New Savage 11VT .308 need advice

Took the gun to the 100 yard range for the first time today. The gun shoots great but I did have a couple problems.

First the good. Here's a pic of shots 5 - 7 @ 100 yards shooting Hornady 168gr match

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/10/y9yzynu9.jpg

Pretty happy with that.

The first round I ever fired through the gun was a reload that I bought but after the round fired I couldnt open the bolt. I literally had to hammer the bolt open with my hand. After that I never had that problem again shooting the same reloads so I figure just a tight new chamber.

Today when I shot the Hornady match and some federal match grade ammo I found it very hard to close the bolt after chambering a round. I never had that problem with the reloads.

My friend was with me and he also has a new identical 11VT and was shooting the same reloads so I tried chambering a Hornady in his rifle and it is just as hard to close as mine.
I don't know how to describe the extra force necessary but it's a lot. I really have to bear down to get that bolt closed
So we dont fire the round and have just as hard of a time trying to open the bolt and extract the unfired round but we get it out.
Here's a pic .... notice the rub marks near the bullet seat on the bullet on the right ?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/10/6ute9y9y.jpg

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if something is wrong or not and could use some help with this.

Just let me know if I can provide any other info

Thanks

Something is wrong there. You need to have the rifle and ammo checked out !

Looks like the bullet on the right has been shoved into the lands and has been set back. Hard to tell with picture clarity but it looks like that bullet has rifling grooves in it. Pull the bullet, empty the powder and see if the brass will chamber without the bullet. If it chambers ok, at least you can eliminate that. It's hard to imagine a barrel with a bad throat getting through the proof testing portion of QC, but I guess stranger things have happened.

Bullet deep into the lands.

I would say its the ammo, but you could have a short throat too.
To mee it looks like that ammo was loaded for a long throated rifle.
Whatever, dont shoot that ammo any more.

See if you can get a reamer diagram from savage and compare it to where the lands are using a Hornady OAL gage.

In the future if it takes any force beyond normal to close the bolt something is wrong, so stop.
If it take a lot of force to open the bolt after a shot something is wrong, so stop until you figure out what the problem is.

Are the shoulders dented? Or is that the lighting? Because if they (the case) are distorted like that, they wont want to chamber. But like 442 said, pull the pill, and try to chamber the empty case and compare ability to do so. And yes, the one on the right was definitely shoved into the lands.


Snipe

Thanks for taking time to read/reply.

One thing we came across has to do with an issue Savage .308 bolt actions apparently have with chamber throat depth.

Google:

savage 308 throat depth

Lot's of topics with owners reporting problems chambering/unchambering .308 match grade ammo and reporting that throat depth is an issue with a lot of savage .308 bolt actions.

One solution is to shorten OAL of the rounds or have the throat reamed.

I'm not confident this is something savage would warranty and consider out of specs.... I haven't contacted them but I'm a bit leary of sending the gun off for a month only to get it back with nothing changed.

Thoughts?

Hand load it with a more pointy bullet or run less COL.
I used to run the 208 gr amax right at 2.95 or there abouts.

Get a Hornady OAL length gage and the shell for it and measure the lands for which bullet you want to load and load it accordingly, or like you said if you are doing something special then have the barrel throated.

I bought my HH 308 a couple months ago.
I loaded some rounds with once fired cases a friend gave me, and went to the range.
I could not get the bolt down to lock the round in place.


I had No problem with factory rounds.

I pulled some of the bullets and tried to get the cases to chamber in my rifle, no luck.
Talked to a guy that I trust and competes in shooting events, and he said to screw my resizing die down all the way till it touches the shell holder.
It worked, I was thinking that the gun the cases were shot in had a problem but after reading this thread I'm not so sure.

Most of the once fired cases had been fired in a semi- auto , so I'm wondering if that would have anything to do with it.

This is my first bolt gun, and I'm not sure what to expect.
Never had this kind of problem with my semi-autos.

Small base sizing dies are a good idea when reloading rounds used in semi autos intended for bolt rifles.

I'd start from scratch. The reloads are of no use, information wise, as you don't know which exact bullet was used or how it was resized, or even if it was trimmed. Reloading if great as long as the loads are to YOUR spec, for YOUR rifle. Otherwise, they're junk.

Get an OAL gauge and measure your chamber with the bullet you intend to shoot/load.
You can also disassemble a factory round, use that bullet to get your measurement, then compare that measurement to a loaded round. It is possible that your jamming that factory ammo due to a short chamber. It's also quite possible that those reloads weren't properly sized/trimmed.
FWIW....my 11VT has a CBTO of 2.218" with a SMK175, 2.198" with a Hornady 168 match, and a 2.235" measurement with a Nosler 168CC.
My buddy has the exact same rifle, and his measurements are a constant .020 shorter than mine with every different bullet we've tried.

I have a Savage Model 11VT .308 from Dicks , and I can tell you for sure what the problem is, THE THROAT IS SHORT, I have found mine to be the same way. Here is a picture using a Hornday O.A.L tool, the bullet was pushed up against the lands. The caliper is set at 2.800, the bullet is a Sierra 168 MK. The recommended length in the Sierra Load Data is 2.800, you can see how much you would have to jamb it into the lands to close the bolt if the bullet was seated to suggested C.O.A.L. I have checked the head space on mine with gauges, the chamber is ok, it appears the problem is in the throat.

http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/...psaf3b72b0.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle H

I have a Savage Model 11VT from Dicks , and I can tell you for sure what the problem is, THE THROAT IS SHORT, I have found mine to be the same way. Here is a picture using a Hornday O.A.L tool, the bullet was pushed up against the lands. The caliper is set at 2.800, the bullet is a Sierra 168 MK. The recommended length in the Sierra Load Data is 2.800, you can see how much you would have to jamb it into the lands to close the bolt if the bullet was seated to suggested C.O.A.L. I have checked the head space on mine with gauges, the chamber is ok.

http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/...psaf3b72b0.jpg

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What C.O.A.L are you seating to now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by agent88

What C.O.A.L are you seating to now?

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Going to try a few differnet seating depths, see how it does on accuracy and across the chrony, while watching for pressure issues, will get back with result. If I were to seat the bullet just touching the lands the COAL would be 2.752 I believe, will recheck that also and repost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle H

Going to try a few differnet seating depths, see how it does on accuracy and across the chrony, while watching for pressure issues, will get back with result. If I were to seat the bullet just touching the lands the COAL would be 2.752 I believe, will recheck that also and repost.

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Jeez.. thats almost 1/16"...

Yes, now you see why it was giving you fits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle H

Yes, now you see why it was giving you fits.

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So is there any reason why savage would do this or not correct this?

I would think it is a error on there part , I am going to contact them and see.

Ok, talked with Savage, got the responce I expected. And I understand were they are coming from, but they assume it is a customer error until proven otherwise. But anyone with the same issue, Savage would like us to send or rifles to them for testing and if a problem is found, they will fix it. They want you to contact them before sending the rifle in and have the serial number ready when you call them.

Now you do realize if you are a handloader there is a up side to this, you will have a barrel with very long barrel life, before the throat is shot out. You will need to work up a load that is safe to shoot in this chamber, watching for pressure signs as you go, the only other thing you would need to check out is make sure the neck of the brass is not getting pinched in the throat with the throat being short, this could cause high pressure spikes. If you take a piece of fired brass from that gun and a bullet will slide and drop into the brass with no problem, then you most likely wont have a problem with properly trimed brass being to long and getting pinched in the throat.

Thanks for posting.

I do reload for the gun. I'm new to reloading and bench shooting.

Are you sending the gun in?

I'm very happy with the accuracy I'm getting from the gun so I'm not in any hurry to send it in.

I have research to do as I have some questions.

What are pressure signs?

How is a short throat corrected. Does rifling need to be machined out of the barrel to increase throat length? I believe I read that it is not too expensive or complicated to have done locally if you can find a competent smith.

How much can reccomended COAL be shortened?

Can I measure throat depth by loading up dummy rounds or is there an easier way than buying a guage?

ive been loading all sorts of cartridges for over 60 years and never owned any gauges for seating depth except a good set of calipers.
i do have gauges for determining "proper case legnth" for my cases many of which go into custom chambers. they can be purchased reasonably at sinclairs. for now id be using published data for the case legnth. as for seating depth of the bullet just take an empty unprimed case and partially seat a bullet. then close the bolt on it to complete the seating. if you then measure the overall legnth and
set your die to seat it 30 thou deeper you should be fine. check it by smoking the ogive of the bullet with a match or using a sharpie.
rechamber it and check for rifeling marks. you can experiment till you get the accuracy results you like by going more or less deeper
with the seating.
make a dummy for each different bullet you will be using for setting up your die in future.
i wouldnt be using brass fired in another gun unless it was full legnth resized and tried in your chamber before loading.
the heavy bolt lift was caused by pressure. the hard closing was caused by poorly fitted rounds to the chamber which could have
caused both situations.
id be loading some of your own with properly sized brass for that gun. then follow the guidelines of a good loading manual
as for powder charges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by agent88

Can I measure throat depth by loading up dummy rounds or is there an easier way than buying a guage?

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To add to yobuck's suggestion for measuring max length, take a piece of brass that has been fired in your rifle and *do not* resize it. Instead take a pair of pliers and carefully make the case mouth smaller until it will start holding a bullet with some neck tension. Then seat the bullet very long by pushing it in with your fingers, put the dummy round in the receiver and close the bolt. When the bullet hits the lands it will be pushed into the case. Then carefully open the bolt and measure the results.

If you try to do this with a piece of brass that has been either neck sized or full sized you will have a very difficult time closing the bolt since the neck tension is quite high once the brass is resized.

I just cut a slice down each side of the neck with a dremel of a new piece of brass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tammons

I just cut a slice down each side of the neck with a dremel of a new piece of brass.

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I do the same thing only with a sized piece of brass.

There are two likely conditions.

First, the barrel could be headspaced improperly. That's not likely. If the bolt closes easily on an empty unfired properly sized case, your headspace is probably ok. Best to check it with a headspace gauge. If that comes out ok, then move to the next option.

The chamber could be cut with a short throat. This isn't common. BUT, some barrels come out that way. I have a Savage Palma. It has a short throat. It was cut with a Palma 95 reamer. Those throats are shorter than a SAAMI-spec .308 WIN chamber. It will feed factory rounds, sometimes, but it doesn't want to do it. It's really unlikely that a normal production barrel came out with that same throat dimension, but anything is possible.

If the throat is short, you're not going to be able to correct it yourself (without resorting to a do-it-yourself rechambering job).

My best advice would be to send the rifle to Savage. They should be able to help. That is what I would do.

Good luck.