posted by wbm

Absolutely! Was in Nam during the Hathcock years....Carlos stressed that big time. It became part of his rifle zero regimen for trainees....which sadly no one seems to use anymore. Rifle hunters would do well to learn it.

Also sort of amusing to see all the "light rifle" interest too. Guys go out with 10 pounds of gadgets and must have "techno doo dads" strapped to them and then try to get their 338 Lapua Magnum down to 5 pounds.

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I actually don't know any like that, but then my rather small circle of hunting friends all have pretty much the same mindset.
I haven't seen many changes in the basic equipment used other than scope changes or a switch to lazer rangefinders for the most part. Guns don't usually get changed, even for barrels very often since there just used for hunting. Ive never seen anybody with a gadget on their scope. Ive never actually seen a wind meter other than pictures, nor do I know anybody who uses one.
There would be no doubt that I could visit at least 50 other serious long range hunters in other camps within a mile of our own.
I got a call from one just 2 days ago telling me he had just bought a new scope to replace his old Unertle. I had to ask him why, as he had killed another very nice buck just last year at over 800 using the Unertle. Which by the way is also what snipers like Hathcock were using in Vietnam.
Same shooting methods apply to l/r hunting, at least the way most of its done in PA. Things I have seen where there seems to an almost constant search for improvement pertain to shooting rests. Especially ones having the ability to allow the shooter to stay on a running animal. Also the large optics used for finding animals and spotting the shots. Most guys are convinced they have very good ones, but they are also always looking for better ones. We spend almost no time over the coarse of a hunting day or even an entire season actually shooting at game, assuming were lucky.
Yet we spend much of our time looking for something to shoot at.
So whats the most important piece of equipment?
If your thinking a young body, I would at least partially agree. lol

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If your thinking a young body, I would at least partially agree.

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LOL. Oh yeah. For over a decade I hunted Coues and Mule deer in the Chiricahua Mountains of Arizona with only a heavy barrel Ruger 77 in 243, an old Marine Corps haversack, knife and water. Now no matter how light the rifle I couldn't get half way up some of those mountains. No new technology gonna fix that.

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Originally Posted by wbm

LOL. Oh yeah. For over a decade I hunted Coues and Mule deer in the Chiricahua Mountains of Arizona with only a heavy barrel Ruger 77 in 243, an old Marine Corps haversack, knife and water. Now no matter how light the rifle I couldn't get half way up some of those mountains. No new technology gonna fix that.

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Go to the 24 hour campfire website.
Then go to the home page.
Then find the article entitled Big Eyes.
Read and re read the article till what their doing, as well as who is doing it, sinks in.
The article by now could be nearly 10 years old, so the tech data isn't, nor was it ever, as important as the main message.
We did that test using their top 3 picks with a few added, side by side on the same day looking at the same things at long distances.
I have pics of it, but none showing the sweat rolling from the owner of the Swaros. lol