The age old vertical stringing problem

Morning all, I'm kinda hoping somebody has a little 110 specific knowledge and can save me a headache or two in getting my "yard sale gun" tuned. This is a 90's vintage Savage 110, 30-06 that I picked up (yep, at a yard sale) because the previous owner "couldn't get it to group". After finding and fixing a loose front scope mount and small split in the walnut stock near the rear action screw I was consistently getting about 2MOA out of it, which definitely isn't stellar. So I added aluminum pillars front and rear, bedded the action/recoil lug with devcon, and floated the barrel and the tang. Now at 100 yd I'm getting sub MOA groups horizontally, but my three shot groups are stringing vertically at about 1.5 MOA using Factory loaded Nosler Accubond 180's.

I've checked the Scope (an inexpensive Simmons 6x18) for parallax issues and that doesn't appear to be the problem, the trigger break is clean and consistent as well. Before I start searching randomly for other problems I thought I'd ask if anybody knows if there's a "common culprit" for this model rifle? I've heard that the 110 might be finicky about action bolt torque, and I'm wondering about the possibility of adding a barrel post/screw near the front of the stock, but I've never had to do that on my other rifles and I'm not sure if it's the correct remedy for this particular model.

Most of my groups were shot with about 1-2 min between shots and about 5 min between groups by the way.

Thanks all.

You could try placing a small cardboard shim or something similar to the front of the stock and see what happens. I wouldn't encourage anything permanent right away, though. My first guess impression is you've already done everything you ought to do to make it right. Question: when you tighten the action screws, do they turn freely then STOP! like they have hit bottom? They really should. If they don't, it is a good sign you still have some binding issues going on around the action. I have bedded a lot of Savages and normally it takes me a few attempts to get as I described. I just dremel the bedding out a little and try again. Also, I do not use the action screws to hold it together while bedding. I use bolts with the heads cut off (as guides only) and just slide them into the stock, then wrap stock and action with electrical tape where the screws are. Seems to help prevent that little bit of binding I get when I use the screws to pull it together.

If you were using handloads, I'd recommend backing off your charge a little. Someone else may have more/better ideas.

One more thing... My A-bolt '06 needs at least 3 mins to cool between shots. I get horizontal groups that will walk right off the paper otherwise.

I read an article over on accurate shooter about action screw torque settings. I've been using this method to "tune" my rifles. Its very simple and does work. The simple version is torque your front action screw to 30 in lbs and the rear to 20. Shoot 5 shot groups then torque the rear screw 5lbs at a time shooting a group at each setting. Alot of times u will see the vertical shrink. Sometimes you will have to adjust your load to get all the vertical out but give this a shot.

Also if interested in the article I may be able to dig it up for you if you would like.

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Originally Posted by foxx

Question: when you tighten the action screws, do they turn freely then STOP! like they have hit bottom?

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It's not quite like a bolt with a hard shoulder bottoming out on a flat surface, but they don't bind on the way in. and it's obvious when they bottom out. How firm of a stop (STOP!) are you referring to. I've got a relatively high level of faith that the bedding job is good, but I'll re-check it for good measure. I know the action DOES contact the wood stock just below and along the ejection port opening. Since it's tapered right there and didn't seem to be binding I didn't pay it any attention, but maybe I should scrape it for clearance....?

That's a good idea on the cardboard shim. Easy and reversible. I've also heard of people simply dropping a rubber o-ring into the barrel channel before. I wasn't thinking of it when I made the original post though. If I go down that route I'll try something along those lines first.

Zero, a link to that article would be great. Good reading if nothing else.

Does the order that the actions bolts are tightened in matter at all? I've read to do the rear first, but it sounds Zero is recommending front first. I wouldn't expect it to matter much, but....

Also, regarding the bedding at the recoil lug. It should only contact the rear facing surface, right? I had a layer of tape around the outer edge to create clearance when I did the bedding so as to avoid creating torque between the recoil lug and the receiver.

Thanks guys.

The firm, hard STOP! is hard to achieve and I need to be careful not to overstate its feel. Some of mine are better than others, for sure. But you do not want the screw to turn and gradually tighten. Certainly not as much as a 1/4 turn. If you used Devcon 10110, (I do) it is very hard. Ask yourself this: Why would it gradually tighten if it's not binding???? If you are using pillars (I hope) then you know it's not compressing. :)

I have read many accounts that you should tighten front first. I usually insert both screws, start them, stand it up on its butt and tamp it down a little to be sure the back of the lug is against the bedding and then tighten the front, then rear screw. Since being more fussy/ careful with bedding, I have found no improvement playing with different toque amounts. It did help sometimes before then. But it was not a specific amount for every rifle... usually I backed the rear screw out a tad and it worked better. My guess is my action was binding and reducing rear screw torque a bit was a sloppy but effective solution.

If it is bedded, I would not want any wood touching the action anywhere. Relieve that part even if you don't re-bed it.

You did right with the recoil lug. I always tape the sides, bottom and front of the lug. For good extra measure, I remove bedding in front of the lug after it has set. The way I look at it, if it isn't meant to touch the lug, why have it there at all? Ream it outta there with a dremel. I don't know anyone else who dioes this, though. Looks kinda sloppy when you remove the action and look at it. I don't care. :)

I had a similar problem with Savage I put together for a friend. Though our problem was horizontal stringing. I suspected the bedding might be the problem ( My bedding, picture perfect Devcon on factory pillars) I cut 2 small squares of credit card plastic and placed them between the front action screw & magazine and the 2nd piece between the rear action screw & magazine. This lifted the action out of the bedding slightly so only contact was Lug & the two pieces of plastic. The rifle immediately went to shooting bug holes. So I think there's something to be said for FOXX's input. Haven't been able to re-bed yet as my friend won't turn loose of the rifle long enough :)

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/

Here is the link. Its been a year or so but I believe it says to torque the front first. And actually I believe you are also supposed to loosen everything and retorque the front then go up in torque on the rear screw.

Either way this was written by a savage team shooter and does work. You can probably make your own variation of this process and be just fine. The key is consistency. However don't ignore the bedding issues others have pointed out. A correctly bedded action will be affected much less by this process. But this is definetly a good way to squeeze the last little bit of accuracy out especially for those using unbedded stocks and/or factory ammo. U can actually tune your gun to the ammo u are using to an extent anyways. Hope it works for you.

Another thing to consider is your rest set-up and the "mobility" of the rifle when seated in it. My 22-250 will go vertical if I don't put baby powder on the front bag to make it slide nice and if I forget to tighten the locking screw after setting the height I'll get vertical also. If the front bag is loaded too much or too little with filler it can give you fits and a bipod that is skidding and jumping under recoil will certainly do it too. Have you checked any of this stuff? I've found that my "ideal setup" varies a lot by weight balance, stock shape and stock material/finish. If it feels sticky when you try to slide it back and forth you have found part of the problem.

Thanks for all the responses guys. Foxx and gotcha, I'll have the rifle out again tonight and I'll check the bedding very carefully to see how it feels (before and after I scrape the center wood for clearance). I do use Devcon 10110 and turned my own aluminum pillars (Need the practice on my lathe). Rather than giving up and re-bedding, if it shows any signs of binding I'll see if I can identify the trouble spot and scrape it to start with. Maybe I can save myself a little work that way.... But this brings up another question. if the action is that sensitive, I'd still expect weather changes to affect the POI noticeably on walnut(?) stocks even after bedding. I've got rifles that the stock moves up to about .020" at the barrel channel with humidity/temp changes. you're essentially saying that even a .001/002" misalignment can cause problems... How much consistency should I expect even from a bedded wood stock?


Maztech, I can't rule my rest out, but neither would I be inclined to believe that it's the cause. This part is all seat of the pants, but I learned to shoot doing competitive position shooting matches (NRA smallbore stuff) and have a pretty good feel for consistency from shot to shot as a result. I didn't pick anything up that might be causing a problem this time out... Besides, this is the same rest and the same routine I use for everything from my .22's on up through my various hunting rifles with no issue. Still it's worth considering the next time I go out. Thanks for the suggestion.

I would say a bedded and pillared walnut stock will be less perfect than a bedded and pillared laminate stock for the reasons you stated. Perhaps the best stock for long range precision is some sort of quality composite stock that's has an aluminum bedding or something. I don't know if composites are better than laminates, but a solid piece of walnut or maple or anything else is not the best for accuracy. They do look nice, though, and for hunting, that's what I prefer. :) I look for 1/2 MOA from 100-300 yards on all my hunting rifles, and I have never failed to get it or better, regardless of the wood.

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Originally Posted by foxx

I would say a bedded and pillared walnut stock will be less perfect than a bedded and pillared laminate stock for the reasons you stated. Perhaps the best stock for long range precision is some sort of quality composite stock that's has an aluminum bedding or something. I don't know if composites are better than laminates, but a solid piece of walnut or maple or anything else is not the best for accuracy. They do look nice, though, and for hunting, that's what I prefer. :) I look for 1/2 MOA from 100-300 yards on all my hunting rifles, and I have never failed to get it or better, regardless of the wood.

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Thanks foxx. I'm not looking to shoot anywhere beyond about 300 yards with this gun, but MOA is MOA. I'm with you about hunting rifles though. All of mine are solid wood stocks. I've just never seen that much of a difference in POI as the stock moves and your comment about how sensitive the bedding is got me wondering about it.

Have you tried any other bullets? The other day I shot a series of various load workups to fine-tune my target 223; 10 shot groups at 300 yards for FTR. For the fine-tuning a couple of candidates looked great, other ones marginally worse. At the end I tried a "long range" hot load with different bullet and powder. Guess what, vertical string. I don't think it was the load because the charge is on a node, and weighted to 0.1gr. Obviously not the rifle since it just shot well, and generally always has. Don't think it was me; but it was the last string of a long shoot and I would not completely rule that out. Load workup is critical, especially at longer distances, so you may want to try a different ammo too.

Unless you can find a problem with the weapon, vertical will be in the load and horizontal can be corrected with bullet seating. This is with most bullets but sometimes Bergers will not act like other bullets so bear that in mind also.

Thanks for the advice guys. Charlie NC, I've also shot 180 gn and 165 gn Winchester factory loads with worse results than the Noslers.

I did a little work this week, and unless I hear back from a guy who wants to trade an RV for my old VW, I'm going shooting in the morning. I've gone through and scraped down the little bit of wood that might have been contacting the center of the action, found one suspect area in the forearm that might have been close enough to contact if the barrel whips (though I doubt it), lightened smoothed out the trigger just a bit (which I had intended to do eventually anyway) and removed more copper fouling than I expected to find from the barrel. We'll see if one or all of those things make a difference. Fingers crossed.

Welp, took it out this morning and did a little fussing. A few issues with figuring out my scope zero aside, everything looks good now. I'm seeing zero signs of vertical stringing. As a matter of fact my vertical spread is generally tighter than horizontal at this point, and the horizontal spread is probably mostly shooter error (my vertical hold is better than horizontal), but the groups are right at 1moa which is good enough to hunt with. I can fine tune when I replace the optic.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Just a final update, as of this morning, I was able to consistently shoot 1/2" groups at 225 yards with off the shelf ammo (Nosler 180 gn accubonds) with this rifle. Once I get the time to develop a decent hand load for it I expect that I'll be able to improve on that a little bit.... Probably not much though.

Not bad for a cheap second hand gun that I bought at a yard sale!

If the barrel isn't resting on anything and with factory ammo, varied seating depth shouldn't be an issue....
Is the tang safety area free floated or is it binding

Does your shooting technique/mechanics allow straight back recoil?

Usually(when all is correct and one is load testing/developing) vertical stringing is due to powder charge variations and or seating depths. Using factory ammo make me think it is a bedding and or torquing issue.

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Originally Posted by hal9000

Just a final update, as of this morning, I was able to consistently shoot 1/2" groups at 225 yards with off the shelf ammo (Nosler 180 gn accubonds) with this rifle. Once I get the time to develop a decent hand load for it I expect that I'll be able to improve on that a little bit.... Probably not much though.

Not bad for a cheap second hand gun that I bought at a yard sale!

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Congratulations. Even with the simmons scope(like the one I have:) ) ? So, what do you think was the major problem after the bedding, floating etc ? Sounds like the wood that was touching was the last thing fixed.?
I realize this is a little old, but I would really be interested to know what "fixed" it. I'm working on a somewhat similar problem rifle. Thanks, Gary

GWTX I'm interested to know also. Looks like HAL9000 has gone AWOL.