Barrel change: Help me in making the right choice for barrel and tools

I’m thinking buying everything from NSS as I heard a lot of good things.
I’m considering swapping the factory barrel on my 308 Savage 10FP that is currently sitting in B&C Medalist A2 stock. My current set-up shoots consistently 0.5 to .75 moa with my hand loads. My goal is to go under a consistent 0.5 moa for a max of shooting distance of 500 yards. I wish I could end up with a 0.25 moa gun (who know, maybe I will), but I know that no barrel can guarantee this kind of accuracy.


Barrel Choice:
I’m hesitating between the Shilen Chrome Moly and the Criterion barrel.
1.What’s the finish on the Shilen Chrome Moly? Will it match the mat black finish of the Savage 10FP? If not, or if it’s a shiny blue finish, I might as well go with Criterion stainless steel barrel (the contrast should be better)
2. I heard the Shilen Chrome Moly is not hand lapped. But the accuracy of both should be very similar. Do you confirm?
3. which contour would fit my set-up, without the need of sanding the barrel channel of the stock?
I believe it would be Small Shank Varmint. Please confirm.


Recoil lug: Which one should I get?
(NSS) Precision Ground Heavy Duty or (NSS) Squared and Trued Barrel Nut. Honestly I can tell the difference. At the same time both seems to be stainless steel. So at the end, this will not match the finish of the rifle.


Tools needed: Which one of these I don’t have to buy
(NSS) Barrel Nut Wrench $25
(NSS) Action Wrench $60
(NSS) Vise Jaw Inserts. Which one do I need? Flat gripping surfaces for $40 or Round gripping surfaces for $48
My thoughts are that the (NSS) Vise Jaw Inserts might not be required (unless you tell me otherwise) as I can always use 2 pieces of wood, covered in blankets.

I will also need to by a vise. I suppose a cheap one will do.
Go-no go gage: I’m thinking just using a factory ammo as a go, and then one of my once fired brass as a no go.



Thanks in advance for all your inputs.

I will follow this thread as I am in a similar position. Building a rifle from the ground up and have many of the same questions that you do.

Regarding Shilen, I have some comment. I have a Shilen Chrome Moly barrel on a Ruger 22-250. I had a gunsmith order the barrel and paid extra to have it hand lapped at Shilen. Barrel shoots OK but I now own a borescope and I would be if this barrel was hand lapped. Too many reamer marks. A Shilen stainless drop in barrel is high on my list but being stainless, I know it will be hand lapped.

Criterion varmint should do nicely. The Criterion I have is a real shooter and has a nice smooth bore that cleans very easily. that's my preference.

You will need a "Barrel Nut Wrench" no matter what. You can either get the action wrench, or the vice inserts and a vice, or both. Many people will use the action wrench and secure the wrench block in their vice. As for vice inserts I just use a couple of chunks of pine 2x4.

As to the NSS heavy duty ground lug and NSS trued nut, if you are getting one you really should get both as they work together to ensure a nice true engagement to the action. I recommend getting both.

As to a gauge, if this is your first barrel swap, get a go-gauge for your caliber. Then add a pc or 2 of scotch tape to the base of the gauge to create a no-go gauge. There are several threads here discussing this technique and some youtube videos showing step by step barrel swaps.

Hope some of that helps.

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I wish I could end up with a 0.25 moa gun (who know, maybe I will), but I know that no barrel can guarantee this kind of accuracy.

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Kevin, I think all of us would love to have a 0.25 moa rifle @ 500 to 600 yards. I personally have shot several 0.500 moa groups @ 600 yards and have seen a "few" shoot 0.25 groups at 600.

I have a Savage 10FCP out of the box that will shoot the same groups. I haven't change anything but tweak the trigger a little. Tweaking your loads and trigger time is one of the best thing you can do to improve your groups. To this date one of the highest scores I have shot @ 600 is with my plain stock FCP shooting factory ammo!

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Go-no go gage: I’m thinking just using a factory ammo as a go, and then one of my once fired brass as a no go

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Rent, borrow, or buy the go/no go gauges. IMO it's the only way to go. Also, two pieces of wood has been covered many times on this forum. It works just as good as any barrel vise.

Just my .02 , Dennis

When you order from Jim, do as much of it at once as you can afford. Start with the action vice, it costs the most to ship. It's not Jim's ripping you off, he's a great guy by the way ... the vice weighs a ton. You'll be sorry (like I was) if you buy it by itself.

The recoil lug and nut aren't essential, but they are quality pieces and do lend a bit of confidence to a build. Look around here and you'll see a picture or two of a blued action and barrel with stainless lug and nut. It's quite an elegant look, kind of like a two-toned 1911, IMHO. You'll be fine either way, and the very best thing about building your own, is you can make it exactly how you like it.

if your chamber (action) is not true then the recoil lug is worthless,no matter how good it is..Everything had to be a perfect fit or you will get twisting,etc...only my thoughts...not anyone else..

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Originally Posted by acemisser

if your chamber (action) is not true then the recoil lug is worthless,no matter how good it is..Everything had to be a perfect fit or you will get twisting,etc...only my thoughts...not anyone else..

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Worthless, aside from the fact it keeps the whole thing from smacking you in the face shortly after applying a critical amount of rearward pressure on the trigger! :)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

Criterion varmint should do nicely. The Criterion I have is a real shooter and has a nice smooth bore that cleans very easily. that's my preference.

You will need a "Barrel Nut Wrench" no matter what. You can either get the action wrench, or the vice inserts and a vice, or both. Many people will use the action wrench and secure the wrench block in their vice. As for vice inserts I just use a couple of chunks of pine 2x4.

As to the NSS heavy duty ground lug and NSS trued nut, if you are getting one you really should get both as they work together to ensure a nice true engagement to the action. I recommend getting both.

As to a gauge, if this is your first barrel swap, get a go-gauge for your caliber. Then add a pc or 2 of scotch tape to the base of the gauge to create a no-go gauge. There are several threads here discussing this technique and some youtube videos showing step by step barrel swaps.

Hope some of that helps.

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What he says, as to the vice inserts I have a pair and use them a lot but not to change barrels. I use the action wrench and put it in the vise.

I think as you travel down the road of this addiction you will learn that those shooting those .25 groups have good equipment but could most likely take your gun and shoot better with it than you. A lot of it is the concentration and habits they have built up. You can have the best shooting weapon made and if you haven't practiced and developed good shooting tech you will not shoot groups like that consistently.

Ditto on working the load and trigger time. There share more Savages that can shoot .25 moa than there are shooters who can .

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I think as you travel down the road of this addiction you will learn that those shooting those .25 groups have good equipment but could most likely take your gun and shoot better with it than you. A lot of it is the concentration and habits they have built up. You can have the best shooting weapon made and if you haven't practiced and developed good shooting tech you will not shoot groups like that consistently.

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Ditto on working the load and trigger time. There share more Savages that can shoot .25 moa than there are shooters who can .

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I totally agree with the above 2 statements. Several years ago there was a person shooting his stock Savage rifle. He had trouble holding an eight inch group at 100 yards. He handed me the rifle and told me to shoot it as he was going to junk it. My first three shots were within a dime. He was so upset he loaded up his equipment and left.

Most Savages are very accurate out of the box. Bed the action, tweak the trigger, find the load the rifle likes, and all that's left is trigger time. I know several who shoot stock Savage rifles in competition and do very well. Any thing you do to the rifle should improve the performance.

I wouldn't rush and start buying parts for your rifle. It should shoot 168's and 175's pretty accurately as is.

JMO, Dennis

Just for kicks, a picture of my stock 308 FCP shooting factory load 168 A-Maxs

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/DSC02378.jpg

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

Criterion varmint should do nicely. The Criterion I have is a real shooter and has a nice smooth bore that cleans very easily. that's my preference.

You will need a "Barrel Nut Wrench" no matter what. You can either get the action wrench, or the vice inserts and a vice, or both. Many people will use the action wrench and secure the wrench block in their vice. As for vice inserts I just use a couple of chunks of pine 2x4.

As to the NSS heavy duty ground lug and NSS trued nut, if you are getting one you really should get both as they work together to ensure a nice true engagement to the action. I recommend getting both.

As to a gauge, if this is your first barrel swap, get a go-gauge for your caliber. Then add a pc or 2 of scotch tape to the base of the gauge to create a no-go gauge. There are several threads here discussing this technique and some youtube videos showing step by step barrel swaps.

Hope some of that helps.

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Ditto!!! Definitely go with both nut and lug.

Guys….
I’m not a newbie and I don’t plan to change the barrel on a rifle I just bought.
I bought this rifle three years ago, and so far, I have only changed the stock.

With my hand loads I’m getting an average of 0.59 MOA at 100 yards for 7 consecutive 5 shots groups, with a few groups under 0.5 MOA (below picture)
At this point I’m not sure if I’m limited by my skills or my gear. This is why I’m planning to swap the barrel in order to eliminate a variable in the equation.


http://imageshack.us/a/img269/9319/dsc3638.jpg

How about if I get the barrel installed by Sharp Shooter Supply? On their web page, I see they only charge $50 to install and headspace the barrel. It’s not as much fun as if I do it myself, but it’s more cost effective and less risky. I could by the Criterion and the barrel lug/nut, and send it to them.

They might require that I purchase the barrel from them. Even then, I could always go with a $365 Douglas barrel (Brux is way more expensive), and it will still cost me cheaper.

Too bad NSS doesn’t offer the installation….

Just check turnaround time there boss.... I seem to recall they had a few delays with stuff but seem to be clearing those?

best you get on the blower!

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Originally Posted by kevin1

How about if I get the barrel installed by Sharp Shooter Supply? On their web page, I see they only charge $50 to install and headspace the barrel. It’s not as much fun as if I do it myself, but it’s more cost effective and less risky. I could by the Criterion and the barrel lug/nut, and send it to them.

They might require that I purchase the barrel from them. Even then, I could always go with a $365 Douglas barrel (Brux is way more expensive), and it will still cost me cheaper.

Too bad NSS doesn’t offer the installation….

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Send Lisa an email and talk to her. As far as Douglas barrels, they are awesome. I have one from them it is a very accurate and consistent shooter.

Just a quick update on this.
It took some time, but I ended up getting a 308 Shilen SM S7 twist 10, NSS recoil lug, barrel nut, action wrench, barrel nut wrench, a forester go gage and a Versachem 13109 Anti-Seize Thread Lubricant.

The barrel swap was pretty easy. I used the scotch tape method for the head spacing (difficult to close with 1 layer, impossible with 2 layers).

The chamber of the barrel was a little on the rough side. (which is fine as it isn't giving me any issues)

During the breaking, I put the first 50 round through the barrel and I noticed the two nodes (41 and 44 g IMR 4064 with 175 SMK).
Please note that I was cleaning after each 5 shots (as recommended by Shilen for the first 50 rounds) with full resized brasses. Given these circumstances, and given that the gun didn’t blowup in my face :) , I’m very satisfied

Next step is to fine-tune a load between 39 and 41 gr.


This is very promising and I’m sure this barrel will shoot the lights out.


Below pic is the first 50 shots during the breakin.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...psdpch14zc.jpg

Nice shooting! Curious about what brass you are using.

Need to put pics of the rifle in this thread as well.

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With my hand loads I’m getting an average of 0.59 MOA at 100 yards for 7 consecutive 5 shots groups, with a few groups under 0.5 MOA

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Be interesting to see if the new will outperform the old.

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Originally Posted by wbm

Be interesting to see if the new will outperform the old.

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I’m pretty sure this barrel will outperform the old. Remember that I was cleaning the barrel after every 5 shots and I’m using old brass that is full length resized. Given these circumstances the 5 shot groups with 41g and 44 are pretty tight. With the old barrel I don’t recall getting this kind of grouping with a completely cleaned barrel.

Jbjh: The brass is Winchester. Shot them several times with the old barrel before full length resizing for the Shilen barrel. I’ll try to post a pic of the rifle during the weekend

I'll bet it does well once it settles down and you quit cleaning it. My best tube is a shilen.

I had a factory 7 twist 223 that shot .25-.35 moa but was a bit finiky. When I say finiky, it would go from jump from .25 to .35 moa at times. It took about 200 rounds for the barrel to settle down though and the first 200 were a bit all over the place depending.

The real out of the box shooter I had was a Sheilin 6mm BR barrel from midway that would shoot .25 moa all day long and that was on a out of the box savage action with a machined recoil lug in a choate stock with a top scope.

If I was after ultimate accuracy, I would have the action trued, either milled recoil lug and buy a Kreiger barrel.

The stock setup is just as important as everything else.
Scope rings and base also.

For 500 yards I would go for a 6mm BR.

I dont use an action wrench for savage rifle.

Get at least a go gage.

As promised, here’s the pic of the gun:

B&C Medalist A2 stock
Harris S-BRM with pod lock
Warne steel base 20 MOA
IOR VTAC 30mm Rings
SS 10X42 Scope
Shilen 308 SM 10 Twist 26” S7 barrel

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...psxtdrixif.jpg

Nice build!

Very nice

Looks Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I put another 50 rounds through the rifle. I loaded only 40.7 gr (average grouping of 0.683”) and 41 gr (average grouping of 0.631”). Bullets seated 0.005” off land.

I’m hoping to get better results after some more rounds and playing with the seating depth.
Going forward I’ll stick with the 41 gr load, but I’ll use CCI BR2 instead of CCI 200. I’ll also seat the bullets a little further (0.010-0.015” off land).

Only posting the pic with 41 gr (all are 5 shot groups at 100Y)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c3...psr8z1b7z1.jpg

Looks like you have a winner!

Smitty

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Originally Posted by kevin1

I’m thinking buying everything from NSS as I heard a lot of good things.
I’m considering swapping the factory barrel on my 308 Savage 10FP that is currently sitting in B&C Medalist A2 stock. My current set-up shoots consistently 0.5 to .75 moa with my hand loads. My goal is to go under a consistent 0.5 moa for a max of shooting distance of 500 yards. I wish I could end up with a 0.25 moa gun (who know, maybe I will), but I know that no barrel can guarantee this kind of accuracy.


Barrel Choice:
I’m hesitating between the Shilen Chrome Moly and the Criterion barrel.
1.What’s the finish on the Shilen Chrome Moly? Will it match the mat black finish of the Savage 10FP? If not, or if it’s a shiny blue finish, I might as well go with Criterion stainless steel barrel (the contrast should be better)
2. I heard the Shilen Chrome Moly is not hand lapped. But the accuracy of both should be very similar. Do you confirm?
3. which contour would fit my set-up, without the need of sanding the barrel channel of the stock?
I believe it would be Small Shank Varmint. Please confirm.


Recoil lug: Which one should I get?
(NSS) Precision Ground Heavy Duty or (NSS) Squared and Trued Barrel Nut. Honestly I can tell the difference. At the same time both seems to be stainless steel. So at the end, this will not match the finish of the rifle.


Tools needed: Which one of these I don’t have to buy
(NSS) Barrel Nut Wrench $25
(NSS) Action Wrench $60
(NSS) Vise Jaw Inserts. Which one do I need? Flat gripping surfaces for $40 or Round gripping surfaces for $48
My thoughts are that the (NSS) Vise Jaw Inserts might not be required (unless you tell me otherwise) as I can always use 2 pieces of wood, covered in blankets.

I will also need to by a vise. I suppose a cheap one will do.
Go-no go gage: I’m thinking just using a factory ammo as a go, and then one of my once fired brass as a no go.



Thanks in advance for all your inputs.

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I realize I may be a little late to the game on this one, but I'd be happy to provide some clarification to your earlier questions:

1. Criterion offers both a shiny stainless steel finish or a matte bead blast finish for a few more dollars.
2. Each and every Criterion pre-fit barrel is hand lapped.
3. Our contour information can be found by following this link: http://www.criterionbarrels.com/savagecontours.pdf

Installation is a fairly simple process that should take about 15 minutes. Jim over at NSS is able to walk builders through the process over the phone (we'll likely be putting together a YouTube video shortly on the subject).

Please let me know if I can help answer any questions regarding the Criterion pre-fit barrel line in the future. I'd be more than happy to help out!

-Josh

Nice Build! You will never regret having those tools. I agonized over buying mine just like you did, but now a year later that money is long under the bridge and I'll have the tools forever. I'm already working on a 2nd build, and have a couple more in the early planning stages. I can't wait to build my grandson his first hunting rifle, although he's only 6 months old, so I may be getting a little ahead of myself.
You have a fine shooter there. Enjoy the fine tuning.

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Originally Posted by CriterionBarrels

I realize I may be a little late to the game on this one, but I'd be happy to provide some clarification to your earlier questions:

1. Criterion offers both a shiny stainless steel finish or a matte bead blast finish for a few more dollars.
2. Each and every Criterion pre-fit barrel is hand lapped.
3. Our contour information can be found by following this link: http://www.criterionbarrels.com/savagecontours.pdf

Installation is a fairly simple process that should take about 15 minutes. Jim over at NSS is able to walk builders through the process over the phone (we'll likely be putting together a YouTube video shortly on the subject).

Please let me know if I can help answer any questions regarding the Criterion pre-fit barrel line in the future. I'd be more than happy to help out!

-Josh

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This is actually kind of a funny story.
I was convinced that CBI will shoot as good as a Shilen SM and couldn’t justify spending more money on a Shilen.
I ended up calling Jim and ordered a CBI barrel.
Instead, he sends me the Shilen SM barrel. So I call him back and explain the situation. My main concern was that someone has ordered a Shilen and received a CBI. Jim asks me to not mount the barrel while he figures out what’s going on. It appears there was a mistake and because of the hassle, and both way shipping cost I ended up keeping the barrel.

So I ended up with Shilen SM barrel that came with a CBI sticker :)