7.62x39 loads for Savage Scout (10FCM) rifle with ghost ring sights

This is a followup on my posting in the optics section ( http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,44636.0.html )
This post concentrates more on load development than on optics:

Back on 19 September, I tried a 100 yard ladder test. Although I discussed the results in the other thread, here they are in "thousand word" format:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-t...9_172606AA.JPG

When I tagged each hole with the powder charge, it didn't help. As far as I could tell, the holes were reasonably randomly distributed.
Thus, I concluded that my ladder test to find nodes was an utter failure.

So I decided to go another route: I looked at some ballistic tables and figured out that I needed about 2250 FPS over my chronograph in order to have 1000 pounds of energy (arbitrary ethical kill energy) remaining at 250 yards. At that speed, I could be about 4" high at 100 yards, dead on at 200 and about 5.5-6" low at 250 yards. (I don't plan to shoot at 250 yards, but when buck fever hits me I may not be able to accurately range between 100 and 250, so I thought I'd better be safer as far as killing power goes. ::)

Factory Wolf and Bernaul 154Grain SoftPoints chrono at about 2220 so I figured there was probably a way to work up to a safe load at the speed I wanted.

Lee and Hodgdon Load data indicates that with H4895, and 150 grain jacketed bullet, 28 grains is max. I tried two different brasses (S&B, Winchester) and was not seeing any pressure signs at 28 so I carefully crept up in .2grain increments. Eventually the Winchester brass started showing flattened primers so I stopped using it (range brass, no idea how many or what type of loads had been in it before.) The S&B Brass stayed good and didn't show any signs of overpressure, so I kept on going higher.

Standard warnings apply: Don't use my loadings in your rifle. They are over the published max. Start with 10% less than published max and work up using your own rifle, brass, and other components. As I mentioned, this was too high a pressure for Winchester brass, but worked in my S&B brass. I don't know what will work in your rifle. I am also using .308 bullets as I have a .308 bore, NOT a .311 bore. It all makes a difference. So Be safe.

So...here's what I ended up with today:
Today's first target with an honest group of 2.239" ctc. Loading data and chrono data are on the target, but if you can't read, I used S&B brass (Once fired and neck sized), 28.8 g of H4895 with a Combinecd Technology Partition Moly Free that I moly-coated, COAL approximately 1.853.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y...6_200721AA.JPG

Than I shot 5 shots, identical loading data except 29.0 grains of H4895. Chrono speeds were 2252, 2246, 2223, 2256, 2239. It looked like this:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s...6_200826AA.JPG

I am getting no pressure signs in either the 28.8g or the 29.0g loads.

My thoughts now run in the direction of loading up a lot of the 28.8 loads and going with that.

Why the 4895? I have it on hand and R7 and AA1680 seem to be hard to find here.

Why am I using the partitions? I have a lot of them. Got them on sale from Midway when CT stopped making them.

Why moly? I figured I could get the most out of my powder load that way and minimize the pressure as much as possible since these are somewhat over the top loads.

This is a walking around the woods rifle. Don't plan on shooting anything over 200 yards.

Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated?

Below is the worlds first scout rifle in the bottom of the photo, it called a Winchester 30-30 Trapper Model and has a 16 1/2 inch barrel. Forgive me, no insult intended "BUT" you can't shoot a ladder test with a Ghost ring sight and a big honking white bead front sight. Sorry but there is just too much room for sighting errors, scope your rifle, test your ammo, remove the scope.

[img width=600 height=315]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7237.jpg[/img]

[img width=522 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP1933.jpg[/img]

[img width=484 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP1932.jpg[/img]

Below is a 50 yard group fired from a 66 year old No.4 British Enfield with PH-5C Parker Hale target sights that have a very fine front blade sight and an adjustable aperture.

[img width=600 height=426]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/PH5C.jpg[/img]

[img width=487 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/range-day-2-1.jpg[/img]

Because I'm 61 years old and have chronological gifted eyesight I have to cheat even to shoot the group above.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/IMGP6270.jpg

The No.4 Enfield had a flip sight designed for quick minute of man shooting and when extended it was capable of shooting past 1000 yards.

[img width=600 height=402]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4083.jpg[/img]

You have a scout rifle designed for fast shooting and not bench rest accuracy with iron sights.
(below a British Enfield "scout rifle" ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...dp51/No5JC.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Below is the worlds first scout rifle in the bottom of the photo, it called a Winchester 30-30 Trapper Model and has a 16 1/2 inch barrel.

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That's a big leap there! Just curious - what's the rationale for calling the 94 with an aperture sight "first"?

Quote:

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Eric in NC

That's a big leap there! Just curious - what's the rationale for calling the 94 with an aperture sight "first"?

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When you write the story Eric in NC, you can word it any way you want to. Or do you want to start an argument about the Chinese inventing gunpowder and short barreled bamboo hand cannons and the Ming dynasty.

Or are you the forum literary critic. ::)

Just sit back Eric, relax and enjoy the show and don't take everything so seriously. ;)

(it could also mean I been shooting short barreled carbines before the "word" scout rifle was invented) :o

Thomae - only way you will be able to tell is to use an optical sight, mechanical rest (sled), etc. I think you are on the right track but the moly is a waste of time (my opinion only of course). Would also question the partitions at the velocity you are getting (will they open up?) but if you put them in the boiler room I am sure they will work ok. Again - I would suggest bullets made for the 30/30. 2.2" with the sight setup you have is probably as good as you can expect (but who knows until you test it with a scope or better sight setup).

Mr. Big Ed - I just asked why you felt the 94 was the "first" when a "scout rifle" is a specialty rifle defined by Jeff Cooper. The 94 doesn't fit his definition (able to hit man sized targets out to 450 yards etc. etc.). If the 94 is "first", why not the 76 or the 73 or the 66 or...

By the way - I don't take much of anything on the web/tv/radio "seriously". Mostly just pulling your chain since you posted a "fact" that is highly debateable. Also wanted to find out if I had a bunch of collectable "early" scout rifles... ;)

[img width=600 height=233]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/scout1.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=247]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/scout2.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/scout3.jpg[/img]

Heck - you could even call the two band Springfield rifled musket a "scout" I guess

[img width=600 height=105]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/scout4.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=449]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/scout5.jpg[/img]

And I do enjoy the show - I have been shooting before "scout rifles" were invented as well. And I even know a bit about Lees, Enfields, and Lee-Enfields.
Remington Lee
[img width=600 height=347]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/LE1.jpg[/img]
Very early Winchester P14 Enfield
[img width=600 height=356]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/le2.jpg[/img]
SSA (not BSA) Lee-Enfield
[img width=510 height=450]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/LE3.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd314/erbeckerdite/scout/le4.jpg[/img]

Good luck with your deer Thomae!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric in NC

Thomae - only way you will be able to tell is to use an optical sight, mechanical rest (sled), etc. I think you are on the right track but the moly is a waste of time (my opinion only of course). Would also question the partitions at the velocity you are getting (will they open up?) but if you put them in the boiler room I am sure they will work ok. Again - I would suggest bullets made for the 30/30. 2.2" with the sight setup you have is probably as good as you can expect (but who knows until you test it with a scope or better sight setup).

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Eric,
Thanks for the reply. My comments on your thoughts:
Optical sight - LER/Scout scope? I'd like to try, but don't own one appropriate for this rifle and don't plan on spending the money any time soon. I may buy a sight insert with a smaller aperture and see what that does, but for now, since I am down to minute of deer out to about 200 yards, I think I am ok.

From my research, I found that Nosler claims the 30 Cal partition is designed to open up starting at about 1800 FPS. Hopefully it will work for me at 2200fps. I'll have over 1800 FPS out to about 200 yards, and over 1000 pounds of energy out to about 250. Historically, my shots have been well under 100 yards. I guess we'll see. (Murphy's law says that when I am carrying the Scout rifle, I'll only see deer at 350 yards or so. ) I guess there is only one way to find out. If it looks bad, I'll switch, but right now I have a lot of them (the partition 150s), so I thought I'd start with what I had before buying even more reloading components. (If SWMBO found out how many bullets and how much brass I have, I'd likely be in serious trouble.

I was thinking about trying out some 30-30 bullets, but after finding out the velocity range of the partitions, I decided to go with them. I can always switch later.

As for the Moly, I am not sure if it is helping, but it is not hurting. The point o fusing it is to allow higher velocity with lower pressure from the relatively small case. Perhaps I'll try the same load with moly free bullets to see how much of a difference it makes and whether or not I get any pressure signs. Again, Moly is inexpensive and I have a lot of it on hand, so I thought, "What the heck?"

The most difficult part, as you well know, is to get the deer to agree to cooperate!

Nice arsenal of classic rifles you have. ;D

Good luck with your deer as well.

Quote:

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Posted by: Eric in NC
(able to hit man sized targets out to 450 yards etc. etc.)

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With a ghost ring sight and a over sized white bead front sight on the Savage Scout rifle, only if your using laser guided bullets ::)

thomae,
Just got done working up and testing some loads with the 123gr bullets in my 7.62. With win brass, CCI 200s, 123gr Hornady sps and 26gr of H4198 I was seeing 2300fps and 1"-1.5" @ 50 yards with open sights. That would put you at just under 1000 ft/lbs @ 200 yards (867) with a 6" drop from a 100 yard zero. You would obviously be giving up a little energy, but may make it up in accuracy. YMMV matt.

Thanks, Matt, :D
I appreciate the tip.
I'm considering purchasing an adjustable aperture so that I can vary the sight picture as I need it for different light conditions.
All the best.

As a couple of others have said- if you really want to concentrate on accuracy at 100-200 yards a scope and a rest are critical in my opinion. If you don't have a spare scope, pm me, I have one you can borrow.