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do I need these? I just ordered a 12BR in 6mmbr. Lapua brass will be ordered. With my 12LRPV in 223 all I ever do is neck size. Are the chambers for 6mmbr more critical or will I be able to just neck size my new 6mmbr brass. I do have a neck turning set from Sinclair and will probably go over all the new brass first after trimming all to equalize.
You don't need a bushing die. 6BR is no different than anything else.
Just FYI, I have a savage 6BR and the chamber is not the same as the match chambers on custom rifles. Its much larger and I couldn't run the high pressures that I can now get away with in my shilen prefit barrel.
will I be able to just use a neck sizer? I'll only the using the brass shot in my rifle.
Neck sizing will only cause more problems down the road. Full length re-size every time and it will shoot more consistent from firing to firing. I don't know of any competitive shooters that neck size only, and there is a reason for it.
I'll second that. I tried neck sizing but gave up on it quickly. I get much better results full length sizing.
If you neck size, you will have to bump the shoulder back after 3 or 5 firings. otherwise it will get really hard to chamber because the 30 degree shoulder is steeper than what you would see on standard rifle cartridges. The steeper the shoulder, the less able to "wedge" into the chamber and the more critical headspace gets.
thanks for the help. so I guess the reason I'm not having a problem neck sizing with a 223 is the more gradual shoulder angle.
I am going to share one of my experiences for what its worth.
When I started reloading, I had wondered about the same thing. FL size every time or Neck Size. So in my 12FV 22-250, I took some 1x's fired brass (all the same lot and fired in my gun) and sized 10 in my FL Die and 10 in my Neck Die (Lee Collet Die). I loaded all 20 from the same flat of primers, same jug of powder, bullets from the same box, all trimmed to the exact same length, and the exact same die settings all loaded in one loading session. I set up two targets at 300 meters side by side. I had my buddy spot for me to make sure I didn't cross fire. I fired 2 5 shots groups of each style. I alternated FL and NK meaning I fired one of FL and then one of NK shooting FL at the left target and NK at the right. Gave 2 min cool down between each shot. I did this to try and remove any differences in barrel condition/cleanliness and be as fair as possible. The NK rounds made 1.25" groups, the FL rounds made 3.5" groups.
I also tried this same test on my 308 and tried it with my 243AI (only difference here was to FL size I used a Lee Collet Die on the Neck and a Redding Body Die on the shoulder and body because I do no own a 243AI FL Die). Similar results with both of these also. I will say that with my 243AI, I have a box of 50 brass that I continuously use and are past their 25th firing and still only being neck sized, they are still shooting the same group size now and they did after fire forming.
Fred (sharpshooter) (whose word I take as gospel) is right, and if it didn't add something, competition shooters wouldn't do it, but for my purposes I just don't see the benifit when FL sizing opens up my groups when all other factors are kept the same.
I say, set aside 10 brass when you are practicing and only Neck size those and FL the rest as the guys are suggesting and just see what your gun does.
To FL or NS is something you can as, bootsmcguire says, experiment with, and see what works in your rifle. I have used the Lee collet die in my 308 and had good results. But I FL for my 6 dasher in Forster honed dies and have excellent results. I have tried a few bushing dies and have had no luck with them at all. I always end up with more runout when I tried them. Others like them and say they have no problems. I guess its something that everybody has to try for themselves. Best of luck. Luckus
I got a lot of runout on my 308 using Redding bushing dies. None on my 223. I measured and found that the 308 was sizing down nearly .004. I switched to a larger bushing (.002 larger) and added another sizing step. Then sized with the original bushing. Runout went down to .001-.0015 with the two-step process. I still prefer the Lee Collet die to the bushing dies.
My "experiences."
For my Savage Carbine, 1-9 twist I load a 68gr. Hornady over Varget powder. (Not that the powder matters, nor the bullet) But I have tried the Lee Collet die and it would be a better tool holding up one leg of a bad shooting bench. What I do use is the Lee F\L sizer die without the sizer button. Instead I just have a Lee universal de-cap pin so nothing is sizing the inside neck. I have the die adjusted so the shoulder is bumped about 2-Tho back of the chamber. I get 99% of my loads with under 1-Tho concentricity, and great groups.
For my Savage 6.5 Swede, toss out the Lee Collet & the Lee F\S or any Lee product at all. I use the RCBS Comp. neck bushing neck sizer and the Comp seating die. I get 98% of my loads with under 1-Thou of concentricity and great accuracy. Well.....I'm testing a few different depths and bushing sizes right now and will post the results....but they have the Lee Die loads beat right now, and i've not got it "wired" yet. (Oh....when the shoulder needs a bump, I have (it's either the Forester or RCBS...Can't recall off the top of my head...but only one of 'em makes it) the "Body Die." This die simply sizes just what it says. It will size the shoulder, and from there down. It will not touch the neck, nor decap any primer.
So....if that doesn't mess with ya.....eh? Actually, I believe the little .223 is an easier cartridge to load and make concentric. I think when you get to the bigger bottleneck cartridges, then you need to have more exacting equipment to load more concentric cartridges.
FWIW
Dave
Yep, the (Redding) body die is nice for shoulder setback. If you have a Redding FLS bushing die, all that you have to do is remove the bushing and you have a body die.
The Lee collet die works great for me. 223, 223AI, 243, 243AI, 6mmBR, and 308. Rockchucker press. Slight cam over.
for me it depends on the round my 308/223 i use rcbs gold box dies both fl and nk are bushing dies i shoot 2 different case in my f class gun lapua and mornady match and have to swap bushings out depending on type of brass. as for runn out i started neck turn my formed creedmoor brass and have found runout is almost nill now. i'm going to start neck turning all my brass to just clean it up for more consistany (sp) i also anneal every 4-5 firings .for neck sizing extends the case life i'm still shooting the same brass i bought 3 yrs ago has to be 25+ loading on them .
As some of you know, from a previous post, I'm doing a project which compares concentricity between the Lee Collet Die, conventional FL sizing dies, and bushing dies; the results of which I'll post in this forum.
I'm still early into it, but, here's my findings, so far:
1. Checking case neck run out, after resizing; every case is under +/- .001" with both the Collet die and conventional FL sizing die. My batch sizes are 10 cases each. I haven't yet recorded any data with my bushing dies, coming soon.
2. When checking the final, loaded, rounds, the Lee Collet die gives decidedly better results with all cases under +/- .002". Most are .001" or .0015". The FL die run out is worse, with the loaded rounds having lots of .002's and .003's; a few worse than that.
3. Another data point, which may or may not be related is Lee Collet die doesn't squish the neck down as much as the FL die. When checking neck diameter, after resizing, the Collet-sized neck diameters are .001-.002" larger. When seating 30 cal bullets, I can feel the difference during seating.
That's all I think I know, for now. More to come.....
I'm the OP. I ended up ordering a Forster Bump die with the same three bushings that they sell with their kit. I couldn't find anyone who had the kit so I had to order everything separate. The Bump die does what it sounds like, neck size the case using bushings and bump the shoulder only.