bullet preference for Criterion barel in .223

I am hoping that my fellow members here can give me their feedback/experience on the prefered bullet for the Criterion barrel in .223 (1:8 twist). I bought one of these from Jim (NSS) and while I'm getting good results with 69gr - 80gr SMKs, I'm thinking that the barrel will do better (maybe with a diff. Bullet). My factory LRPV (26") barrel shoots the 69gr SMKs just under 1/4" moa (using Varget), so I figured the Criterion could easily match that - but sadly, I've not been able to break the sub 1/3" moa using any of the SMKs (again... using Varget). I did once try to shoot some of the 75gr AMaxes in the factory barrel with poor results. yet I've heard that these are phenominal bullets, so I'm going to try a box of them in the Criterion.

What bullet(s) are you finding work best in the Criterion .223 barrels (and some loading info would be nice to share if you don't mind - thinking of trying RL-15)?

My 1:7 223AI likes 80gr Amax, and your 1:8 probably will too.

jhelmuth;

Check your PM.

Thanks guys. I was hoping to get some info back on the original question, but I do appreciate you offers.


Does anyone out there shoot a Criterion in .223 out there? Mine is a 28" barrel in 1:8 and was figuing to shoot the heavier pills at longer distances....

Hey Jim -
I have a 223 WSSM on the way. If you have anything that doesn't work for you, drop me a line. I may be able to trade / buy them from you.
I'm starting out with 50 & 55 Nosler & Hornady in hopes of working up toward the heavier stuff (75's?)..

This is somewhat incharted territory for me. I've never reloaded for anything quite like the WSSM.

Frank in Fla

Sure Frank..... Glad to be of any help I can.

I have one 26" wylde chamber so far I've tried 75 gr amax's and hpbt along with 80 gr amax's with varget all 3 will hold 5 shots into 3/4" st 300 yds if I do my part

I regret not specifying the Wylde chamber for mine...

Well.... tried using RL-15 with the 75gr AMaxes yesterday. Nothing shot all that well (not for a Criterion at least). I may try using Varget and see how that would work with them.


I was hoping that there would be quite a few more here in the community who had used the Criterion barrels in .223 (esp. with the 1:8 twist). Does anyone know what these barrels like? I can't seem to do better than a group of 5 at .328" at 100 yards.

Hey Jim - Good Morning.
I'm heading out to the range now to try out the 223wssm. On tap for this morning will be Hornady 50gr V-Max with 4o64 & 55gr Noslers with 4350.

I thought I'd try a faster & a slower powder for each. I found the Hornady V-maxes on sale locally so I got 2 bags of 100 each. If they don't work out you might want to look for them in your mailbox in a few days...

From everything I've read & heard over the past week I'm awfully tempted to pick up a can of Varget. I hear guys that use it on a regular basis swear by the stuff.
I did try some H380 in my .243 a few weeks ago & hated it. So did my rifle.
I'll drop you a line later. Have yo' sef' a fabulous Saturday. ------> Cold front pushing thru!!!! I hear the temps are going to "PLUNGE" into the low 80's!!!
Better get out the winter gear.... Oh, wait a minute..... I don't have any.
Frank in Fla

Every barrel is a rule unto itself. Even though it's a relatively fast twist, you might find that it likes light or middle weight bullets...and .32" is nothing to complain about considering that you're not talking about a benchrest rifle or a true custom barrel.

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Originally Posted by helotaxi

Every barrel is a rule unto itself. Even though it's a relatively fast twist, you might find that it likes light or middle weight bullets...and .32" is nothing to complain about considering that you're not talking about a benchrest rifle or a true custom barrel.

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So am I to conclude...

[1] Twist rate really doesn't matter. You just need to get a barrel and try it until you find a barrel that shoots what you'd like.

[2] Since I can shoot better groups with my factory Savage barrel, and since Criterion are not custom barrels - then Criterion barrels are kinda a crap shoot on performance (over Savage barrels).

[3] Savage PTAs (actions) are pretty much crap and should never be used for a benchrest rifle..


This is for an F/TR rifle in .223 using a Savage PTA (timed and trued by Fred) in a HS Precision stock and a Sightron SIII 8-32x 56mm 1/8 MOA scope. I guess this was a bad choice?

I was hoping that there were more folks here using these Criterion barrels and would have some insight on what has worked well in theirs (given how common .223 is). My Criterion in .308 is as good as it gets (IMNSHO). I guess I thought Criterions were all excellent barrels....

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Originally Posted by jhelmuth

So am I to conclude...

[1] Twist rate really doesn't matter. You just need to get a barrel and try it until you find a barrel that shoots what you'd like.

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Nothing like going to a complete extreme, eh? A good barrel will shoot everything that it can stabilize well while shooting loads that it likes excellent.

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[2] Since I can shoot better groups with my factory Savage barrel, and since Criterion are not custom barrels - then Criterion barrels are kinda a crap shoot on performance (over Savage barrels).

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Sounds like you had an exceptional Savage barrel. Darn the luck

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[3] Savage PTAs (actions) are pretty much crap and should never be used for a benchrest rifle..

This is for an F/TR rifle in .223

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Which isn't a benchrest rifle, thus my point, which thanks to your strong desire to take my comments to the illogical extreme, you seem to have forgotten. And no one commented on the quality of action, anyway. How does it shoot at 300 or 600yds since that's what really matters? For an affordable, button rifled, drop-in barrel, what exactly did you expect? You expecting a rifle in the 1's from a sub $500 barrel?

+1^^

If I had a .25 barrel, I don't believe I would touch it. There is nothing stating that any barrel, ANY barrel, will be less than .25. Now while you did buy a fast twist for heavier bullets, you might want to try something lighter. My 1:8 twist absolutely loves 52 grain NBTs. I really wanted to shoot 75 grain Amaxes but the rifle had other plans. Other than stabilizing a bullet, twist rate does not have anything to do with acccuracy.

The .223 Criterion I worked up loads for loved Ramshot Hunter and 52 grain V Max, they were sub .2".

If you haven't tried 80/80.5/82gr Bergers, you ain't done testing yet.

I'd also say if a factory Savage barrel shoots sub-3s then you are a lucky man who got a barrel that's the exception, rather than the rule.

...deleted (accidental double post - see below)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by helotaxi

Nothing like going to a complete extreme, eh? A good barrel will shoot everything that it can stabilize well while shooting loads that it likes excellent.

Sounds like you had an exceptional Savage barrel. Darn the luck


Which isn't a benchrest rifle, thus my point, which thanks to your strong desire to take my comments to the illogical extreme, you seem to have forgotten. And no one commented on the quality of action, anyway. How does it shoot at 300 or 600yds since that's what really matters? For an affordable, button rifled, drop-in barrel, what exactly did you expect? You expecting a rifle in the 1's from a sub $500 barrel?

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Sorry that I took you literally... I guess we were both extreme? My apologies.... just thought the same about your commentary (and it wasn't very helpful to me - it wasn't addressing what I had asked about).


Anywho... maybe you can help me by educating me on the difference between a benchrest rifle and a F/TR (other than the rests, stock and shooting position). I'm sure I'm in the wrong here - but I'm of the opinion that the combined barrel and action, bolted corretly in a bedded stock provides the accuracy (not the "style" of the stock as this is more about putting the shooter into a "best" position to gain the "best" shot for the competition). In other words... If I put the action (Savage PTA single shot in this case) and barrel (the Criterion in question in this case) into a benchrest stock (a slightly modified Savage F Class factory stock), and then shoot it from the bench using an adjustable bechrest front and bechrest rear bag then (to me) I ought to have a reasonable idea of the subject load's ability to shoot well. This is how I test loads. I'm consistant with that method so I have a very fair comparrison on the loads (not the shooter). Maybe that is a bad idea. I'm certainly open to learning and taking good ideas and making changes to the process.

So help me learn... how is a benchrest different (other than as I described ablove)? What am I doing wrong in testing?


Really... I'm open to learning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BoilerUP

If you haven't tried 80/80.5/82gr Bergers, you ain't done testing yet.

I'd also say if a factory Savage barrel shoots sub-3s then you are a lucky man who got a barrel that's the exception, rather than the rule.

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Thanks B.... I may try the Hornady's with Varget - but I WILL definately try the Bergers.

First the barrel on an F-Class rifle is WAY too long for a 100-200yd benchrest gun. Second, it's not chambered in .22 or 6mm PPC (only being very slightly sarcastic here). The other thing that you have to consider is the bullets that you're shooting. Long, high-BC boat tails give up short range accuracy for the sake of long range consistency and resistance to wind drift. The bullets used for tiny groups at short range are all very light, all flat based and all pushed at mach snot.

IMO, you're focusing on the wrong thing. How does it shoot at long range? Last I checked, F-class is shot at much longer ranges than 100yds so group size at that range is not worth getting all down about. What is the standard dev on your muzzle velocity? That is going to have a bigger effect at 600yds than 1/3 MOA of dispersion. I've run the numbers, an SD into the double digits can have an enormous effect at range.

Thanks H....

You are right about the distance. Unfortunately, I have quite a drive to get the 200+ yard testing range and I do tend to use the more local (35 min drive) 100 yard range as a starting point. Having done most "early" testing using 69 gr .223 bullets (which I'm sure lend themselves better to the shorter ranges) I guess I'm just a bit frustrated that I can't use the local range to "find" a good starting point for a 2 hour drive to the over 200 yard range with some bullets that I can focus on "sets" and vary the bullet seating (which I don't actually have much wiggle room on since I failed to order the Wylde chambering).

I'm not "trying" to focus on the wrong thing, but my lack of experience shows and even though I "knew" that - I allowed myself to "convince" me that it was OK to avoid all the necessary driving in order to developo the load.


Thank you for the help (reaally - I do appreciate it). BTW - My Avg ES = 29 Avg SD = 12 and Avg MV was between 2889 (@23.6gr of RL-15) to 2978 (at 24.1gr).

MY "pick" of these would have been 23.6gr with an Avg MV of 2889 an ES of 30 and an SD of 10.


I've always looked at my SD (and ES to some extent) telling how good I'm doing at the loading bench. Now in this particular session, I got a couple of single digit SD's (7 and 9) with ES's of 14 and 27 respectively. What more am I missing out of my ES/SD data?

Run a drop table using 2x your SD above and below your average velocity. I think that you'll find out that the velocity spread will overwhelm your 1/3 MOA 100yd groups when you get out to longer ranges. Velocity differences don't show up at all at 100yds. For your "pick" you can expect vertical dispersion from velocity variation of 0.16 MOA @ 300yds and 0.57 MOA @ 600. That increases to 1.5MOA @ 1k.

My point in all this. You really need to get your SD in the 2-3fps range. Neck tension and primers are often the key on that.

Wow... 2-3fps for an SD. Very challenging.

I'm using CCI BR primers. Any suggestions? Are primers a crap shoot, or is there a "good" choice based on the round and/or powder?

2-3 for an SD would mean that for a 100rd sample 95 of them would fall within an extreme spread of 4-6fps with the last 5 still under 10. Single digit extreme spreads are where you need to be. The longer the range and the smaller the target, the more important it is to get the SD as low as possible. Shooting a very high BC bullet can minimize the effect of velocity variation and give you a little more wiggle room. There's a reason why the .223 and .308 are all that's allowed in F/TR. It's essentially a handicap division. They are totally outclassed in Open because of their limited velocity and BC available. F/TR is about getting a consistent load and getting really good at reading the wind. He who has the most consistent load and does the best job of reading the wind will win 99% of the time. Compare that to Open where the guy shooting the highest BC bullet at the highest velocity has a buffer against bad wind calls and load variation.