Problems cutting, threading, and recrowning a barrel.

A barrel crown and lands at the end of the barrel really do matter. I cut a 308 barrel down to 18 1/4” and used an annular cutting jig to rethread the barrel. After I finished crowning, I took the rifle out and shot it. Cold bore shots were dead on, but as I continued shooting the bullets would drift left.
After messing with different bullet weights and powder charges I finally discovered that I had messed up the lands at the end of the barrel because I used the bore guide wrong on the annular cutter.
I swapped barrels to a barrel I know is good and I’m back to consistent groups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unless you are an owner of a gun lathe and know how to use it let a good gun smith do it for you

You're conflating different operations.
A piloted annular cutter, followed by a similarly piloted threading die can deliver "acceptable" results for such things as slant brakes on AK's where it's not possible to remove the barrel nor a traditional lathe operation (been there, done that). I'd never use one where very tight tolerances are needed.

Crowning is different tooling. You need an 11 degree, or flat piloted reamer. What did you use?

The problem with annular cutter pilots is two-fold, they're solid- and don't come in half-thou sizes at minimum to get a precise fit in the bore; one that's too tight will score/damage the lands, too loose will result in chatter, threads that aren't concentric to the bore.

Crowning "by hand" can be done with the correct tooling, Manson offers a couple of kits that will do this.

educations cost money, how much did this cost, and what did you learn ?
crown angle can be anything. most of my rifles a FLAT.

I've cut and crowned with a hacksaw, a file and a round headed brass screw with lapping compound chucked up in a drill, I've also crowned with a Lee case length gauge and cutter. Never any problem with the results.

i guess all lathe makers and gunsmith should quit.....
or
we don't all have the same quality standards.

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Originally Posted by big honkin jeep

I've cut and crowned with a hacksaw, a file and a round headed brass screw with lapping compound chucked up in a drill, I've also crowned with a Lee case length gauge and cutter. Never any problem with the results.

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I was told by a very prominent gunsmith years ago that you never use a piloted cutter on a crown.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

I was told by a very prominent gunsmith years ago that you never use a piloted cutter on a crown.

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Uh huh....

To each their own.
Perhaps he could explain to you why it's fine to use piloted reamers to cut a chamber, but not a piloted cutter to do a crown?

Both PTG and Manson manufacture piloted HSS, 11-degree cutters for a reason. Much faster than re-setting my compound to 11 degrees and cutting with a turning tool.

most precision rifle makers DO NOT USE PILOTS on reamers.
the bore is taper bored to match the reamer.
all done where the throat is dialed in.
piloted reamers for the masses...NOT FOR PRECISION WORK.
its been probably 15 years or more since i used a pilot to cut a chamber.
this is a savage forum, so yes it probably works at this level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

Uh huh....

To each their own.
Perhaps he could explain to you why it's fine to use piloted reamers to cut a chamber, but not a piloted cutter to do a crown?

Both PTG and Manson manufacture piloted HSS, 11-degree cutters for a reason. Much faster than re-setting my compound to 11 degrees and cutting with a turning tool.

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Thanks for feedback. I have a lathe and am comfortable with the normal methods. And I’ve also used a hacksaw and file before as well. I had never tried an annular cutter, so I gave it a shot. As tobnpr stated, the pilots were too tight and didn’t float as freely as needed. My plan for the barrel is to put it on my lathe and cut it back past the damaged lands. Lesson learned.
I learn by experimenting, which is why I have savage rifles - they are easy to experiment with. What I really enjoy doing is finding ways for average people to take cheap rifles, perform garage shop work, and make them shoot very accurately. I have more time than money, and I continue to learn along the way.
I really appreciate everyone’s feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

most precision rifle makers DO NOT USE PILOTS on reamers.
the bore is taper bored to match the reamer.
all done where the throat is dialed in.
piloted reamers for the masses...NOT FOR PRECISION WORK.
its been probably 15 years or more since i used a pilot to cut a chamber.
this is a savage forum, so yes it probably works at this level.

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Sure thing, boss.
I'm in absolute awe of your expertise.
Now, you can go brag to someone who gives a sh**.

I pre-bore, and use a flush system.
I still prefer a snug-fitting pilot to eliminate chatter.
Despite your opinion, MOST professionals still use piloted reamers unless they're chambering with a specific CNC setup.

I mean, jeez...
What HACKS they are at McMillan Rifles... I'm sure you've got it all over those guys, they have no clue what they're doing.
Can you BELIEVE they're chambering barrels between centers, with a PILOTED reamer- you'd better call 'em up and tell them the RIGHT way to do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adsz...&index=35&t=3s

You're nothing but a effing blowhard shi*head.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

Sure thing, boss.
I'm in absolute awe of your expertise.
Now, you can go brag to someone who gives a sh**.

I pre-bore, and use a flush system.
I still prefer a snug-fitting pilot to eliminate chatter.
Despite your opinion, MOST professionals still use piloted reamers unless they're chambering with a specific CNC setup.

I mean, jeez...
What HACKS they are at McMillan Rifles... I'm sure you've got it all over those guys, they have no clue what they're doing.
Can you BELIEVE they're chambering barrels between centers, with a PILOTED reamer- you'd better call 'em up and tell them the RIGHT way to do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adsz...&index=35&t=3s

You're nothing but a effing blowhard shi*head.

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I ignore him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i have no chatter with no pilot...
maybe you are doing something wrong,
i did not say ALL gunsmiths, I DID SAY PRECISION RIFLE MAKERS.
not all gunsmiths fall into the precision catagory
i am a national champion with a rifle i built myself WITHOUT A PILOT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

Sure thing, boss.
I'm in absolute awe of your expertise.
Now, you can go brag to someone who gives a sh**.

I pre-bore, and use a flush system.
I still prefer a snug-fitting pilot to eliminate chatter.
Despite your opinion, MOST professionals still use piloted reamers unless they're chambering with a specific CNC setup.

I mean, jeez...
What HACKS they are at McMillan Rifles... I'm sure you've got it all over those guys, they have no clue what they're doing.
Can you BELIEVE they're chambering barrels between centers, with a PILOTED reamer- you'd better call 'em up and tell them the RIGHT way to do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adsz...&index=35&t=3s

You're nothing but a effing blowhard shi*head.

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i know you have an issue with big words so i'll spell it out for you
precision rifles are a step above tactical and hunting rifles.
competition rifles that shoot at small targets not large steel plates.
read mc m own ad:
"McMillan Firearms is a 32-year-old manufacturer of hunting and tactical bolt-action rifles."
your version of precision and mine are very different, and i don't have to call you names to get my point across.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

.

I mean, jeez...
What HACKS they are at McMillan Rifles... I'm sure you've got it all over those guys, they have no clue what they're doing.
Can you BELIEVE they're chambering barrels between centers, with a PILOTED reamer- you'd better call 'em up and tell them the RIGHT way to do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adsz...&index=35&t=3s

You're nothing but a effing blowhard shi*head.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

i know you have an issue with big words so i'll spell it out for you
precision rifles are a step above tactical and hunting rifles.
competition rifles that shoot at small targets not large steel plates.
read mc m own ad:
"McMillan Firearms is a 32-year-old manufacturer of hunting and tactical bolt-action rifles."
your version of precision and mine are very different, and i don't have to call you names to get my point across.

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It's the superior way you come across to people that elicits that type of reaction. It should tell you something but, it doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tobnpr

Sure thing, boss.
I'm in absolute awe of your expertise.
Now, you can go brag to someone who gives a sh**.

I pre-bore, and use a flush system.
I still prefer a snug-fitting pilot to eliminate chatter.
Despite your opinion, MOST professionals still use piloted reamers unless they're chambering with a specific CNC setup.

I mean, jeez...
What HACKS they are at McMillan Rifles... I'm sure you've got it all over those guys, they have no clue what they're doing.
Can you BELIEVE they're chambering barrels between centers, with a PILOTED reamer- you'd better call 'em up and tell them the RIGHT way to do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adsz...&index=35&t=3s

You're nothing but a effing blowhard shi*head.

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Tell em' how you really feel !! :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

this is a savage forum, so yes it probably works at this level.

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Maybe an apology would be in order. Or better yet.....Take a hike and let
the door hit you in the azz.

just because this is a savage site , does not mean the world revolves around it. closing your eyes to facts does not change them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

Maybe an apology would be in order. Or better yet.....Take a hike and let
the door hit you in the azz.

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I had a factory 308 barrel that was tight 3” back from the muzzle, I used the “big honkin Jeep” method to go back to clean lands, and it came out just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

i have no chatter with no pilot...
maybe you are doing something wrong,
i did not say ALL gunsmiths, I DID SAY PRECISION RIFLE MAKERS.
not all gunsmiths fall into the precision catagory
i am a national champion with a rifle i built myself WITHOUT A PILOT.

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That’s cool. What did you build the action and barrel out of?

from a truck axle and a chevy block.
pretty poor question..
i said i BUILT the rifle,
i did NOT say i MANUFACTURED the parts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gbflyer

That’s cool. What did you build the action and barrel out of?

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Man, I haven't seen this level of back and forth here for a long time :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

from a truck axle and a chevy block.
pretty poor question..
i said i BUILT the rifle,
i did NOT say i MANUFACTURED the parts.

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Hahahaha. Good one. I thought maybe you were one of those folks who has the stuff to do it all. Thanks for setting me straight[emoji3]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

just because this is a savage site , does not mean the world revolves around it. closing your eyes to facts does not change them.

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Don't confuse "facts" with opinions. Seems your opinions are not supported by actual facts or science.

lets see you prove me wrong
precision rifles not hunting tactical rifles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

Don't confuse "facts" with opinions. Seems your opinions are not supported by actual facts or science.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

lets see you prove me wrong
precision rifles not hunting tactical rifles

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The person making the claims should be the one who provides the proof. Think about it.

You claimed i was wrong.
Where is your proof..
Put up or.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

the person making the claims should be the one who provides the proof. Think about it.

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i proved the ONE SOURCE claimed was not a source of precision rifles, but tactical and hunting rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

The person making the claims should be the one who provides the proof. Think about it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

I

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Nothing but noise.....

How about getting this thread locked

I just added a person in co to my ignore list.

Never had to ignore anyone, regardless of their tenacity, but maybe time to. My guess is the "Covid" thing is working on some different than others and must give them the benefit of the doubt. Let them get the nasty out of their systems.

Anybody that searches "precision" rifles will come up with a list of at least 10 well known manufacturers.
A search of custom rifle builders that do not use reamers with pilots comes back basically empty. I've "ackleyed" a couple of chambers without a pilot but we all know the reamer will follow the original chamber, simple physics. No one should have to prove anything, especially when using subjective terms.

that is how precision rifle chambers are cut.
the bbl is taper bored to match the reamer.
the tapered bore guides the reamer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

I've "ackleyed" a couple of chambers without a pilot but we all know the reamer will follow the original chamber, simple physics. No one should have to prove anything, especially when using subjective terms.

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Mike, You speak of truth and facts. You stated earlier that you were a national champion. Can you give us some facts. What year did you achieve national champion status? Who was the sanctioning body? Discipline? Number of competitors? Remember, I know.

Too bad all smiths didn't have equipment that "tight". They could dial it in at a fraction of a tenth and then use they could use all their old reamers because the pilots wouldn't even touch! Biggest advantage of using no pilot would be to a more effective flushing during operations. The setup for quality chambering is most important. If the lathe won't hold the tolerance, no amount of setup and prebore is going to make the chamber "true". The benefit of more effective flush is probably the biggest advantage, similar to cutting a chamber by hand with frequent cleanings every .010 or .020.
The end result of a "clean", "round", concentric to bore is attainable in more than one way.
The term "precision" is being used pretty loose and actually would be an insult to a bunch of top end smiths who build rifled for a host of competitors and "national champions".

i was pretty clear with the word precision...as in not hunting and not tactical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mnbogboy2

Too bad all smiths didn't have equipment that "tight". They could dial it in at a fraction of a tenth and then use they could use all their old reamers because the pilots wouldn't even touch! Biggest advantage of using no pilot would be to a more effective flushing during operations. The setup for quality chambering is most important. If the lathe won't hold the tolerance, no amount of setup and prebore is going to make the chamber "true". The benefit of more effective flush is probably the biggest advantage, similar to cutting a chamber by hand with frequent cleanings every .010 or .020.
The end result of a "clean", "round", concentric to bore is attainable in more than one way.
The term "precision" is being used pretty loose and actually would be an insult to a bunch of top end smiths who build rifled for a host of competitors and "national champions".

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its been posted before
clue
600 yard benchrest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Mike, You speak of truth and facts. You stated earlier that you were a national champion. Can you give us some facts. What year did you achieve national champion status? Who was the sanctioning body? Discipline? Number of competitors? Remember, I know.

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Attachment 7528

Hey look, some guy in CO isn't being rude anymore. :o