The right Bullet for .308 Criterion barrel

Hey everyone. I'm new to the forum and want to first off say "thanks" for letting me join up. I've been a shooter for 40 plus years (telling my age) and currently shoot a lot of 3 gun and IDPA however have started shooting some long range matches with my recently purchased .308 and am needing some direction for reloading.

My rifle is a Savage action with a 24" bull Criterion barrel set in a Manners stock. The barrel has a 1:10 twist and I've tried several different bullets and am seeing pretty average groups (.8-1 inch range with 1" being the norm) with everything I've shot. I'm currently using SMK 175s seated .02 off the lands with 44.3gr Varget and CCI BR2s and Lapua brass. I've tried 178 gr. Hornady Amax and Nosler 168 gr competion bullets with about identical results. I'm going to be using the rifle on some long range matches with ranges starting at 300yds and going out to 1400 yds so I'd like to see some tighter groups if at all possible. My question is...has anyone here had better results with these barrels shooting heavier bullets, such as Berger 185s, or maybe lighter bullets, such as SMK 155 Palmas? The twist should shoot these 175s better than the light bullets I would think but just not seeing what I had hoped with the 175 SMKS. Hate to keep buying different bullets trying to find that "just right bullet". Hoping someone here can shed some light. Thanks.

I am shooting the 175 SMK's out of my Remington 700 with the 1 in 10 twist barrel...I have gotten some
pretty good results out to 250 in the F class matchs here..I have found that Reloader 15 is the best
powder in my rifle and I am using Federal Mag.primers and Winchester brass.The bullets jump into
the lands..My charge weight is 43.0 grains..In some manuals that is listed as over max...
I wouls continue to use it for the shoots but it only has a sporter weight barrel and gets very hot in
short order..Maybe this winter I will have it rebarrel with a bull barrel....

And like yourself I would like to shoot the 155 Lapua's but they will not shot accurate with the twist..
My thought on it is to stick with the heavy bullets for better performance in the wind..Good luck
with your shooting..John

Twist only tells what the barrel can stabilize, not what bullets it will shoot best.

http://imageshack.us/a/img37/1791/img0015ke.jpg

That is a 5-shot group of 168gn SMKs fired from a 1:10 barrel. It was the best group of the day for sure, but the worst was still under 3/4 MOA. That barrel does not shoot 175 SMKs as well. It shoots 155gn Custom Comps better than the 175 SMKs, in fact holding just over .5 MOA @ 300yds.

If your rifle is not shooting a bullet well, it's either because the barrel "doesn't like that bullet" or you haven't found a load combination that it does like with that bullet. Barrel rate of twist isn't the issue. If you're assuming that the rifle won't shoot well with the 155gn bullets because of the twist...well you know what they say about assuming. I don't have my "definitive" reference handy, but if IIRC the Lapua 155gn Scenar is longer than the 168 SMK. Since bullet length, not weight, is what determines required rate of twist for stability, the idea that a (relatively) fast twist barrel would not shoot the longer bullet as accurately doesn't stand up to basic sanity, if rate of twist were the issue, like you assume...which it isn't.

Yep, you're right. It's the faster twist likes the longer bullets, not heavier. Thanks.
I can't go too long because of magazine length. Wish I could buy a dozen bullets instead of a whole box.

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Originally Posted by helotaxi

Twist only tells what the barrel can stabilize, not what bullets it will shoot best.

http://imageshack.us/a/img37/1791/img0015ke.jpg

That is a 5-shot group of 168gn SMKs fired from a 1:10 barrel. It was the best group of the day for sure, but the worst was still under 3/4 MOA. That barrel does not shoot 175 SMKs as well. It shoots 155gn Custom Comps better than the 175 SMKs, in fact holding just over .5 MOA @ 300yds.

If your rifle is not shooting a bullet well, it's either because the barrel "doesn't like that bullet" or you haven't found a load combination that it does like with that bullet. Barrel rate of twist isn't the issue. If you're assuming that the rifle won't shoot well with the 155gn bullets because of the twist...well you know what they say about assuming. I don't have my "definitive" reference handy, but if IIRC the Lapua 155gn Scenar is longer than the 168 SMK. Since bullet length, not weight, is what determines required rate of twist for stability, the idea that a (relatively) fast twist barrel would not shoot the longer bullet as accurately doesn't stand up to basic sanity, if rate of twist were the issue, like you assume...which it isn't.

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Guess I will never get it then..I tried Hornady 168 gr. match bullets in this barrel,with no luck at all..I think the best was like 1 1/4 at 100 yrd....I tried several powders and different oal.as well...It just would not shoot with any more accuracy..I guess that is why I have trouble when people like you say the twist makes no difference..I know some rifle's just seem to like every load combo available..
But like I said,it just does not work for me..Now maybe that is the issue,the length of the bullet its self..I have never tried the 155 lapua's...I just hate to buy a box and not have them work..It would be outstanding if they did though....John

Ditto on the SMK. My 10 BA is around .5 MOA at 400 yards on a good day using either Black Hills 168 or 175g SMK.

Hornady for some reason have not been as good as BHA in my rifle.

Twist is one of those things that cause a rifle to shoot well with one bullet and not so well with another. I'm with you, acemisser, I hate to buy another box of bullets only to see that I'm no better off than my 175 SMKs that cost $10-!5 more than SMKs. But helotaxi is right in that the faster twist like longer bullets...usually. I shot black powder for years and usually you used a 1:66 barrel for round ball and a 1:24 or so for conical and sabots. I guess the real answer to my question, which is which bullet will shoot better, can only be answered by buying more bullets and working up more loads. Oh well, it's fun to play anyway. Just getting a little expensive.

Thanks to all the replies.

Twist only stabilizes a bullet, it doesn't dictate accuracy. Now the argument can be stated that if a bullet is not not stable then it cannot be accurate. That is true but we are past that here. Just because a rifle has a fast twist does NOT mean it will shoot heavy bullets accurately. It just means they will make round holes in the targets when they hit instead of key-holing.

I have a RRA in .223 with 1:8 twist. It will stabilize 75 grain Amaxes all day but will shoot them into a 1.5" group. On the other hand it will put 5, 52 grain NBTs into less than .5"

The barrel will tell you what it likes, not the twist rate and some barrels are picky and takes some work to find the sweet spot.

Having shot the 175 Sierra in both M1A and bolt guns I would opt for a powder other than Varget. I know lot's of shooters have had great success with Varget but I never got it to shoot better than some other powders in the .308. Personally I would work with IMR4064 with the 175 match king. The latest military ammunition for long range, M118LR, uses 41.7g of IMR4064 with the 175g SMK. I would start there.

all well and good for some barrels...I do not agree with some of the stuff written..I have to prove it to myself..

I had one fellow tell me he was shooting 110 gr. bullets in a 1 in 10 twist with great accuracy....come to find out
he was talking about hitting a pie plate at 100 yards..lol Anyway,I guess I am gonna have to order a box of the
155 lapua and find out for myself..I appreciate all the comments and replies...John

For what its worth Lupua reccomends a 1 in 12 for their 1555 grain match bullets....So i'm staying with the 175 SMK or a bit heavier.....Honest Ingiun...

My CBI 30" 1-11 loves Berger 185 BTTLR (30418) bullets with either Varget or RL-17. Defiantly shoots tighter with these than my Sierra 175 Match Kings

Try 43 grains of RL 15 with 175s. 155 Sierra Palmas shot well out of my barrel also.

Do not seat bullets .02 from the lands. That's too close, and tolerances being imperfect, you will likely get some rounds touching and some rounds off the lands. Set back 0.010" and try again. Also, no matter what kind of stock you have, it may need to be bedded. I have the McMillan 10FP, and it shot right at 0.9" for 5 shot groups until it was bedded; then it shot 0.38" with the same ammo. Depending on what makes contact, if there are aluminum bedding blocks in your stock, you can use J-B Weld to put some on each block, of course with release agent. Too much diddling with various bullets will make you crazy! The SMK will do fine; Noslers ditto; Bergers jump just fine (I've shot under 0.3" with Bergers jumping 0.25"). Also, break-ins vary, and if you do these things, and don't get under 0.5", get the Tubb Fire-lapping system, called Final Finish.
Jim

!55 smk's pushed by 42.6 gr. IMR 4895 out of a 1:10 cbi 26" after playing a little with the seating and settling at 0.018 off the lands gave me .335 5 shot groups at 100 and opened up to.645at 200.
You will only find out after you try.

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Originally Posted by jim_k

Do not seat bullets .02 from the lands. That's too close, and tolerances being imperfect, you will likely get some rounds touching and some rounds off the lands. Set back 0.010" and try again. Also, no matter what kind of stock you have, it may need to be bedded. I have the McMillan 10FP, and it shot right at 0.9" for 5 shot groups until it was bedded; then it shot 0.38" with the same ammo. Depending on what makes contact, if there are aluminum bedding blocks in your stock, you can use J-B Weld to put some on each block, of course with release agent. Too much diddling with various bullets will make you crazy! The SMK will do fine; Noslers ditto; Bergers jump just fine (I've shot under 0.3" with Bergers jumping 0.25"). Also, break-ins vary, and if you do these things, and don't get under 0.5", get the Tubb Fire-lapping system, called Final Finish.
Jim

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Im not sure what to think about this. Dont seat them .020 off the lands because some will touch and some will be off. Last time I checked if they are .020 off the lands then they are not touching the lands they are .020 off the lands. Im thinking that they are not .040 off the lands because they are .020 off the lands.You may be much more knowledgeable than I but that statement does not have reason to me unless you are not aware that COAL and the ogive are different distances or possibly we are not experienced enough to know this. Im not looking for an arguement but many people put bergers in the lands on a stadard chamber with great results.
I am but a 580 F/TR shooter doing it with 155's CC's in a CBI 10T 28". Almost everyone that beats me has a berger.... in the lands.

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Originally Posted by jim_k

Do not seat bullets .02 from the lands. That's too close, and tolerances being imperfect, you will likely get some rounds touching and some rounds off the lands. Set back 0.010" and try again.
Jim

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while were at it, my poor learning shows .010 is closer then .020 or are you now wanting .030? another confused person.

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Im not sure what to think about this. Dont seat them .020 off the lands because some will touch and some will be off. Last time I checked if they are .020 off the lands then they are not touching the lands they are .020 off the lands. Im thinking that they are not .040 off the lands because they are .020 off the lands.You may be much more knowledgeable than I but that statement does not have reason to me unless you are not aware that COAL and the ogive are different distances or possibly we are not experienced enough to know this. Im not looking for an arguement but many people put bergers in the lands on a stadard chamber with great results.
I am but a 580 F/TR shooter doing it with 155's CC's in a CBI 10T 28". Almost everyone that beats me has a berger.... in the lands.

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You are right about the seating depth. I misinterpreted 0.02" as 0.002", and you should not seat "barely off" the lands, for the reason I stated. Either shorter OAL or into the lands. I agree that [U]usually[U] the rifle will shoot better jammed into the lands, and I don't think there's anywhere near the "high-pressure" risk that people typically caution about. I have quit seating into the lands, since my aiming error is always more than any advantage I could see on the target.
Thanks for correcting my error. Those Berger-shootin' F/TR folks also obsess about bullet pointers and meplat uniformity, and I don't blame you if you don't do those things.
Jim

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Originally Posted by jim_k

Those Berger-shootin' F/TR folks also obsess about bullet pointers and meplat uniformity, and I don't blame you if you don't do those things.
Jim

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He he...obsession is relative!

I'm actually seating bullets using the ogive as a measurement, instead of the COL. Bullet tips are not very uniform so COLs aren't all that meaningful, except considering length of magazine. I'm shooting long distances and would prefer the 175s over the 155s however I think my next bullet will be the Berger 185s BTTLRs because of the BCs and long range shooting. Unfortunately my home range will only support shooting 200 yds and I won't know how any of them perform out to over 1000 yards until I shoot a match.

Thanks for all the info.

[QUOTE
But like I said,it just does not work for me..Now maybe that is the issue,the length of the bullet its self..I have never tried the 155 lapua's...I just hate to buy a box and not have them work..It would be outstanding if they did though....John[/QUOTE]

You can buy a few bullets to try from bulletsamples.com; also seems like I read Brownells sells sample quantities. With 10 or so you should be able to tell if a new bullet has good potential or not.

Thanks Charlie! Didn't know that. Just looked and that's what I'll be trying. That's what I love about these forums. Tons on useful information.:biggrin-new:

No one can take this overall subject and condense it to a single category.

It not just "one thing"; jumping or jamming, long vs short bullet, heavy vs light, plus no one mentioned long vs short freebore, or slow vs long burning powder, and I can't recall if long vs short barrel length, or the number of groves in the barrel, etc.....

It's all of the above: All things being equal, you can't have a long bullet without weight--now before someone jumps off their horse, I did say all things being equal--each type of bullet is different but in the formula(s) for design weight cannot be dismissed: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...et_weights.htm

Therefore the velocity, bullet design, seating depth, barrel length, powder burn rate, freebore, neck tension, and case design (is there room for the correct powder/bullet combo) etc.... All have to be taken as a whole to predict how a particular bullet will act, in a particular twist rate....

JBM has a great calculator, it enhances ones ability to calculate the outcome in principle and in practice :cool:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...et_weights.htm

Thanks Fubar. I"ve been using the JBM calculator to figure what bullet will work. I loaded some Nosler 168 gr. Competition with 45.0 gr of Varget yesterday to use to foul my barrel before shooting a group and just for kicks and grins I shot a couple of groups that were under 1/2". Unfortunately I don't think that bullet will be traveling fast enough past 1000 yards to stay stable. Most of they shooters I'm shooting with are using the 175 gr SMKs because of the BCs. Best those bullets do from my rifle is .8" and ususally I'm closer to 1". Probably good enough but I'd like to stay closer to 1/2". Teele is using the 185 gr. Berger long range BTs and I've ordered some of them from bulletsample.com and I'm hoping that they will shoot good and I can seat them short enough to load them into my magazine. What I may do is shoot the Nosler Competion bullets out to 900 yards and then switch to the Berger or SMKs. I'm also going to try the SMK 155 gr Palma. They have a really good BC also.
It's all part of the game. It's frustrating sometimes when the load you think should shoot doesn't however it's a lot of fun when you finally figure it all out and you see that nice cluster on the target.

Loneranger04:

I'm sure you'er better at shooting tiny groups at 1000 yards than I, as long as I can hit in my target radius I'm happy...

In other words I'm more interested in accuracy than precision :confused:

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Originally Posted by FUBAR

Loneranger04:

I'm sure you'er better at shooting tiny groups at 1000 yards than I, as long as I can hit in my target radius I'm happy...

In other words I'm more interested in accuracy than precision :confused:

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I doubt that. I'm very new to this long range game. My first match I shot with my hunting rifle but I was hooked and bought this rifle and scope and started working on loads. November match will be the first time I'll have shot this rifle in a match so...

First thought, go on accurate shooter and ask the members what has been working for them.... http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?board=7.0

Make sure you provide all info on your rifle.

Have you done a Ladder Test on the loads you think are most promising?

Do you know the precise chamber length, and chamber neck size?

Are you checking concentricity of the rounds?

Seating depth may have a positive outcome, but you need precision measurements.

And keep in mind that the most important rule is that every barrel is a rule unto itself. If that weren't the case, everyone would use the same load and every rifle would shoot bugholes. While the predictive software can tell you what happens after the bullet leaves the barrel, what it can't do is match barrel harmonics and that is really what is going to make the difference with accuracy.

We all need to keep in mind that we are talking about a Bull barrel .308 at 100 yards...

Barrel harmonics can certainly have an impact, and barrel tuners can somtimes improve precision....

However this is a bull barrel that should be shooting .50 or less with the right selection of factory ammo at 100 yards, asssuming the shooter does their part. I would bet money that adding a barrel tuner to this rifle would not help much with the same loads and conditions outlined in the OP.

Loneranger04 has one of two issues:

1. A "bad" barrel--and that does happen every so often, and the reasons are pure speculation at this point, but they could include a poor break-in sequence....shooting a couple of different types of factory known performers might eliminate some assumptions

2. Bad ammo--with hand crafted ammo the variables are many, we talked about several in this thread...
--altitude and climate could change the POI but not the spread, all things being equal
--the bad ammo premise changes the "all things being equal" assumption.

Note: Shooting a couple of different types of factory known performers at 100 yards will most eliminate some assumptions

Please don't take this wrong, but I see most of the shooting that you told us about is not in group size based scored matches. So, that being said do you have another rifle that you are shooting .5 MOA or smaller groups regularly with? Have you let someone you know can shoot those kinds of groups try shooting it? The reason I ask is I have shot my whole life and always considered myself a pretty good shot. That was until I put together a really good rifle, and found that there is a huge difference in shootong 1.0-0.7 MOA groups and shooting sub 0.5 groups. I'm still working on my form and can get in the 0.6 range, but can't seem to break into the 0.5 or less club on every group yet.

It certainly could be me. I shoot pistol much more than I do rifle but I can usually take my old 30-06 deer rifle with a 3x9 Leupold and get under 1" groups. I bought this rifle from a young man that had it made up for him and, from what I can tell and read, he did it all right. Manners stock, Criterion Bull barrel, Kevin Rayhill trued action and bedded the action to the stock. Great trigger. It's one of those rifles that just looking at it it looks like it ought to shoot bug holes with any ammo. Has a 20 moa seekins rail and I mounted a Vortex PST 6-24 FFP mil/mil scope withj Seekins rings. Been using Lee collet neck die for sizing and Redding micrometer seating die. I've got nearly zero runout using a Sinclair runout gauge. Using CCI BR 2 primers. The other day I shot two groups with Nosler 168 gr Competion bullets and 45.0 grs of Varget and one group was 1/2" and the other was 3/8" however I need the BC of bullets like 175 SMK to be sure the bullet will have enough velocity past 1000 yards to stay stable and not tumble ( a problem some of my buddies are having with the lower BC bullets). Every one I shoot with uses SMK 175 because they have a good BC and are fairly resonable but they just shoot so so in my rifle. My problem is I don't want to buy a box of this and a box of that to see which bullet with the right BC will shoot best (the reason I asked this question here originally. Wanted to find out what others were having best luck with) so...thanks to one of the earlier posters I found Bulletsamples.com and ordered some SMK 155 Palmas and Berger 185 gr long range target BT. One is at one end of the weight range and the other is at the other end. We will see if I can get one of these to perform better than the 175 SMKs.
Thanks for all the replies. I let you all know how it turns out. They shipped my bullets today so should get to shoot them next week maybe.

Sounds like you have a good start, you know the gun will shoot for you, now just find the combo...

What is MV with the 168s with the Varget? Is it close to max for your rifle?

I have been told by many senior BR shooters, in skill and time shooting, that CCI BR primers are the very same as the standard CCIs....I certainly can't tell the difference in MV, ES, or anything else. Have you tried Fed match or mag primers? With certain powder & bullet combos I have increased MV without increasing powder by changing primers.

I would suggest only changing one thing at a time, but of course stick with the same bullet while doing so...sounds like you only need a recipe for your rifle

I don't shoot IBR type BR anymore and never shot a 308 Win, but I still shoot Longrange comp for fun/bragging rights, things like golf balls at known distance & unknown distance and the less shots to hit it the better:cool:

Good Shooting

Let me guess, the problem with tumbling bullets is with the 168 SMK?

Loneranger04: Below is a couple of conversations from another site about Berger 168 hybrids--

"I shoot them in my .308. They have made it a whole new experience at long range (800-1000). I use them with RL15 & I jump mine .020 for best results in my rifle. I absolutely love them. I shoot my SMK's as foulers now. The Bergers a little spendy but they sure do perform."

"I just won my first 1000 yard F T/R match using these bullets. They shoot very well and hold elevation better than the 185 LRBT from my rifle. I'm driving them hard with a stout load of Varget, Lapua brass, and soft seating the bullet. I've shot a lot of the 185's but these are my new "go to" bullet. I'm really impressed with them..."

Thanks Fubar. Now I wish that I would have ordered some of those. And "yes" I do believe that they were 168 gr smk. We've got a picture of one of the steel targets with the imprint in the paint of a the bullet hitting sideways. There are just so many different components to try. I started with Winchester standard large rifle primers but my SDs were double digit. Started off from the beginning using Lapua brass.
Can't wait to see how these next batch of bullets shoot. Kinda hopin' that the 155 gr SMK Palmas shoot great. Would like to have a little lighter recoil with the lighter bullets. Also they are a little cheaper than the Bergers.

Oh, I haven't chrono'd the 168s yet. I had the 175 SMKs running pretty close to 2700 fps with only 44.3 gr of Varget. At least that's what the CED pro read. Seems a little fast according to some of my other loads though. I'll have to varify my actual dope compared to JBMs calculations. Hopefully I can get someone to spot me at the match.