How happy are you with your savage muzzleloader?

I've hunted the last two seasons with an encore 209x50. It's a decent gun and shoots well, but cleaning it is a real pain in the rear. Because cleaning it is a pain, I don't shoot it as much as I probably should. I'm thinking about buying a savage muzzleoader so I won't have nearly the cleaning that I do with the encore. Is this way of thinking correct?

If I buy the savage what types of groups will I be able to get out to 200 yards? 200 yards is about the max shot I'll have for firearms season.

The encore is fine for what it is, but I'm a savage guy and I'd like to be talked into a new muzzleloader.

Cleaning goes away, cost per shot drops, accuracy goes up, and you can see where you are shooting-- all good things. No hinged-pin hammer gun can compare with the fast lock-time AccuTrigger / Savage short-action, nor can hammer-gun triggers.

1.5 in @ 100 yards is promised by Savage out of the box; 1-5/8 @ 250 yards is the best I've been able to get which is more accuracy than can really be used in the field.

Jim Baker has shot some 1/4 in. groups @ 100 yards with his with iron sights, but he ain't right. :-\

I have both the Savage with a laminate stock and the Encore.If you shoot BH209 in the Encore clean up is the same as the Savage,but cost per shot goes up.My Encore,1"groups@100 and 2.5"@200 yards, will shoot better than my stock Savage and this is after sending it back to Savage for barrel replacement because the first barrel would not keep a 3" group at 100 yards.With the replacement barrel it would shoot 2-2.5" group just not consistantly,sometimes it would be a 1" group nest group would be 5" @100 yards.I tried N110,N120,5744,4198 and 322 powder along with 200 SST,250 SST,300BO,300 Rem,250 MZ,300MZ and 260 DC bullets with MMP short,MMP24,MMP 12 and MMP orange,Havester Red and Black Crushed Rib and Havester short black sabots.My Savage is getting it's barrel(tomato stake) replaced with a custom PacNor 45 barrel.

153, your post is confusing-- as you also posted this:

Thanks Randy and everyone else on this forum for all the help with questions about the SavageML.Killed four deer this year with the Savage,300 XTP's and 42 gr of N110,unable to get N120 in time for hunting season.One in tracks(shoulder shot), the other three went max 30 yards,all three double-lunged behind shoulder.The shoulder shots will put deer down in there tracks as I tried with the 243 and 12 slugs these same shoulder shots when the shots where there.I think shot placement far out weights anything as far as killing a deer on the spot.I finally got the Savage dailed in where I could group three shots in 1.5" at 100 yards with the 300 XTP's,my problem had been not waiting for the barrel to cool between shots.This off-season I will try the 275 XBP with the N120 and 5744 to try and get a little more range,but if I can not get 1.5" or less I know the 300XTP's will do the job.I did recover one of the 300 XTP's from a 125 lb doe shot at 50 yards quartering away,went in about third rib and under oppisite side shoulder skin .Doe went about 30 yards with good blood trail,the 300 XTP mushroomed perfectly to .95 inch,weight 223 grains.I hunt about half the time in Virginia where it is shotgun or ML only,no centerfire rifles and the Savage is the gun over there.Shotgun with sabot slugs kicks like a mule,very expensive($3-$4 a shot) with limited range(125 Yards) and no where near the accuracy of the Savage ML.The best part about the Savage is I did not clean at anytime during the season,from Nov. 3 -Jan. 5.I would shoot a group every two weeks to make sure I still sighted in correctly and never had to touch to Scope all season,had installed Warne QR rings with Warne bases.Scope was a 3 x 9 x 40mm Kahles.I think the fit and finish on the ML10 could be better but everything else gets an A+.

Things must have changed? ::)

That right Randy it would shoot 1.5" groups with 300XTP's just not consistently.That why it was sent back to Savage for a new barrel.When I got to a range where I could shoot 200 yards my Encore would shoot much better groups.I would still hunt with the stock Savage over a Shotgun Slug Gun and being able to see after the shot is a big plus.I have spoke with many people about the Savage and it seems to be 50/50 if you get a gun that shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards consistently.I glad for those who got the good shooting guns.I also had my gun 3rd action screw,3 new pillars,bed pillars,receiver and 2' forward of recoil lug by Bill Ball.It shot better after Bills work but still not up to par for me.I also tried three different scopes,two Leupolds and a Busnell 4200.I am glad all your Savages shoot great but mine would not.I wish it would have shoot the 300 XTP's good at 200 yards as this is the best Muzzle Loader bullet for deer I have shot.

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Originally Posted by 153

If you shoot BH209 in the Encore clean up is the same as the Savage,but cost per shot goes up.

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I've never used the blackhorn powder, but I've been hearing good things. They only make it in a loose powder don't they? I like the ease of using pellets, but if it means I don't have to clean up as much I could switch over to regular powder.

Yes, Blackhorn 209 is the best "bp sub" ever made.

A lot of people are surprised at the seemingly effortless, excellent (if not astounding) results so many people get out of their Savage 10ML-II's-- and seem to have troubles.

Hot barrels is the #1 cause. Savage loads do produce more heat than old blackpowder loads. If you can feel heat on your barrel, the sabot you seat is going to be afflicted by a lot more on the inside of the barrel and quickly soften and weaken. A snug fitting sabot and a cool barrel-- and that takes care of it in many cases.

It is particularly an issue in warm weather (like today - - - 87 degrees) and target shooting. Not relevant to big game hunting, if you load and shoot, load and shoot it is esy enough to put two bullets through the same hole. . . and have the third one 4, 5, 6 inches away. I've done that more times than I can count.

A cold barrel solves most of it.

I have a HB LTD 50 cal that will shoot sub moa at 100 yds with 43 gr. of N110 and 250SST or 275gr parker BE. I also have a custom 45 cal Pacnor Savage ML-II built by Rick Bibby that will also shoot sub moa with 62 gr. of 2015 and 200gr. SST or 195gr. Barnes. I haven't shot much beyond 100yds. but feel that either would do pretty well. As for the Encore I've owned two and all I can say is..... been there done that and AIN'T goin back.

Yes, DW-- I know the feeling. Regardless of brand, you'll find plenty of people that aren't 100% happy 100% of the time if that's what you are looking for.

Savage's track record has been outstanding, though, and their customer service continues to impress. They've always been happy to spend the time and money necessary to make things right if given the chance.

Fundamentally, a bolt action and a one-piece stock is a great, established platform for accuracy. Maybe that's why hinge-pin hammer guns don't go to Camp Perry? I really do think that most "problems" can be traced to soft, loose-fitting, or inappropiate sabots. It takes a little more attention to the sabots with smokeless. Just human nature, we often don't reduce loads by 10 - 15% and work up-- we ask what the "MAX" is, and then go higher. Doesn't work well with handloading, which is what muzzleloading is.

It was a Savage 10ML-II factory barrel that was used for the vast majority of load development in the process of launching Blackhorn 209. If you aren't getting good results w/ smokeless, a trip to the range using Blackhorn 209 in a 10ML-II has quickly proven to a lot of people that it sure isn't the gun, it is the load combination being used.

i just started shooting 200yd with 250xtp 46gr5744 rcr sabot 1.5 in group 3 shots and then a 4th that i picked it up and put in bull the other 3 were 2 inches low i get .75 to a 1 inch at 100 lots of encore shooters at my range ask were to get one as with buck horn you still have to clean it still will rust fairly quick. not like smokeless but a lot better then the rest still smoke. go with the savage you wont regret it just take the advice from RW and others that know plus there less money up front and to shoot. kevin

I'm happy with mine. With no real load testing at all I used 2 loads recomended on Randys website and both are satisfactory and inexpensive to shoot. Both shoot to about an 1-1/2" at 100 yards with a 3x9 scope and thats all I need for my purposes.

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Originally Posted by RandyWakeman

Jim Baker has shot some 1/4 in. groups @ 100 yards with his with iron sights, but he ain't right. :-\

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Hey now, I resemble that remark! :D

The gun's boring ;D No swabbing between shots, cracking the breechplug every 5 shots or so while shooting Triple Se7en, none of that silliness. I shoot out to 300yds just to amuse myself. 2"groups @ 200yds, mostly due to shooter inadequacies. I actually had no qualms with my old customized laminate thumbhole Encore. I just couldn't afford to feed two babies. :-\

I was a blackpowder junkie for along time,and killed a few,(well OK alot) of deer with the old smokepole. I took out my new Savage 10MLSS last deer season, and smoked two deer with clean pass through shots. One on the run at 40 yards. I average 1.5 to 2 at 100yds,and I am sure she will shoot better. I am convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that the Savage 10ML is the most accurate, efficient muzzleloader on the market. And yes. I ain't never going back. Hornady 250gr XTP , 5744-45gr

I have the Thumbhole SS Savage, and an Encore. I am selling my Encore.
Comparing these two rifles is apples and oranges. The Savage is superior in every respect.
The only complaints I ever found in the Savage were the rifleings were rough out of the box, and a little time with some polish and a bore cloth was a quick remedy. I also did not care for the accu-trigger, as it was difficult to get my small hands completely square with the trigger, leading to several trigger pulls with no bang. A competition trigger was a quick remedy for that problem also.

The accuracy at any range is better than any other muzzle loader I have ever owned.
I will add that if a barrel puts a 1" group together, at any time, then there is nothing wrong with the rifle. The point of impact will not change unless something changes in the shooter, loading, or sights.

When I go to the range I always allow about 20 minutes between shots, and if I do my part as far as loading, and shooting, then the rifle will shoot in the same spot every time. If I hurry the shots, I will get a spread after the 3rd shot, due to overheating the sabot.

I can shoot 10 or 12 shots in a day at the range, and my rifle will shoot 1" groups all day, and when I get home it is a simple clean up in about 5 minutes.

I shoot MMP sabots with Hornady 250 grain and Vit#110 at 42 grains with a CCI primer with a Nikon 4X14 scope with A/O.

Won't be going back to any kind of smoke type powder, Blackhorn or otherwise.

I got out my encore the other night and looked it over. It's nasty inside and all over. I had cleaned the heck out of it after the last trip to the range, but it still got crud in some places. I bought some blackhorn today just to try out. If the blackhorn doesn't work I'll likely sell my 209x50 setup before next season and buy a savage. I just hate having a dirty gun.

I went through the Encore phase and had a lot of fun with them. Loved the switch barrel concept and I didn't know about the Savage. Brought home many deer and 1 elk with the Encore 209x50 muzzleloader. I bedded them, used forend hangers, Bellm oversized pin, trigger springs and trigger jobs to squeeze out sub MOA accuracy. Felt confident taking deer out to 200 yards with Triple 7 and 250 gr TC Shockwaves.

Several years ago I bought my first Savage rifle and then a Savage 10ML. Sold all of my Encores except the one I gave my son as his first rifle. As already mentioned, the Savage and smokeless powder are superior in all aspects. I did like the smoke. Savage accuracy and performance out to 300 yd is limited only by the shooters abilities. I don't miss trying to get that Encore muzzleloader clean, even when using Triple 7. Barrel heat will destroy accuracy in both the Encore and Savage and make you crazy while trying to develop new loads should you ignore the advice to let the barrel cool completely. I just bought my son a used 209x50 barrel for his Encore. Only reason is because he's a lefty and likes his Encore. Plus all the good things I've read about the new Blackhorn 209 powder. Otherwise, my advice would be to get a Savage 10ML-II, work up a 300 yard load with Barnes Original Bullet and tight fitting sabot. And don't look back, cause you ain't missing much by passing on black powder and its substitutes.

I always told myself that I'd never sell a gun that I've taken game with. I don't mind getting rid of guns that are range toys, but the guns that have a story to them have to be kept for the next generation. That's why I can't just flat out sell my encore because I took my first deer with the 30-06 barrel. That setup has to stay, but the 209x50 will get dropped like a toilet seat if the Blackhorn 209x50 doesn't make life easier. Selling the 209x50 setup should get me close enough to a 10ML that it shouldn't be a painful purchase.

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Originally Posted by teddy12b

I always told myself that I'd never sell a gun that I've taken game with. I don't mind getting rid of guns that are range toys, but the guns that have a story to them have to be kept for the next generation. That's why I can't just flat out sell my encore because I took my first deer with the 30-06 barrel. That setup has to stay, but the 209x50 will get dropped like a toilet seat if the Blackhorn 209x50 doesn't make life easier. Selling the 209x50 setup should get me close enough to a 10ML that it shouldn't be a painful purchase.

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My first deer with a muzzleloader was from an Encore. I loved that gun, but clearly the Savage is superior. The accutrigger, less recoil, better performance and safety, and accuracy made the Savage a no-brainer. T/C Encore's are very good muzzies, but Savages are just that much better ;)

I am very pleased with mine but it took a while to get there. I started with mine using Wal-mart bullets and sabots. Couldn't get them down the barrel, no ignition. Got that fixed with MMP black sabots. Tried several locally available bullets. Couldn't get it to stay on paper at 100 yards with power points nor barnes spit fire TMZ's. Then went to 250 gr XTP's with 44 gr of 5744 and accuracy and consistency was there. That combo worked great in my gun. The 300gr and N 120 also worked well.

As to the gun itself, Right out of the box it was a bit rough. Most "right out of the box" guns are. This one was a bit more than usual. After 4 years of use the rough has been mostly polished by use. Plastic stock seems a bit stamped out. The trigger is excellent. I like the position of the safety. It is right where you need it. It is great not to have to clean it after every range session. You MUST(at least on my rifle) clean out the breach plug after 15-30 rounds or it gets full of carbon. This can affect accuracy. A drill bit (5/32) is the right size. It is pretty quick and easy to do with the breach plug out for cleaning the rifle. Usually I clean it before and after the season or if I have a particularly long range session. My gun is a SS/S. I have had it out in several frog stranglers. I did wipe it down on returning to camp, however the trigger guard corroded to a surprising amount. Slight amount of tinged rust on the outside of the barrel. It will get a coat of paint after this hunting season.

It may seem like I am giving lots of negative on this rifle. I am picky. I am used to custom and semi custom rifles that are just that. Custom. Overall this is the best ML rifle I have used. Once dialed in it is as accurate as I could ask for. I will not be buying another ML rifle. This is the one. "D"

After purchasing my Savage I tried several different loads. Some factory recommended loads, some not so recommended. The first coupe of times at the shooting bench had me wondering if I had made a good purchase or not. Then I started taking everyones advice and letting it cool. I only let mine cool a few minutes after every 2nd shot. I have found a load that my gun shoots extremely well. It is consistently shooting 0.5 - 0.75 groups at 100yrd. The last trip to the local shooting range I was busting water filled 2ltr and milk jugs out to 300yrds. I have shot about 3lbs of powder through my Savage and have only cleaned it 6 times. Try that with Triple 7 or any other substitute. There is no comparison on the price per shot. Pellets are very expensive per shot. It is actually cheaper for me to shoot my 300 Win Mag than you can shoot a standard muzzleloader. I cant wait to shoot a deer with this gun to see the on game performance. I know it is hell on a milk jug. I highly recommend the Savage. All things considered, there is NO COMPARISON. ;D

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Originally Posted by RandyWakeman

Cleaning goes away, cost per shot drops, accuracy goes up, and you can see where you are shooting-- all good things. No hinged-pin hammer gun can compare with the fast lock-time AccuTrigger / Savage short-action, nor can hammer-gun triggers.

1.5 in @ 100 yards is promised by Savage out of the box; 1-5/8 @ 250 yards is the best I've been able to get which is more accuracy than can really be used in the field.

Jim Baker has shot some 1/4 in. groups @ 100 yards with his with iron sights, but he ain't right. :-\

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the 50cal bullet is biger than 1 forth of an inch

That is center to center of the holes.

Hello everyone. FYI Savage has stopped production of the ML'erII, No longer being made. Why? So if you have your heart set on getting one you had better do a quick search as the are becoming scarse. One of the best ML'ers I ever had wouldn't sell mine for boo coo bucks Lou

http://randywakeman.com/Savage_Cease...Production.htm