New Barrel Time

Just ordered a new barrel. Decided on Criterion from James at NSS. Came down to price. Just couldn’t pass up their deal. First time I’ve spoken to James. It was interesting, funny at some points. Now look, I understand he doesn’t know me, and as the business, he’s making sure that the customer has everything they need. But I almost wanted to say a couple times in a nice way, “look my friend, I know we haven’t met, but trust me I know what I’m doing.” Of course I wouldn’t do that, LOL! Like I said, it was just kinda funny. He repeated a couple times.. “are you sure it’s a Small Shank?” LOL. Yeees.. I’m sure partner!:rolleyes: And he made a couple comments a bit off the cuff, at one point saying “that seems strange”. Anyway, nice guy. So I ordered a 28” Stainless 260 AI with .160” freebore. 1:7.5” twist.


I came so close to ordering a McGowen, but had an email conversation with someone there the day of, and got a red flag during. I’ve been doing all this long enough to know if you sense something wrong leave it be. Bit of a shame. I really did want to give McGowen a try. But I know the Criterion will perform, so I’m happy.

Now the 12-20 week wait for the barrel, LOL! Good thing I’m patient.

:violin:Yep, but those that follow the 7 "P's" are always ahead of the game.

I'm guessing James has been bitten more that once on Bbl.orders and just wants to make 110% sure you'll are both on the same page

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Originally Posted by Shooter0302

:violin:Yep, but those that follow the 7 "P's" are always ahead of the game.

I'm guessing James has been bitten more that once on Bbl.orders and just wants to make 110% sure you'll are both on the same page

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Oh, I couldn’t agree more. No.., I get it completely. That what I said in the beginning, we’ve never met. So he has no idea of what I know. I wasn’t upset or anything. Just thought it was funny.

Same thing happens here at times. Be trying to help someone with a question and ask pretty basic, almost “DUH” questions. But I really try to explain it to those looking for help… “Hey, I’m not trying to disrespect your knowledge. It’s just we don’t know each other.” And yes, I’m sure he’s been blamed, yelled/cursed at for things that WEREN’T his fault because he didn’t ask every detail. So I got where he was coming from.

Was just sharing something I got a chuckle from. Actually, the one thing he commented on was the barrel crown. I indicated I wanted it recessed. I just prefer Recessed crazy and. And he asked, “you sure you want Recessed over 11 degree?” I told him yes, I was sure and just prefer them. (Being the only reason it’s an 11 degree crown is because they didn’t use 12 degree, or 17 degree, or whatever degree, FIRST, LOL!). But I said to him I simply preferred them Recessed and what some believe of barrel crowning is ridiculous. At that point I think he kinda got it, because he chuckled and said, “well, yeah… there’s no accuracy difference, just easier to clean.” I am glad he’s so thorough. And prompt! He sent me an invoice with all the detail within a minute of hanging up. I appreciated that. I’ll definitely deal with him again.

I think I've bought 2 rifles and a half dozen barrels from him many years ago.

Each transaction was smooth from my perspective. I think I still have 4 Mcgowen barrels, very pleased with them, but these were purchased over a dozen years ago.

James is good and very easy to work with. Don't know that I'll build another anytime soon but he will be the first contact should I decide to.

Pretty sure I am going to order a new Criterion from him next week. As you said, it comes down to price. I have had one McGowan and had to send back to get replaced. The last 3"s of the bore looked like a cheese grater.

I just ordered a Criterion from NSS. Should be here this week. Going to try my first barrel swap on a Savage model 12.

Was hoping to be doing the same this spring with a new barrel only now facing a life interruption. One being to give up my PT job at the range to play summer school teacher to a grandchild. So that will eliminate my source of disposable income and put a crimp in my gun spending. Last year that averaged about $1500.00 a month spend money.

I have a crIterion on my m1, tack driver at 500+ yards, out shoots me. Tim

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Originally Posted by astjp2

I have a crIterion on my m1, tack driver at 500+ yards, out shoots me. Tim

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Yes, Criterion is probably the most used aftermarket barrel by Savage owners. Considering they are for all intent & purpose the Button Rifled version of Kreiger Barrels. And remember Frank worked at Kreiger even many years before he & Traci Bartlein left Kreiger to start Bartlein Barrels. So, yeah…. Savage guys are quite fond of Criterion.

Question on decision for the Criterion barrel over the Shilen barrel from NSS? I was pondering the Shilen on mine.

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Originally Posted by KMW1954

Question on decision for the Criterion barrel over the Shilen barrel from NSS? I was pondering the Shilen on mine.

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I’ve already used Shillen. That is what the Criterion is replacing. As I had indicated, I very much wanted to try McGowen & was even about to order! But then I got a bad vibe during some emailing back & forth with Dan over there, I decided against it. The Shilen was great, though. It was exceptional quality, the bore was lapped nicely polished & it performed well. My only contention however, it had quite a short throat. I wasn’t even able to load 260 Rem to 2.800” COAL. So I ended up throating myself. In the end, I decided to fall back on Criterion as I know they are proven consistent. I will say, unless you are a hand loader & looking for a custom setup, don’t have any doubt getting the Shilen. I wouldn’t hesitate using them again. However, if I did, I would send them a couple loaded dummy rounds with my longest bullet choice, at the longest COAL I wanted at the lands. But regardless, the Shilen wasn’t available in 260 Ackley Improved (which I was set on), or in 1.7.5 twist (which I was also set on.) Oh, and the Criterion ends up being less expensive for what I wanted as well. Not to mention available in 260AI with a .160” Freebore(VLD or “Match” Chamber)

One gets to a point in all this they simply don’t ask any question. They don’t seek other’s opinions on certain things and do what they want. Go with what your heart says.

I ended up with a Shilen instead when I got my 6BR. Decision? It was in stock and I got it the next week. I do love it. I would not hesitate to get a Criterion either.

I am glad James was so thorough with the questions. He got me exactly what I needed and nothing more. A pleasure to work with.

I've met a quite a few small business folks through my small business. Some don't like to talk (like me), some will bore you to death, and some are so experienced and enthusiastic about the hobby it is hard not to have a long talk with them.

Since this is your thread I hope not to hijack it but I hope to pick your brain and experience. So far the only barrel I have changed is for my Savage, that was another Savage take off that has worked out very well. That is also the barrel I am looking to swap out again with a barrel from NSS. Either a Criterion or a Shilen and still have not decided if I will stay with the 223 or move to the 6ARC. My shooting mentor has talked about freebore but just do not understand how to relate that to NSS and the Shilen barrel. I know they offer a 0 freebore but still unsure what that means to me or the barrel.

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Originally Posted by KMW1954

Since this is your thread I hope not to hijack it but I hope to pick your brain and experience. So far the only barrel I have changed is for my Savage, that was another Savage take off that has worked out very well. That is also the barrel I am looking to swap out again with a barrel from NSS. Either a Criterion or a Shilen and still have not decided if I will stay with the 223 or move to the 6ARC. My shooting mentor has talked about freebore but just do not understand how to relate that to NSS and the Shilen barrel. I know they offer a 0 freebore but still unsure what that means to me or the barrel.

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No, I don’t mind brother. I enjoy how threads kinda “morph” into other topics related to the original. Makes for fun conversation. Here’s a little video the guy does a pretty good job explaining. His number of .5” is a little wonky, but I think he meant that as the the total Throat area. Although Freebore alone is a smaller space. Anyway, he uses a Barrel cut away which really explains it visually. In the end, if you aren’t reloading, you don’t need to worry about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbyv_95gOdU

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Originally Posted by charlie b;512688I

am glad James was so thorough with the questions. He got me exactly what I needed and nothing more. A pleasure to work with.

I've met a quite a few small business folks through my small business. Some don't like to talk (like me), some will bore you to death, and some are so experienced and enthusiastic about the hobby it is hard not to have a long talk with them.

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Yep. James will go off on a tangent and you just ride along.

I just ordered a Criterion 223 1-9 twist today. Got a go gauge also. I don't have that one. All my other rifles are based on the 308 gauge.

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Originally Posted by KMW1954

Since this is your thread I hope not to hijack it but I hope to pick your brain and experience. So far the only barrel I have changed is for my Savage, that was another Savage take off that has worked out very well. That is also the barrel I am looking to swap out again with a barrel from NSS. Either a Criterion or a Shilen and still have not decided if I will stay with the 223 or move to the 6ARC. My shooting mentor has talked about freebore but just do not understand how to relate that to NSS and the Shilen barrel. I know they offer a 0 freebore but still unsure what that means to me or the barrel.

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The SAAMI website is a wealth of information. There is a glossary of terms in there for most things gun related as well as cartridge specs, including both ammo and chamber drawings.

There are several parts to the throat. The first part is a straight dia section called the freebore. Then there can be a tapered section from the freebore to the start of the rifling called the leade. Then there is the start of the rifling, usually tapering from groove to bore dia at an angle of some amount, ~2 deg. For example, the 6mmCM has a freebore of 0.18" and tapered section of 0.12" (angle of tapered rifling is 1 1/2deg). Note, it does not have a leade, only freebore.

Manufacturers do not have to follow SAAMI standards. My 9mm pistol has no freebore or leade or tapered section of rifling (it also has a polygonal bore). SAAMI says it should have a 2deg taper. My .45acp has no freebore or leade, but, does have a taper to the rifling, just like SAAMI says it should have.

If the barrel mfg (or gunsmith) reams the chamber to SAAMI specs you can look up the dimensions. But, a chambering reamer can be made with no throat section and the rest done with a separate reamer. Some of the popular cartridges in precision or bench rest shooting use non-standard reamers. Frequently undersized necks or different throat dimensions. The gunsmith or barrel maker should be able to tell you how they cut the barrel. NSS lists different neck diameters on some of the cartridges for that reason. There are also slightly different chambers, like the .308 Palma. The .223 Wylde (IIRC) is a .223 with a different throat.

Or, if a person wants more freebore or tapered section you can get throat reamers for the common calibers. Brownell's sells a number of them.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Anyway, he uses a Barrel cut away which really explains it visually. In the end, if you aren’t reloading, you don’t need to worry about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbyv_95gOdU

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Thanks Dave. I did watch and I know what it is I guess I just don't know how to measure what I need and how to relate that to the barrel. With the 223 barrel I am using now I am seating out a 69gr bullet to 1.190" CBTO

NSS offers throating for Shilen barrels but not Criterion. My Shilen 7BR was throated to dummy rounds I provided.

For cast bullet shooting knowing the throat is important. The easiest to measure is to use a 'pound cast'. A slug of lead (sometimes a slightly larger dia bullet) is placed in the chamber neck. Then a rod (I use a brass one with taper around it) is used to pound the slug into the throat. Not all the way, just enough to get it into the main rifling. Then use a rod from the muzzle (again, protected from the bore with tape) and tap it back out. Then you have an impression of the throat.

But, bullet OAL is a different thing. The eld type bullets have a long ogive section so they are seated well out if you want to touch the lands. I've had some, like the 155 Hornady ELD, in my .308 that cannot be seated out far enough to touch while the 155 Bergers were just fine with a slight jam. The .223 I could seat the 77gn SMK's just fine but the Hornady 75gn ELD's were too long for the mag. And that was after 4000 rounds.

The CBTO is a decent way to determine where each bullet will touch the lands. Using the dummy case and seat it until the bullet touches, then use the gage to measure the CBTO. It gives a good reference point for your rifle. One thing to keep in mind is the bore on rifles may be different. My bore on the .308 is 0.302". So the CBTO I measure will not be the same as yours.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Just ordered a new barrel. Decided on Criterion from James at NSS. Came down to price. Just couldn’t pass up their deal. First time I’ve spoken to James. It was interesting, funny at some points. Now look, I understand he doesn’t know me, and as the business, he’s making sure that the customer has everything they need. But I almost wanted to say a couple times in a nice way, “look my friend, I know we haven’t met, but trust me I know what I’m doing.” Of course I wouldn’t do that, LOL! Like I said, it was just kinda funny. He repeated a couple times.. “are you sure it’s a Small Shank?” LOL. Yeees.. I’m sure partner!:rolleyes: And he made a couple comments a bit off the cuff, at one point saying “that seems strange”. Anyway, nice guy. So I ordered a 28” Stainless 260 AI with .160” freebore. 1:7.5” twist.


I came so close to ordering a McGowen, but had an email conversation with someone there the day of, and got a red flag during. I’ve been doing all this long enough to know if you sense something wrong leave it be. Bit of a shame. I really did want to give McGowen a try. But I know the Criterion will perform, so I’m happy.

Now the 12-20 week wait for the barrel, LOL! Good thing I’m patient.

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I want to do something similar but in .264 wm, I was thinking VLD’s and a 1:7.5 twist. What are your thoughts Dave?

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Originally Posted by astjp2

I want to do something similar but in .264 wm, I was thinking VLD’s and a 1:7.5 twist. What are your thoughts Dave?

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Absolutely! The 264WinMag is another prime example of when I have said there ain’t nothin’ new under the sun. The 6.5PRC isn’t some ground breaking NEW cartridge. The 264WM can handle the heaviest & longest 6.5’s available. And actually take advantage of the high weight for caliber & super high BC of the 150gr+ pills now. (Unlike pretending they work in a Creedmoor case, meandering along at 2400fps??) No, the 264WM will actually send them with adequate velocity. Although, if I was building one, I look to a bit more Freebore. Personally though, I’m not a Magnum/Small caliber guy. But then, I’m not a Magnum LARGE caliber kinda guy either, LOL! However, I think your idea is fantastic if you have the interest. I HATE that the market is trying to bully us into buying certain calibers… the industry would have been super happy with me just getting a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel… (I’m sure James would have happy as well, had I simply ordered one of the 6.5CM’s he has on shelf;)) But the industry would be happy if I started believing the nonsense like so many others are now. For instance, how a guy tests & claims a load of 142gr SMK over 41.8gr (just over MAX load), of H4350 was good for 2660fps in a 27” barrel at one testing, but fast forward to 2019, he tests the same 142gr SMK pill over just 41.5gr of the same H4350 this time, (max load), and in a 26” barrel this go. And low & behold…. he NOW claims it managed to do 2770fps! Explain that one! Oh… and you can bet someone will try!

Anyway… don’t let the industry or FORUMS make your decision for you. Don’t ever feel you must do what everyone else does. Why? So you to can grab FACTORY ammo off the shelf (which is ALL loaded slower than they’re saying because, oh yeah! PHYSICS!) Do your own research, and go with what you have the interest in.

This is assuming of course, you have a firm understanding of & do reload your own ammunition. Because obviously, if you must rely on off the shelf ammunition, then it’s just smart to stick to what’s popular. Even if you do get accused of having a Man BUN! LOL! :tea:

_.

I'm shooting 139 gr Lapua Scenars and 140 gr Berger VLD's from my 6.5x284. It has a 1:8 twist McGowen barrel on it, and I haven't had any issues with bullets stabilizing.

I started off shooting 142 gr Sierra matchkings, but kept getting single flyers in each group. From talking to a guy at Bruno's Shooters Supply ( I used to live near there), he suggested I switch to the Scenars. My lone flyer issue went away.

Moral of the story, I don't know what bullet you want to shoot, but you may not need that 1:7.5 twist.

Oh Good grief! You guys completely missed my point! :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do reaching certain speeds.. And even less to do with barrel twist!

Each is free to take from any of this whatever he may. God bless

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Oh Good grief! You guys completely missed my point! :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do reaching certain speeds.. And even less to do with barrel twist!

But no matter.. I’m not speaking to those with no ears to listen. http://www.savageshooters.com/blob:h...8-b9466269bfdf Each is free to take from any of this whatever he may. God bless

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If that was directed towards me?

I was replying to astjp2's comment about barrel twist. Nothing to do with your post at all.

I'm sorry for upsetting you.

I will refrain from contributing further.

No, sorry Slim. Not meant at you.. and not meant as a rebuke at all. The barrel twist comment was simply an afterthought. Also, no one upset me. I’m just talking like I would in a conversation. Not upset at anything. So please don’t stop replying on my account :tea: I did delete the “ears to listen comment.” I was trying to make a joke, but it didn’t work. Sorry it sounded like I was annoyed. Never was & all is well.

“Text” is the DEVIL in regards to misidentification of a person’s inflection, Ya know? LOL!

That's why I don't even send many posts that I compose. No matter how I word it, it doesn't come across well.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Absolutely! The 264WinMag is another prime example of when I have said there ain’t nothin’ new under the sun. The 6.5PRC isn’t some ground breaking NEW cartridge. The 264WM can handle the heaviest & longest 6.5’s available. And actually take advantage of the high weight for caliber & super high BC of the 150gr+ pills now. (Unlike pretending they work in a Creedmoor case, meandering along at 2400fps??) No, the 264WM will actually send them with adequate velocity. Although, if I was building one, I look to a bit more Freebore. Personally though, I’m not a Magnum/Small caliber guy. But then, I’m not a Magnum LARGE caliber kinda guy either, LOL! However, I think your idea is fantastic if you have the interest. I HATE that the market is trying to bully us into buying certain calibers… the industry would have been super happy with me just getting a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel… (I’m sure James would have happy as well, had I simply ordered one of the 6.5CM’s he has on shelf;)) But the industry would be happy if I started believing the nonsense like so many others are now. For instance, how a guy tests & claims a load of 142gr SMK over 41.8gr (just over MAX load), of H4350 was good for 2660fps in a 27” barrel at one testing, but fast forward to 2019, he tests the same 142gr SMK pill over just 41.5gr of the same H4350 this time, (max load), and in a 26” barrel this go. And low & behold…. he NOW claims it managed to do 2770fps! Explain that one! Oh… and you can bet someone will try!

Anyway… don’t let the industry or FORUMS make your decision for you. Don’t ever feel you must do what everyone else does. Why? So you to can grab FACTORY ammo off the shelf (which is ALL loaded slower than they’re saying because, oh yeah! PHYSICS!) Do your own research, and go with what you have the interest in.

This is assuming of course, you have a firm understanding of & do reload your own ammunition. Because obviously, if you must rely on off the shelf ammunition, then it’s just smart to stick to what’s popular. Even if you do get accused of having a Man BUN! LOL! :tea:

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Dave, we should chat so I can get an idea on extending the freebore before I order a barrel. I agree with your comments bot I am not 100% certain on twist. Tim

If you’re not certain, go 1:8.

Ok, that’s easy

Today marks Week #4 on barrel lead time. Good thing I still have things to get done before I swap it out. I still need to machine the new Recoil Lug. I’m making one from 6AL4V Titanium, which will be the first one I’ve ever seen. Can’t even find a Ti Recoil Lug for sale aside for the ones made for the Tikka T3. But nothing for Savage Model 110 or Rem. Model 700. I got the Ti plate which is like 8mm/5/16”. I wanted to make one about that thickness, unfortunately I found out the barrel isn’t threaded deep enough, and will only accept 1/4” max thickness. Which is fine. I’m going to do another thread with pics when I make it, so this is just fyi, but one great thing is my Chassis is set up to allow any size Recoil Lug. I mean ANY! The recess for the lug is widened beyond the Action’s 1.305” diameter, and it’s under a tube handguard so it’s not even seen. I can make the Lug like a 1.5”L X 1.75”W rectangle if I want, LOL! J/K Of course I’m going to shape it accordingly. One thing, I’m trying to decide how I want to attach it to the Magnetic Chuck for my Surface Grinder Attachment. Wondering if I should just dab some crazy glue each cut/test, or should I make a steel holding jig for the Titanium part? Decisions, decisions.

Have seen stuff get shot from a surface grinder. The stainless I used was not quite magnetic enough :) I'd make a stop plate from plain steel. Sides would be optional. Best would be to have a full jig of steel. Maybe countersink a screw that will go up into a tapped hole in the titanium part. Still, a 'stop lip' would be a good safety item.

I have a stop that is removable from the Mag Chuck Charlie. That was part of the design when I built it. But I can’t just lay the Ti part flat on the Chuck against the stop. It either needs glued down, or I’ll need to make a jig that acts as a mini “Vice”, which is likely what I’ll do.

This isn’t a giant floor mount Surface Grinder. It’s an SGA… (Surface Grinder Attachment). They are extremely popular with Knifemakers.. (Like me, LOL!) The design was first made by a Knifemaker/machinist named Travis Wuertz. He is a genius! And was actually featured on an episode of that show “Forged in Fire” on the History channel. He sells his design, the SGA-1 for like $2000. Well, some many years ago when I started my Knifemaking I couldn’t afford that, but I was at that point getting pretty heavy into machining/fabrication, along with the Knifemaking. So from his pictures & videos online PLUS my pretty incredible “search” ability, I was able to find all the special parts used in his design. And then from those pics/vids I was able to recreate his design almost exactly, and at a fraction of the price. Cost me about $250 back then. So I made a thread on a very popular Knife Making Forum for fellow DIY’ers to follow, and the rest is as they say.. History. I got a little “On-Line” recognition for about 12 minutes, LOL! Ya know, I was “That guy who figured it out” kinda thing. But then of course, several guys… (Money Greedy Douchers, as I call them), started making and selling them which I was completely against! Because Travis’ is still the best, just not everyone can just pony up $2K. And ehh, obviously can’t really patent a tool like that I guess. Same thing goes for my 2x72 belt grinder. They cost at least $2500 for a really nicely equipped unit with a powerful motor & using a Variable Frequency Drive. So instead, I built mine because that’s what I do. And yes… I have pics of building them & videos using them. LOL

That was what I figured. Which is why I mentioned the steel holding plate and a screw into the Ti part. A screw hole in a recoil lug won't hurt anything and would allow you to 'clamp' it to the steel fixture. Or, just make the Ti part a little larger and put the screw hole in the area you will cut off later.

Well, it’s nary a new dealing for me. I’ve surfaced countless blades & other metal objects, and never had one remove itself from the chuck. The Magnets used are are N52 Neodymium bars. Each magnet strip is 10mmX60mm & 5mm thick and can hold like 40lbs each. The chuck uses 11 of these magnets! Pulling anything from the chuck is impossible in a straight pull. Objects must be slide off to break the tension. I decided to make a jig. I started today, machined a steel flat roughly square at about 1.710”x 1.690”. Also machined two 1/4” thick aluminum bars to serve as uprights on either side. These will be drilled & screwed to either side of the 1.710” length via 4mm cap screws. The steel I used is just over 1/4”, so 4mm threaded holes will work nicely. Would have rather used 3mm, but I happen to have several 4mm Allen cap screws, so… meh.

That's the problem, isn't it. Sliding of the workpiece. Which is what the grinding wheel/belt is trying to do to it.

Sounds like you have it under control.