Is this a sign of bad accuracy?

All,
Please read the whole thing before commenting. Ok here goes. I finished getting all the part's in for my wife's rifle and put it together. It is a savage 110 (long action) donor action with a 7mm-08 apache gunworks barrel (I believe he uses ER shaw blanks and finishes the crown on them) also have a competition recoil lug in a new boyds laminate stock. The stock is NOT yet bedded but the barrel free floats in the stock until about 1 inch in front of the barrel nut so if you in include the nut id say about the last 2 inches of the barrel are not free floated. I torqued the action screws to about 32inch pounds as that is what is suggested for wood/laminate stocks. I wanted to see what the rifle would do before having the rifle bedded (if it shot nice then I might have simply called it good). Took it to the range with some cheap ammo to start the barrel break-in process. YES, I do believe in breaking a barrel in. I used Hornady American Whitetail 139 Grain Interlock Spire Point ammo. This is their low end budget ammo. I shot the rifle 5 times cleaning in between each shot. Then started some 3 shot groups for the next 6 shots, cleaning in between the groups. I then cleaned the barrel, shot 2 fouling shots and then followed it up with a 4 shot group just to see how the rifle would do. It was BAD. the group was 2inches (at best...forgot my measuring tape) and I definitely did not pull any shots. I am a pretty avid shooter and have 2 other rifles I shoot sub MOA all day long out to 300 yards. The scope is a leupold VX2 which came from another rifle and shot perfectly fine on that rifle so it is not the scope. The bases and rings are good and tightened properly with some lok tite so it's not that. I know there is a ton of variables here.... 1: the rifle is not bedded 2: barrels can sometimes take 50+ shots to stabilize before settling in 3: barrel is not COMPLETELY floated 4: cheap ammo (did not try other ammo)

What I am wanting to know is when a rifle shoots this bad...is there little to no hope to have it go sub MOA after bedding and further shooting on the new barrel with other loads and maybe even a load work up OR could the variables above really contribute to that bad of a group? The rifle is currently with a competent gun smith being pillar bedded. It will be done in 2-3 weeks he said. I then intend to take the remaining box of ammo plus another box of a different brand to see how she shoots. If still not sub MOA, I will try a load work up. I just don't want my wife's expectations to be crushed. She was hoping for a sub 1 MOA rifle as she hunts on a 400 yard field once in a great while. Have any of you seen a rifle go from 2-3inch groups at 100 yards to SUB MOA after being bedded and a load work up?

That American Whitetail may be inexpensive but it is a deer dropping load and shoots well in a lot of guns. I don't think Jim uses Shaw blanks anymore, I could be wrong. Looks like you are an experienced rifleman and you have studied the situation. Based on everything you have said and your barrel was properly torqued I would look into bedding. what laminate stock is it?

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

That American Whitetail may be inexpensive but it is a deer dropping load and shoots well in a lot of guns. I don't think Jim uses Shaw blanks anymore, I could be wrong. Looks like you are an experienced rifleman and you have studied the situation. Based on everything you have said and your barrel was properly torqued I would look into bedding. what laminate stock is it?

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it is a Boyd's prairie dog hunter laminate stock. This is the second barrel I have installed on a savage rifle. I used both a go and no go gauge. I screwed the barrel down on to the go gauge. Then I torqued the nut to 45 foot pounds. There is argument about how savage used something like 75ft/pounds but some say it's too much and 30foot pounds is better. I used 45 on my last rifle and it shoots lights out and hasn't moved yet. Then checked with no go gauge. Bolt would close about 1/4 of the way and then stop. Definitely wouldn't budge after that. After shooting this rifle, I checked all the fired cases and there are no signs of improper head spacing such as case separation or other case stress.

I had a 110 in 30-06 that would not group less than 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards. Checked everything I knew to check, asked a lot of questions, checked some more stuff. Tried a lot of different ammo (with price in mind) and found one it liked. With Federal "PowerShok" 150 grain bullets it would consistently shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yards. One other thing worth noting is I shot a lot of rounds during my search so round count could have played a role as well.

I like your idea of a 7-08 for the spouse. I built a .260 Remington last year for my significant other.
Based on what you reported, my guess is that proper bedding and ammo workup should do you a world of good. My own preference is to have the entire length of the barrel free floated. I can't say how much difference the amount of barrel-to-stock contact you report is going to make, but it probably doesn't improve things.
I do know that I have been very disappointed with new barrel performance only to find that I wasn't feeding the barrels the bullets they like. And I can't always predict which bullet will work. I have some barrels that won't shoot AMAXes. Others produce tiny bug hole groups with them. Likewise with Bergers.
Some factory ammo really works well with some rifles. One of my Savages shoots tiny groups with Hornady Zombie Max ammo. Who knew?
Mostly though, it's hit and miss. It can take time and can be frustrating.
It sounds as if you're doing the right thing.
Good luck.

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Originally Posted by jerry shaw

I like your idea of a 7-08 for the spouse. I built a .260 Remington last year for my significant other.
Based on what you reported, my guess is that proper bedding and ammo workup should do you a world of good. My own preference is to have the entire length of the barrel free floated. I can't say how much difference the amount of barrel-to-stock contact you report is going to make, but it probably doesn't improve things.
I do know that I have been very disappointed with new barrel performance only to find that I wasn't feeding the barrels the bullets they like. And I can't always predict which bullet will work. I have some barrels that won't shoot AMAXes. Others produce tiny bug hole groups with them. Likewise with Bergers.
Some factory ammo really works well with some rifles. One of my Savages shoots tiny groups with Hornady Zombie Max ammo. Who knew?
Mostly though, it's hit and miss. It can take time and can be frustrating.
It sounds as if you're doing the right thing.
Good luck.

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I was thinking this as well. I just have never shot that bad before BUT I have not owned that many rifles either. I have owned 3 factory rifles, and now 2 semi custom savages. All 3 factory rifles shot 1.5MOA or better no matter which ammo I used. The first savage I built had a criterion match grade barrel in a B&C aluminum bedblock stock and shoots 1MOA with factory core lokts (only factory ammo I tried) and .5MOA with my handloads out to 400 yards (furthest I tested). I knew that not bedding her rifle would probably cause issue but I did not expect 2-3inch groups. I was thinking it would hit 1.5inch groups at worst. I just wanted to see if others thought there was still a "possibility" for sub MOA accuracy OR basically, I am wasting my time witha rifle that started this bad, and that it would likely would never reach SUB moa performance even with load work up and bedding. it sounds like there is still a good chance for a SUB 1 MOA rifle!

First thing I would do is make sure the entire barrel is floated and that the tang is floated as well. Just about every boyds stock I have put on has required inletting around the tang area for proper floating. Since everything else has been checked I would make sure all the harmonics issues were resolved before I went any further.

Definitely remove wood to be sure the barrel and nut too is floated, and that the recoil lug does not touch on the sides or bottom. You can easily drill out the receiver screw holes to install pillars (lamp rod, plumbing fitting, etc). All this should take less than an hour. Takes a little longer to bed it, and that should put the stock questions to rest; especially when the weather changes and you begin to worry about the wood.

My 7mm-08 is very particular of the bullets. I started with Core Lokts. These wouldn't group any better than 2+" at 100 yds. I now shoot Sierra 140 gr BTSP and get groups under 2" at 200 yds.

Try different brands of ammunition. Your barrel may not like the Hornady ammunition. Before wasting any more ammunition, I'd go ahead and bed the action, making sure the barrel and tang are fully floated, THEN look for the most accurate ammunition the rifle will shoot.

like gacop said. bout the only thing i have learned for sure after 40yrs of reloading......nothing can make a barrel "like" some ammo/bullets. try different ammo, or bullets if you handload.

I have 3 savage rifles, a LRH in 25/06, a LRH in 260 Rem and a 111 in 7mm rem mag. Had a 338 win mag that would not shoot anything and traded it for the 7mm. The 25/06 shoots 1 load and only 1 load, but it shoots it extremely good. Took a long time reloading to find it. The 260 did not shoot at all and I put a different barrel on it, shoots great now. The 7mm is a work in progress yet. Today I think I have found a couple loads with 150 grain bullets that will work. You have to find the right bullet/powder combo and seating depth. And even then I am not impressed with savage barrels.

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Originally Posted by Bigeclipse

Have any of you seen a rifle go from 2-3inch groups at 100 yards to SUB MOA after being bedded and a load work up?

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Yes, I have! In fact, I owned the rifle. I picked up a Remington 700 Classic that had been bedded nicely and had trigger work done for the cost of the Leupold VX-3 scope that was on it. I found out quickly why. First range trip with Nosler BTs gave me 3" groups @ 100 yards. The Bts may not be the most accurate in every rifle but they are usually pretty good in most. When I found what it liked, I shot 5 honest, perfect clover leaf .3"groups. Fellow that was watching offered me what I paid and I kept the scope. It took a lot of rounds to find the right combination. Found several loads to get me in the 1-1.5" area but it was primer and brass that got me to .3"