You guys with glass & pillar bedded laminated stocks, what are you torquing your action screws to ?
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You guys with glass & pillar bedded laminated stocks, what are you torquing your action screws to ?
Hand tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by r29l20
I'm having a hard time finding the (hand tight) setting on my torque wrench. ;)
Discard that torque wrench...it's defective. Just use a T handle allen wrench, and tighten to hand tight, they're already set for that.
So I guess torque tuning does not matter ? ???
25 inch pounds - wooden stocks
45 inch pounds - plastic stocks
65 inch pounds - composite stocks
Non-technical worthless terms
Hand tight
Gorilla tight
Tighten the screw until the threads start to smoke and then give it two more full turns. ::)
And how many people do you know with a calibrated wrist and elbow?????
[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fatwrench.jpg[/img]
Accustock .223 @ 100 yds
Typical at 30 lbs ins
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...110716GRP3.jpg
Typical at 40 lbs ins
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y28...lackHills4.jpg
Not shown are the wide scatter groups at less than 30 lbs/in
If you have a torque wrench in inch-pounds it's real easy to see what works by testing. It's fun to watch the group sizes change with just a bit of attention to the torque involved, it does make a difference. The best mechanics I know use torque wrenches in addition to 'feel'. Trust but verify.
[img width=600 height=450]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/sharp-shooter/600ydlg.jpg[/img]
600 yds, hand tight. Torque wrenches are for those who are allergic to spinach. ;D
It is plain and simple, if you have a stock set up that torquing the screws makes a difference, well then you have a bedding problem. A properly bedded stock will not require anything more than hand tight.
5 shot 100 yard groups shot from a gun with a hand tight properly bedded stock.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...nthehigh1s.jpg
[img width=415 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan0004.jpg[/img]
[img width=497 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan-1.jpg[/img]
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...0002-2-1-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...scan0003-1.jpg
yeah and i had a guy tell me that factory ammo shoots better out of all guns and there is no need for reloading any more ::)
torque tuning is a little known trick to get a little extra out of ur load and rifle if u have a bedded stock and dont feel like you need it then dont do it. I do it and feel that it helps.
It comes down to "whatever floats yer boat and works for you".
82boy
With respect to you 82boy and the rest of the bug hole shooters, how many people have target rifles like you and the majority of competitive shooters have.
Second, "you" developed your bug hole loads to "your" hand tight, BUT hand tight to Arnold Schwarzenegger would be far different than hand tight to Pee-wee Herman. :o
I have seen Silhouette rifles that came with a simple allen wrench and a weight to hang at the end of the allen wrench for action screw torquing. If the rifle is bedded using a pillar bedding system used as screw stops then screw torque will have less of a effect. BUT for the majority of rifles torquing the bedding screws is an accurate and very reliable method of "repeat" accuracy of action screw tightening and tuning.
There are many, many ways of tuning a rifle and the German military Mauser rifles had steps cut in the barrels at the vibration node points to help control barrel vibrations and improve accuracy. ;)
[img width=600 height=334]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0993.jpg[/img]
A "properly bedded stock" means repeatability from shot to shot which means accuracy.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...bare-movie.gif
Sorry BigEdp51, your wrong again. All of then groups was shot with a Modified Savage Model 11 except for one that was shot with a model 12. There are not what you would call a "target rifles like you and the majority of competitive shooters have."Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
Theses groups was not shot with a Bat, Panda, Hall or other custom action that "bug hole shooters" are associated with shooting. Hand tight has NOTHING to do with strength it deals with common sense. Besides the gun that shot them groups has been apart many times, and everytime it is put back together it shoots exactly the same in the exact same place. With that said, If torque really means what you say it does either I have the most repeatable torque of hand tight, or it doesn't matter. Well lets put it this way either my torque is calibrated exactly the same as Sharp shooters, because he has also had the gun apart and back together, and guess what it shoots the same and in the same spot, or again it doesn't matter.
Here is a few other pictures for you to ponder over. All of them are 5 shoot 100 yard groups. This was a groups shot out of a box stock mod 12 Precision carbine. Guess what it was torqued hand tight. I found that after the wedge was removed, the gun shot well. But I would say the gun would have shot better if it was properly bedded.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...IMG_0082-1.jpg
[img width=422 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/IMG_0081-1.jpg[/img]
Here is a modified model 110
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psfired001.jpg
Here is the same gun that shot the groups in the past thread with a different barrel, The load was not tuned just in the development stages.
[img width=392 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/30brtest2001.jpg[/img]
This was out of a box stock model 12 benchrest.
[img width=389 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan.jpg[/img]
[img width=546 height=450]http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/Model12benchrest-1.jpg[/img]
O' and a factory out of the box Savage edge/axis rifle.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...Group1Edge.jpg
Every one of the guns was taken apart and was hand tight assembled by me before shooting. And to finish this arguement, Guess what, I have tried torquing actions screws, and what I found was it did not make a single bit of difference.
I was going to say something else BUT this "IS" SavageShooters.com, I'm new here and my two new Stevens 200 have free floating barrels and were designed that way. BUT my new Remington 700 has up pressure at the fore end tip with 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure so each rifle is different.Quote:
82boy
And to finish this arguement, Guess what, I have tried torquing actions screws, and what I found was it did not make a single bit of difference.
I will also add the Remington and Savage have recommended torque values for their stocks so understand why people are asking questions.
As a side note I respect you judgment and I was going to PM you soon and ask your opinion about replacement stocks for my new Stevens 200 rifles. But my torque wrench will still be used because it "might" not improve anything but it will not hurt anything either.
I will also say this at 61 years of age, these two new Stevens 200 are some of the most accurate out of the box rifles I have ever shot. And the Remington 700 was a bit of a disappointment, the trained Beavers they use the chew out the bolt face recess on the new Remington 700s need better training. And on top of this the Remington 700 had only one locking lug make good firm contact and the other lug was barely touching.
[img width=600 height=395]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7463.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=441]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7461.jpg[/img]
Are you showing us the fronts of the lugs?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
The fronts of the lugs help with camming when the shell is extracted.
As far as I know the fronts do not need to touch evenly or even at all, just the backs where they are holding the pressure when the rifle fires.
Michael Grace
Hey Ed send it back to remington so they can send it back to you with a note saying the bolt face is in spec or better than spec. ::)
The 1943 Remington emergency war time production 03-A3 I had was machined better than what they are producing today. And the shame of it is the two older Remington 700 I had were better quality. Don't get me wrong I'm 61 years old and have chronologically gifted eyesight and didn't even see the bolt defects until I took the bolt photo and enlarged it. I'm thinking about trading it in on another Savage/Stevens rifle which I discovered far to late in life. :'(Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
I took the photo because in another thread someone was asking "why" his fired primers looked odd and were "flowing" around the firing pin, and thought the loads were too hot. ::)
Yes I'm showing you the "FRONT" of the bolt face to show the defects on the bolt face, pits and the inward tapered firing pin hole. I'm "NOT" showing the "REAR" of the locking lugs where they contact the receiver lug recesses. Please note that not everyone who posts here is brain dead and doesn't know how a bolt action rifle locks up. ::)Quote:
Are you showing us the fronts of the lugs?
The fronts of the lugs help with camming when the shell is extracted.
As far as I know the fronts do not need to touch evenly or even at all, just the backs where they are holding the pressure when the rifle fires.
Michael Grace
(or owns a torque wrench and torques his action screws) :o
Or are you trying to say I made a bad call on this posting...................... ::)
[img width=450 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/blind.jpg[/img]
Or I don't know why the Savage line of bolt action rifles always have both lugs touching equally?????
[img width=575 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6477-a.jpg[/img]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
I was just asking a question to clarify what was being said as I thought the pic and text were not matching up.
If i was a bit confused there may have been others that were also, now I see exactly what your point was.
Michael Grace
Michael Grace
Sometimes my two dyslexic fingers do not type clearly, please do not worry about it I may have been having a bad day and my under ware may have been too tight.
What I'm saying next is because of your home location, my dad was stationed at Whidbey Island Washington during the Korean war and Drank Olympia beer as long as he could find it.
(grab a cold Oly) ;)