New Savage ML, accuracy problems

I have recently acquired a Savage ML-II. I mounted a Leupold VX-I 2-7x33, got some MMP HPH orange, HPH Green, and HPH black sabots, cast 300g .429 bullets and 340g. .458 bullets. I also bought some 240g .430 Hornady xtp pistol pullets to try just in case. AA 5744, and IMR 4759 powders were used.

Using the load data supplied with the rifle and the load data from Doug's message board, I started to work.
No matter which bullet/powder combination I used, I could get no better than a 6" group at 100 yards. So, I remounted the scope, no difference. I changed the scope for one I knew was good. No difference. My question is, what else could it be? I cleaned the gun multiple times. The action screws were tight. The scope mounts and rings were tight.

Any help would be appreciated.

You're not using a single load that Savage recommends. Throw the green sabots and the .429 / .430 bullets away, and don't shoot heavier than 300 grain saboted bullets.

Drill out your breechplug, install a fresh ventliner, and use .452 standard 250 or 300 grain Hornady XTP's with short black MMP sabots, for starters.

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Originally Posted by RandyWakeman

You're not using a single load that Savage recommends. Throw the green sabots and the .429 / .430 bullets away, and don't shoot heavier than 300 grain saboted bullets.

Drill out your breechplug, install a fresh ventliner, and use .452 standard 250 or 300 grain Hornady XTP's with short black MMP sabots, for starters.

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The breechplug was drilled out and a fresh ventliner was installed. Both were cleaned prior to use and during use.

Is the use of the green sabots with comparable weight bullets a safety issue? Are they inherently less accurate?

There are horribly inaccurate. Originally ".44 cal." green sabots were introduced to take advantage of the number of .44 Mag bullets readily available. Rarely do they shoot well in muzzleloaders, though, such a well-known issue that avoiding the .429 bullets and sabots has long been mentioned in Hodgdon's Pyrodex manual.

Large diameter bullets with flat bases and thinner sabots work the best. The "HPH-12" series sabots are the wrong sabots for .452 XTP's: too long. Green sabots and .429 bullets rarely give acceptable accuracy in any muzzleloader I've ever tried and they never have worked well out of 10ML's at all.

It is mentioned right here: http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,12162.0.html for that very reason.

Heres a shortcut:

If you can find the components, buy Harvester black Crush Rib sabots, 300gr Barnes original bullets, and load them over 60-62 grains of N-120. 4198 if you can't get the N-120.

If the gun wont shoot that sell it.

Something else,

Which MLII did you buy? If it is the laminate stock version you are golden, though they still can benefit from a good bedding job. If it is the plastic stock then bench technique is much more critical. Try to rest the gun back under the recoil lug to minimize forearm flex. Honestly I think the factory plastic is just to weak in a number of areas to ever take advantage of the accuracy available in the Savage MLII.

Make sure the front edge of the front base is not touching the recoil lug, take the scope off and shoot the iron sights and see what you got there. the 250 xtps and short black MMP and either 42 grain of N110 or 44 gr of 5744 should get you going
Cheers, Mike

Hey Torque,
I'm new here on this board but have had my 10ML II almost since they came out. Previously (I still have it...) I had a 1986 or so Knight Black Knight basic inline muzzleloader. That gun would shoot about whatever I put through it accurately.

..........not so with the 10ML II. I damn near turned it into a jack handle I was so frustrated with this thing. At the time I was extremely leary of using ANY smokeless powder in this gun even though it was advertised as such. Flinging bullets all over the paper, keyholing, failure to ignite, and the worst and STILL most frustrating thing of all --- I almost have to keep a rawhide mallet with me to pound the primer out, drives me crazy. AND YES before any smart alecks just in with "clean the plug, vent liner, etc" all that is done every time I shoot.

NOW......that being said you CAN develop good loads for this rifle but it's gonna depend on what YOUR rifle likes. Mine happens to shoot 3" groups at 100yds with two pyrodex pellets, green sabots, and .44 calibre bullets. Put granular pyrodex in it and forget it, all over the target. You just have to work with it a bit although it escapes me WHY this particular gun is so damn picky!

After finding this forum I have full intentions of getting the proper and recommended (NOW....) bullets/sabots and the recommended powder and flingin some bullets downrange. When I bought my 10ML II one of the recommended powders was 4227 and I don't see that being mentioned anymore --- anyone tell me why????

Nice gun but VERY touchy. Anyone wanna trade for a 45-70???

Just my .01 worth

Art

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Originally Posted by Tazman1602

When I bought my 10ML II one of the recommended powders was 4227 and I don't see that being mentioned anymore --- anyone tell me why????

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Have you ever let Savage look at your gun?

4227 has poor ignition-- the current powders are all much more suitable.

As far as carrying a mallet (?) that's silly. Close the bolt and pull the trigger-- the firing pin knocks off the primer. The solution is to change brands of primers; not much quality in those little cheap tin cans.

don't forget about imr 4759 mine like it at 42 grains with black sabots and 250 gr .451 nosler hollow point. may just be my barrel but it is very tight going down the barrel. makes you think it needs cleaning but it will shoot tennis ball size groups at 125 if i do my part. i practice on a piece of 1 inch pipe set at 60 yards and have whittled about 4 foot off of it in the last 3 or 4 years. you can see your vertical very easy and more than half inch in either direction and whoops you missed.

I just bought a new laminated stock from Randy W to replace my tupperware one. The first trip to the range with the newly installed stock I fired only one group at 200 yards. This was with the factory recommended 43gr. SR4759 and 250 Hornady SST. The factory does know what they're talking about.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...roup200yds.jpg

Your tight on your action screws is 25 in. lb. right?

I use 50 inch lbs. on the laminated Savage stock since it's got the metal pillars. I usually only go to 35 on any stock where there's wood between the action and bolt head.

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Originally Posted by RandyWakeman

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Originally Posted by Tazman1602

When I bought my 10ML II one of the recommended powders was 4227 and I don't see that being mentioned anymore --- anyone tell me why????

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Have you ever let Savage look at your gun?

4227 has poor ignition-- the current powders are all much more suitable.

As far as carrying a mallet (?) that's silly. Close the bolt and pull the trigger-- the firing pin knocks off the primer. The solution is to change brands of primers; not much quality in those little cheap tin cans.

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Hey Randy,

Thanks for the reply. I'd LOVE to try the different powders...........if I could find any. Seems there has been a run on powder/primers/reloading components since someone took office a year ago but I do have some 4227 on hand. I did find my owners manual and it does state 4227 as a recommended powder so I'm going to have to try it.

On the primer issue we're talking about 209 primers (shotgun) and I don't mean they don't do "bang" when I pull the trigger. What I'm talking about is after the gun is fired (keep in mind that I have yet to shoot a smokeless load through this gun....) it's almost impossible sometimes to get the fired primer out. I've cleaned/reamed ect the breech/vent plug but it still exhibits this behavior. I have read here that sometimes you might need to drop the firing pin on the primer a second time to get it to come out and when I go out and shoot this gun I'll try that.

Man I'd love to try some of the recommended sabots/bullets with this gun but the job situation up here is miserable so I guess I'm gonna have to try to work up a smokeless load with what I have on hand with .44 caliber bullets.

Thanks so much!

Art

Tazman I just worked on a 10ml-2 for a friend of my sons who said he could not get it to shoot. It was all over the paper if it hit the paper. The first thing I changed was the sabot he had the long black ones from Hornady and I used the short black ones from mmp. This brought it down to about a 8 inch pattern. Next was too tighten the scope mounts that had allowed the scope to shift forward about 1/4 inch, this started too allow it to put all shots in a 4 inch circle at 100yds. He had .252 250 gr SST's and I have had experince with mine and another ML10 that would not shoot these I don't know why but they would not. So next I changed to .252 250 XTP with 43 gr. of IMR4759 and it started too shoot 3 shot clusters of 3/4 to 1 inch at 100yds.

This is 3 ML10-2 s that I have not been able to get the SST to shoot like the XTP even though the SST is a recommended bullet from Savage.

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Originally Posted by Tazman1602

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Originally Posted by RandyWakeman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tazman1602

When I bought my 10ML II one of the recommended powders was 4227 and I don't see that being mentioned anymore --- anyone tell me why????

---

Have you ever let Savage look at your gun?

4227 has poor ignition-- the current powders are all much more suitable.

As far as carrying a mallet (?) that's silly. Close the bolt and pull the trigger-- the firing pin knocks off the primer. The solution is to change brands of primers; not much quality in those little cheap tin cans.

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Hey Randy,

Thanks for the reply. I'd LOVE to try the different powders...........if I could find any. Seems there has been a run on powder/primers/reloading components since someone took office a year ago but I do have some 4227 on hand. I did find my owners manual and it does state 4227 as a recommended powder so I'm going to have to try it.

On the primer issue we're talking about 209 primers (shotgun) and I don't mean they don't do "bang" when I pull the trigger. What I'm talking about is after the gun is fired (keep in mind that I have yet to shoot a smokeless load through this gun....) it's almost impossible sometimes to get the fired primer out. I've cleaned/reamed ect the breech/vent plug but it still exhibits this behavior. I have read here that sometimes you might need to drop the firing pin on the primer a second time to get it to come out and when I go out and shoot this gun I'll try that.

Man I'd love to try some of the recommended sabots/bullets with this gun but the job situation up here is miserable so I guess I'm gonna have to try to work up a smokeless load with what I have on hand with .44 caliber bullets.

Thanks so much!

Art

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Midway USA has both 4759 and 5744 in stock. I've never had Winchester 209 primers stick and they have those in stock, too. You can order your sabots from MMP http://www.mmpsabots.com/ . They have a very fast turn around time.
IMO, you're just wasting your time with the 4227 and the undersized bullets..... :-[

Switch to CCI 209 magnum primers, should eliminate your primer problems.

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Originally Posted by doegirl

Midway USA has both 4759 and 5744 in stock. I've never had Winchester 209 primers stick and they have those in stock, too. You can order your sabots from MMP http://www.mmpsabots.com/ . They have a very fast turn around time.
IMO, you're just wasting your time with the 4227 and the undersized bullets..... :-[

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Thanks for that Doe but to buy powder from Midway??? $24 for a pound of powder and $32.50 in shipping and hazmat fees, I don't think so. It actually shoots 2.5" groups with Pyrodex pellets and the .44 bullets and I"ve got MMP sabots. I am not unhappy with that at all. I guess if I used either powder regularly and could justify an 8lb keg I might consider it. Thanks for your help.

Art

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Originally Posted by gpa357

Switch to CCI 209 magnum primers, should eliminate your primer problems.

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Thank you, that one I can try.

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Originally Posted by Tazman1602

$24 for a pound of powder and $32.50 in shipping and hazmat fees, I don't think so.

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I just ordered powder from midway last night and there wasn't a haz-mat charge.