Brass sorting question

Trying something new, for me, that in all my years of loading I have never tried. Never really needed to, but thought it was time I gave it a shot to see if it helped accuracy. These are essentially newby questions, but like I said, I just never bothered with it before, so now it's kinda to see what difference it makes.

So, when I was sorting some 243 brass, (Rem) I was getting weights that varied by as much as 4.5gr on the extreme. I sorted them into "close" groups, within 1gr of each other, ie. xx2.8 along with xx2.4, and xx2.6. Are those the parameters most usually go by, or how close DO YOU sort them by?

Also, if I sort by weight, does brand matter? Seems to me if weights were all similar, brand SHOULDN'T make a lot of difference. I know tolerances of the neck can make some difference, but how much does that vary by brand?

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I'm just a novice but have been a novice for a couple of decades. I sorted a bunch of .308 on a triple beam balance that weighs in grams instead of grains. First I sorted by headstamp and then by weight. I used prepped brass. I cant remember exactly what the average was but when I found it I set he scale for the average weight that most of the brass seemed to weigh. Then I sorted by the ones that were dead on in one pile, the ones that were a little heavier in another, and the ones that were a little lighter in a third pile. I loaded the ones that were in the average pile and got some very good accuracy that seemed better than normal. Maybe not as scientific as some methods but in my casual plinking and hunting experience it did make a difference.

I've sorted by weight and by H20, and sorting by weight is good enough. I correlated H20 to weight and made up my mind that weight sorting will do the job just fine !

For the 243win sorting withing 1 grain is all you need. I have 300 pieces of Winchester 243 cases from a few different lots with a few dozen pcs from factory ammo and their ES is 2.1gr for all of the 300 pcs. I never sorted those. But for a 308win I have 300 pcs of Win brass that's from a few different lots as well with a few dozen from factory ammo and those have an ES of almost 7 grains ! so I sort them into 1gr groups.

Right now I'm in the middle of changing brass because I have 250 of the same lot of Winchester 243 brass which I'll use from now on. the last 300 pcs I used I reloaded 19 times, annealed every 5 and have never scrapped a piece.

Thanks for all the good info. Actually I was sorting by brass weight, and I am NOT shooting 1000yds. I am a hunter, and 300yds is a long shot. Most shots are under 200 by preference. I am looking for top accuracy, obviously, but not bench rest. All my rifles are hunting rifles with sporter weight factory barrels, so bench rest accuracy would only be a pipe dream anyway.

With that said I do know that consistency in the brass makes load development one step easier, as pressures should be very consistent in the group for the same load. Hopefully it will make the "it" load, easier to achieve.

I will add, that I am starting to load a group of 22 out of 50 (new brass), weighed by brass only, and once I shoot it, I will test it by water to see how much different it comes out. I just do not want to waste primers with water, and I don't have any used ones around.

I am a match shooter who shoots 1000+ at matches and I have never weighed a piece of brass and don't plan to start. Use the same headstamp and use quality components. If you are bored or just super curious then keep at it but you would be better use your time at the range than weighing brass.

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Originally Posted by Rob01

I am a match shooter who shoots 1000+ at matches and I have never weighed a piece of brass and don't plan to start. Use the same headstamp and use quality components. If you are bored or just super curious then keep at it but you would be better use your time at the range than weighing brass.

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That's mostly it, looking to see what, if any, difference it makes.

I will check for water after I shoot, then will already have a plug :). We have rain forcasted in the forseeable future (finally) so I have time to kill. No desire to shoot in the rain. I am retired so I have more time than money now.

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Sub MOA at 1000 isn't hard to obtain loading like I do but shooting PRS matches you don't shoot a lot of groups. I usually do it when i have my own time or after a match. I have done it with factory ammo. Laid down after a match and shot 12 rounds into about 8" at just over 1000 yards. Factory 140 AMAX loads. Good enough for me.

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Cleaned some PMs out.

If you are checking capacity on fired brass you probably are not aware that it is a waist of time unless you are certain of the cases external dimensions and that they match exactly to each other.

FYI

Military Long Range sniper cases are sorted by weight and and not volume for practicality and held to two grains weight variation. Also the military considers match grade ammunition to have .003 or less runout as match grade ammunition.

NOTE, 61.24% of Lake City M80 cases fall in a two grain weight variation range and the Long Range M118 cases are selected from this center weight range for the M118LR long range sniper ammunition.

I'm in the process of forming LC M80 7.62 cases to .243 Win and was surprised that the case weight variations were less than new bagged Remington and Winchester brass.

To be honest the LC case were a higher quality and uniformity than the last 200 new cases of Winchester brass I purchased and this is a sad statement about quality control.

I think you gotta' keep things in perspective. Here's my take.

Some things we do to increase precision in an attempt to shoot smaller groups and/or higher scores are likely to produce very small improvements. Proving the results, if any, is essentially impossible for nearly all of us. That's because of the data "noise" inherent in the way we test; i.e. shooting bullets from a gun held by a human in real-world atmosphere.

However, not being able to prove it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. For example, I KNOW that annealing helps my brass to last longer and I THINK/HOPE annealing every time improves my consistency. One I can prove, the other I can't. Sorting brass and bullets fall in the same category and my particular approach doesn't take much extra effort, so I do it.

I shoot F-class so I need a set of 20 rounds, plus a few sighters, to be as similar as practicable and I need to do that three times for each match. So I weight sort brass (and bullets too) into three piles, light, medium, and heavy. Then I load 20 rounds from the light pile plus a few sighters and put that in one group, and so-on.

It's not the very best system because H2O capacity is not exactly the same as case weight. But it's easy and it doesn't waste any brass. Occasionally I find a case or bullet WAY out of bounds and put those few aside as fouling rounds or practice rounds.

This system works for me even though proving the benefits is essentially impossible because the hoped-for improvement is tiny compared with the normal dispersion associated with shooting a rifle in the real world.

There is an added benefit too. Part of winning has to do with confidence and going to a match with my "best stuff" makes me feel good.

Would think weighing bullets would be more productive than weighing the brass. I have found +-1 gr in one box of bullets so try to group together the best I can. Not a precision shooter by no means but after my 100 yard groups were erratic with berger bullets using a sled bed, came back and weighed the rest to find the differences. Am assuming you can still put the same amount of powder in brass that is off +-2 gr so I don't weigh the brass. Is there a web site that shows proof weighing brass actually helps?

Why not simply separate them by shooting groups?

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Originally Posted by bearcatrp

Would think weighing bullets would be more productive than weighing the brass. I have found +-1 gr in one box of bullets so try to group together the best I can. Not a precision shooter by no means but after my 100 yard groups were erratic with berger bullets using a sled bed, came back and weighed the rest to find the differences. Am assuming you can still put the same amount of powder in brass that is off +-2 gr so I don't weigh the brass. Is there a web site that shows proof weighing brass actually helps?

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That was probably due more to the sled bed than the bullets. Shoot them off the bench or bipod.

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Originally Posted by Rob01

Sub MOA at 1000 isn't hard to obtain loading like I do but shooting PRS matches you don't shoot a lot of groups. I usually do it when i have my own time or after a match. I have done it with factory ammo. Laid down after a match and shot 12 rounds into about 8" at just over 1000 yards. Factory 140 AMAX loads. Good enough for me.

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This is what I find funny. Someone that is doing it professional and posts their results and then people argue with them.

I did read a breakdown of something like the top 12 shooters (forget what type) and not one of them agreed on the procedure.

They all had their own take.

What this tells me is that there is a lot of superstition in shooting and said superstition creates confidence and they shoot better.

Me, I am on the pure facts and tech end.

Per Rob01: If he is doing it with just head stamp sorting and is competitive, then anyone else is just fooling themselves that all that other stuff makes a difference


By all means of course do it for yourself, but I would not tell anyone else that its what makes it better, it just may be better for you.

And if you are weighting thins, why would you do it on a beam and not an electronic scale?

Thanks for the kind words RC20 but I don't get too worked up with people who argue. They want to do it their way then they can and spend more time at the bench but I would rather be shooting. Over the years I have learned what steps help and what don't. I don't buy Federal M primers anymore, just use standard 210 or 215s, or deburr the flash holes. Tested both and found no difference in performance or chrono numbers. Some people feel better doing both. If it helps them feel like they have more accurate ammo then all the power to them. So i just throw it out there and it is what it is.

Boy this thing is sprouting roots. I do a lot of stuff to my brass, first time, that a lot call useless, but even if it's in my head, they seem to work.

I have not worked up a load for this rifle since the 70's, but when I did, I was getting 100yd clover leafs with the Sierra 85gr BTHP Gameking bullet (243). Something was working. Thanks for the feedback and opinions. For the record, in the past I never weighed any brass before, so this is a test. This time it is with the Barnes 80gr TTSX, mainly because it is one of the few choices I have to hunt with, here in Kalifornia.

Cartridges cases can vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer. The composition of the metal frequently will differ, the overall length often varies even in new cases from the same manufacturer,and certainly the internal capacity will often be different. Because of these variations you should never mix the case brands, and it is always advisable to not mix case lots. Minor differences like these can vary case capacity, that can translate into variations in pressure and how the loads performs.

The smaller the case capacity the more it will effect chamber pressure, meaning larger magnum cases will be less effected by case volume.

Below the older lot of Lapua .223 brass with 28.0 grains of H2O case capacity will have *6,000 psi increase in chamber pressure over the Lake City case with 30.6 case capacity.
(*Quickload defaults to 28.0 H2O case capacity and your "fired" cases must be checked for H2O capacity)
http://i.imgur.com/LjAQ7L9.jpg

As you can see below there is a reason why people buy Lapua brass and that is because of its uniformity in weight and volume.
(see extreme spread below in case weight variations)

http://i.imgur.com/PExmCCk.jpg


handirifle

I buy a lot of once fired Lake City brass in 5.56 and 7.62 and I form my .243 brass from 7.62 cases and then sort by weight. The 7.62mm, NATO, Ball, Special, M118LR cases are just weight sorted M80 cases and must fall into a 2 grain weight variation range limit. And I also use weight sorted M80 7.62 Lake City cases for my Savage Hog Hunter .308. If this is good enough for military match grade and sniper ammunition its good enough for a old fart who drinks too much coffee and has chronologically gifted eyesight.