An Ackley Improved section???

I wonder if we could get a section here devoted to just the Ackley Improved cartridges and firearm issues? There is so much about them that is unusual and different... it sure would be nice to be able to gather it all in one easy to find centralized location... and get all the Ackleyites talking in their own corner (so they don't annoy the rest of the forum... ha ha) !!!

It's just a suggestion: I am sure you get many, and we will all live if you don't make it happen! ;)

But it sure would be nice...

Thanks

Gene

I guess i dont understand where owning one type of a gun is much different from owning another type.
They all fill a need for whatever reason for the one owning them.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

I guess i dont understand where owning one type of a gun is much different from owning another type.
They all fill a need for whatever reason for the one owning them.

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Perhaps you are correct, but speaking for myself, having never owned an Ackley, and presently putting one together, there are a lot of things that I did not know beforehand. Likewise, I am sure there are still many other things that I don't know that I don't know!!! ;)

Anyway, it's not really a problem. I just thought it would be a helpful idea.

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Originally Posted by geneackley

Perhaps you are correct, but speaking for myself, and having never owned an Ackley, and presently putting one together, there are a lot of things I did not know beforehand, and I am sure there are still many others that I don't know that I don't know!!!

Anyway, it's not really a problem. I just thought it would be a helpful idea.

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Well im certainly no authority on anything, including guns with Ackley chambers.
But i do own one, a 22/250, and if i were to own another it would probably be a 280.
The one i have was recommended by a gunsmith friend who like me likes to hunt prairie dogs.
He gave me the load he uses and thats the one i still use.
I just loaded factory 22/250 brass and shot it, when the case came out it had a different shape.
But thats really all that was involved.
As for the 280, i have owned several 7 rem mags.
I do think it is a very good cartridge, but it isnt an ultra mag either.
So why not have an ultra mag if your looking for more performance?
The claim of ( almost ) the same performance, is the same as saying not quite as good, at least imop.
I used 65 gr 4831 with the 162 gr bullet in my factory Rem 700 7 mag to get a rounded up 3000 fps.
I really dont think thats a major difference in cost by way of powder charge over what a 280 AI will be.
That was also 40 years ago, no doubt some of the newer powders might improve that somewhat.

What separates the Ackley Improved from other savages 10/110?

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

What separates the Ackley Improved from other savages 10/110?

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Nothing - other than you'll typically have to do some fiddling with the feed lips on your magazine box to get them to feed properly.

As for the OP's question about a dedicated board, not going to happen as there's just not enough Ackley talk to justify it - and the topics that would come up regarding Ackley's (feeding and reloading) is already represented by other boards.

As yobuck pointed out, there's really nothing "special" about the Ackley Improved cartridges that makes them unique amongst cartridges. Once the parent case is fire-formed in an Ackley chamber it's the same as sizing/reloading any other cartridge. Only thing you might have to contend with is a doughnut forming at the base of the neck, but that's not exactly unique to the Ackley cases.

As for forming brass, it's pretty simple:

1. Run your new parent case brass through your FL Ackley die. This will set the neck/shoulder position back as the steeper shoulder angle usually necessitates the neck/shoulder junction being moved back a bit creating a slightly longer neck.

2. Fire-Form your brass (couple options here)

1. Load up your brass with standard parent case loads and shoot in your Ackley chambered barrel to blow out the shoulders.
2. Load up with a small charge of a pistol powder (I generally use Bullseye or Blue-Dot), fill the rest of the case with some old corncob or walnut tumbling media, then plug the case mouth with wax or bar soap. This is the "money saver" method as you aren't using much powder or a bullet, but you'll have to experiment with your charge weight to figure out just how much powder is needed to fully form the brass.

When I built my first AI rifle some 16 years ago I started off using the latter method to form my brass with the pistol powder, but can't say I've used that method at all in the last 10 years or so.

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

Nothing - other than you'll typically have to do some fiddling with the feed lips on your magazine box to get them to feed properly.

As for the OP's question about a dedicated board, not going to happen as there's just not enough Ackley talk to justify it - and the topics that would come up regarding Ackley's (feeding and reloading) is already represented by other boards.

As yobuck pointed out, there's really nothing "special" about the Ackley Improved cartridges that makes them unique amongst cartridges. Once the parent case is fire-formed in an Ackley chamber it's the same as sizing/reloading any other cartridge. Only thing you might have to contend with is a doughnut forming at the base of the neck, but that's not exactly unique to the Ackley cases.

As for forming brass, it's pretty simple:

1. Run your new parent case brass through your FL Ackley die. This will set the neck/shoulder position back as the steeper shoulder angle usually necessitates the neck/shoulder junction being moved back a bit creating a slightly longer neck.

2. Fire-Form your brass (couple options here)

1. Load up your brass with standard parent case loads and shoot in your Ackley chambered barrel to blow out the shoulders.
2. Load up with a small charge of a pistol powder (I generally use Bullseye or Blue-Dot), fill the rest of the case with some old corncob or walnut tumbling media, then plug the case mouth with wax or bar soap. This is the "money saver" method as you aren't using much powder or a bullet, but you'll have to experiment with your charge weight to figure out just how much powder is needed to fully form the brass.

When I built my first AI rifle some 16 years ago I started off using the latter method to form my brass with the pistol powder, but can't say I've used that method at all in the last 10 years or so.

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I have heard that there is now a HYDRAULIC DIE you can order from Hornady (or some other major reloading die makers) that would preclude your having to ever waste powder or primers fire forming again. You fill the case with water, it has a special shell holder without the hole, and you whack a ram with a mallet and out comes pretty well / usable hydroformed brass. Shoulders might not be very sharp, but after your first real firing they will be.

Anyway thanks!!!

Some Ackley Improved cartridges are well worth the gains they provide over the standard cartridge. Other's don't do much but cost you a bunch of time and money, only to gain you 50 - 100 fps in velocity.

I've built a 223 AI and 260 AI rifles in the past, only to take them apart and sell the barrel's, dies, and brass. They just didn't do much over the standard cartridge's, and weren't worth wasting time with to me.

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Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

Some Ackley Improved cartridges are well worth the gains they provide over the standard cartridge. Other's don't do much but cost you a bunch of time and money, only to gain you 50 - 100 fps in velocity.

I've built a 223 AI and 260 AI rifles in the past, only to take them apart and sell the barrel's, dies, and brass. They just didn't do much over the standard cartridge's, and weren't worth wasting time with to me.

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In fairness, there are things about the case that might make it worth it, especially if youve already done it. lol
A prairie dog at 500 yards isnt going to be running off after you shoot at it and miss, and next shot opportunity at it might be 650 or 700 like a deer is apt to do.
So a 100 fps gain for a prairie dog gun could be a decent improvement.
But fact is that good long range cartridges burn powder, lots of it, and thats what makes them good, not simply redesigning the case shoulder.
Reality is that the shape of the shoulder plays very little roll in cartridge performance as for the velocity aspect.
The difference in velocity performance between an AI and standard chamber comes as a result of the case holding more powder, nothing else.
So in my view at least theres a valid argument with regard to simply buying a different gun with a cartridge that offers better performance to start with if thats what your looking for.

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

As for forming brass, it's pretty simple:

1. Run your new parent case brass through your FL Ackley die. This will set the neck/shoulder position back as the steeper shoulder angle usually necessitates the neck/shoulder junction being moved back a bit creating a slightly longer neck..

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As I understand it- one of the benefits of Ackley is that you can still use the factory ammo from the parent case. I've never had to set the neck/shoulder area back at all- The ackley is a few thousands shorter.... but with the case only making contact with the chamber at 1 point (before fire forming) you can easily close the bolt on it. This also holds the case true and you get consistent results.

The biggest benefit in my mind is the lack of trimming... it really does make a difference. I have some 260 AI brass that has 10 firings on it and I have never had to trim.

My reasons for going to the 280 Ackley were simply that I was trying to get as close as I could to 7mm Rem Magnum performance without the need for the expensive and funky belted brass. 280 AI could be made from old, abundant, cheap, 30-06 brass and is within 50 FPS of the 7 Rem Mag!!!! Good enough for me given the much lower expense.

The fact that the cases need less trimming is a plus. The fact that its an unusual and exotic caliber also helps... And a real conversation starter on the range I bet...

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Originally Posted by geneackley

My reasons for going to the 280 Ackley were simply that I was trying to get as close as I could to 7mm Rem Magnum performance without the need for the expensive and funky belted brass. 280 AI could be made from old, abundant, cheap, 30-06 brass and is within 50 FPS of the 7 Rem Mag!!!! Good enough for me given the much lower expense.

The fact that the cases need less trimming is a plus. The fact that its an unusual and exotic caliber also helps... And a real conversation starter on the range I bet...

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All good points that you make, especially the less trimming which may be the only one you can hang your hat on.
As for the (funky) belt, its simply a different way to headspace a case.
It could also be used as an additional way to headspace a case by using both the shoulder and the belt.
A decade or so ago somebody in the long range accuracy world got the notion that belts were bad for accuracy.
Never mind that records were set with belted cartridges that very few of those guys ever matched, to this very day i might add.
But before long about every head nodder was spreading the word that belted cases were no good.
So other cases began to reappear that hadnt been seen for a long time, Rigby cases for example.
But like most other things that bunch can dream up that fad fizzled away also.
Have you seen your megplat trimmer lately? lol
Today theve pretty much gotten away from all the large cases in favor of smaller ones
And they have also moved to getting all the shots off as quickly as possible by using a joystick front rest, like 10 shots in less than 1 minit.
I wonder which is apt to have the most impact on the results?

Unfortunately though I already have my KRG Bravo stock, Nucleus action and Trigger tech trigger, my barrel wont be forthcoming for several more months... So I bought a cheap take off 30-06 and am considering putting it on in the meantime to be able to enjoy the gun and make brass to reload till my Xcaliber barrel gets here.

I also need 280 dies that have been ordered from Brownell's but are on back order...

So its just a waiting game now....

The only unordered (and as yet undecided) item in this project is the scope. But you can bet it wont be a Vortex!!! ( ha ha ).

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Originally Posted by geneackley

The only unordered (and as yet undecided) item in this project is the scope. But you can bet it wont be a Vortex!!! ( ha ha ).

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Why not a Vortex?

have several ai calibers,like the hotrod bullet speed.

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

Why not a Vortex?

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Because you don't want to use a lifetime warranty 5 times before you sell it(buyer beware) to buy another scope.

I’m not debating you on if we need one....

what usually causes a forum owner to create additional sections is when something like the Savage 10/110 four gets filled with custom build talk or caliber talk or Gunsmithing for example and the “how do I get my Savage 10 trigger adjusted right” gets bumped to the second page before it gets an answer.

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Originally Posted by Whynot

As I understand it- one of the benefits of Ackley is that you can still use the factory ammo from the parent case.

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That's the hallmark of a "true" improved cartridge, the ability to fire the parent cartridge in an improved chamber without alteration.
I currently shoot three improved cartridge and a wildcat in the improved configuration , a 22-250, 250, 280 and the 'cat 270-08 Imp 40. For the first three I simply load and fire their parent's brass. For the 270, I run 308 Win brass in a 7-08 FL die sans expander stopped short to create a false shoulder for a .004"-.005" crush fit in the 270-08 Imp chamber.

Bill

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Originally Posted by J.Baker

Nothing - other than you'll typically have to do some fiddling with the feed lips on your magazine box to get them to feed properly.

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I keep reading this. It hasn't happened to me. But I'm sure now that I've said this a couple times, it will become an issue....

ai rounds get more speed out of bullets.223 ai work great on prairie dogs. 308ai work great ,280ai,35ai wheelen ,22,250ai.7mm08 ai ,243ai great for deer,.just some of ai i have.338ai lapua magnum saves brass and great shooter brass dont stretch

the .280 ai does really well, probably one of the best to gain

I shoot the 22-250AKLY. My go to rifle for varmints, p-dogs.... I bore people with it all the time. Thought about others, but not yet.

I have a bunch of AI guns. At first, I was looking for magnum performance w/o the recoil/blast. That didn't happen. There are vel gains, but not 200 fps. I like them for the "cool" factor and that I don't have to trim the brass.

6mm Rem AI, 257 Roberts AI, 260 AI, 6.5-06 AI, 7x57AI, 280 AI, 30-06 AI, 30-30 AI, 375 H&H AI. I have 223 AI and 22-250 AI dies, just haven't gotten around to building the rifles yet.

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Originally Posted by cowboybart

I have a bunch of AI guns. At first, I was looking for magnum performance w/o the recoil/blast. That didn't happen. There are vel gains, but not 200 fps. I like them for the "cool" factor and that I don't have to trim the brass.

6mm Rem AI, 257 Roberts AI, 260 AI, 6.5-06 AI, 7x57AI, 280 AI, 30-06 AI, 30-30 AI, 375 H&H AI. I have 223 AI and 22-250 AI dies, just haven't gotten around to building the rifles yet.

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By Odin's Beard! You are like the Ackley Kid here, LOL! I'm planning to go AI with my 260 on next rebarrel. I should have done it from the start...but, hindsight & all. Meh. Ah well.