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During the first and second firings of my Savage Axis HB in .223, I had probably a total of 7 soft primer hits.
I read the thread on soft primer strikes and their treatment, but can't really recall what was done - IIRC some of the respondents said that they took the bolt apart and reseated the springs and modified some washers, is that correct?
I'd rather not send the rifle to Savage for repair - it's a colossal PITA to do this. What did you do to fix yours?
Doing some research made me recall what rounds were failing... I am sure they were my handloads, with CCI primers. These handloads were made with Lee Full-Length Sizing Dies. I wonder if the full-length resizing I did set the shoulders back a little too far and I have a slightly more generous headspace in my chamber in the Savage? Could be the round is "scooting ahead" in the chamber under the impact of the firing pin.
I will also measure my firing pin protrusion and report that back here. I am using a Lyman Case Length Gauge to evaluate the re-sizing of my rounds.
Keep in mind I reload those for the ARs, never having intended on using them in the bolt gun... I have 60 shells once-fired in the Axis... I will neck size these and shoot them to see if they all fire with the CCI primers. If so, I may have my answer.
Which CCI primers? My Axis will also have light strikes if I shoot 5.56 rounds that have hard primers, but I never have issues with factory .223 rounds....or my handloads with CCI 400's in them. And are your primers seated fully into the brass? And before anyone says anything my Axis has a Wylde chambered barrel so I can safely load both...
I have never had a light primer strike before. I shoot nothing but my own reloads. With the current panic buying I bought 1000 CCI primers and today I had 3 misfires with what looked like light strikes. I do know that CCI primers are harder and may be designed for AR 15 with its floting fireing pin. Some of the Federal #6 primers will cause Slam Fires in the AR.
You have two paths. Pic one and follow it.
Measure your shoulder length and confirm it is correct. Dry fire with primed brass to test.
Rebuild your bolt to look for issues. Dry fire with primed brass to test.
After around 200 hand loads thru my 243 Axis I started experiencing light primer strikes. I tried polishing the FP and the inside of the bolt w/o it doing any good. I had my LGS order new springs from Savage and the problem went away.
_.
Don't blame it on the firing pin spring till you can prove it!!
Still got some of those FTF rounds??
Increase the OAL by pulling the bullets out to a "jam into the lands". Chamber them, pull the trigger and see if they will BANG.
First thing I look for in RELOADS is if the shoulder got pushed back too far. If so, the case gets pushed forward in the chamber by the firing pin and you end up with a FTF. Looks like a soft strike.
Long OAL keeps the case head against the bolt head so the primer will go off.
And I'll add, I shoot nothing but CCI BR and Mil Spec primers. Only primers that EVER FTF were in cases that had the shoulder pushed back too far. Had one round that got wet from laying out overnight, it just went fizzled.
Been there, done that. We learn as we go.:thumb:
I was routinely neck sizing for my Axis 243 and still experienced the light primer strike that's why I finally ordered the springs. Changed the springs, continued to neck size and had no further light primer strikes. When the new springs arrived I compared them to the old ones and the new were overall longer. Jamming bullets in my case wouldn't have mattered. For someone else, it just may do the trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie
GaCop Same here. Thanks!
Curious if either of you actually tried increasing the round OAL to see if that cured the problem or just popped for a new spring?
I don't shoot an Axis so maybe there's a difference between the 10,110,12,112 etc. or the Axis?
And thinking back, the few FTF that I experienced happened on my XP 100 converted rifle in .221 Fireball. Case OAL cured that issue and it has never happened again.;)
Yep. Finally ran out of options except another spring.
If you used 41 cci primers then that is your problem. Not only are they thicker the anvil is spaced out farther to prevent slam fires. Regular 450 mag cci primers are the same thing as 41 but the anvil is in the standard location as the 400 primers. 400 primers are not meant to be loaded in 223 or 556 ammo as it is thinner and was designed for 22 hornet class of cartridges.
What your saying is very true for Small Rifle Primers but in FOGeologists' case and mine with our 243s, LRPs were involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
LR military primers are made the same way the sr 41 primers are. The anvil is spaced out farther to prevent slam fires. Another way to overcome this is run a firing pin protrusion out farther.
More than likely the head space was on the long side. After having the new springs in your bolt now I can guarantee the spring is a lot shorter now than when you put it in.
Not sure I understand thisQuote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
Guarantee? Im not sure I agree with this unless we heat them up enough to anneal them or the material and the heat treat process were flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
That whole statement is wrong.....
Well I wanted to give him a chance to clarify it before I went that far. I digress, yours may have been the right approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
How so???Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
The anvil is spaced out a little farther, have a harder to ignite compound and the cup is harder on the #34 LR military primers. If the firing pin is not sticking out far enough as in on the low side of protrusion. Then with a chamber that is on the high side of the HS. And brass that is sized back too far then you a high tolerance stacking problem. Adjusting the protrusion to the high side could help with the tolerance stacking.
As to the spring being shorter they do lose compression over time. So yes the firing pine spring will probably be shorter.
Oh and by the way, I am still waiting on your response from a rifle you built that the bedding was cracked and the barrel was not free floated like I paid you to do. Only been about 8 years or more. Still waiting on a response. Or a refund.
The anvil is not spaced out farther, it's shorter. I has to be because the cup is thicker. All primers have the same tolerance in height. CCI uses the same compound in the 450's as they do in the 41's. The firing pin will not penetrate any primer more than .025", no matter what the cup thickness, anvil height or spring pressure. In my studies of ignition, the penetration of firing pin dent averaged .021" over 18 different primers, using stock springs.
In an ideal situation where there is no headspace, setting the protrusion to .025" would be sufficient, however when you figure in some shoulder set back of .002", it might be wiser to increase the protrusion to a minimum of .030",which would give you more than enough reach for full detonation.This would be for precision handloaders who have control of what they load for their gun. For the average varmint hunter, .035" will cover the gammet. If it won't fire at that length, you don't have enough spring, or enough travel, or you have enough headspace it won't reach. For that matter, be glad it didn't go off. As far as the headspace being long from the factory...not bloody likely. They are checked several times by several different workers. It is far more likely that the shoulder of the case was set back too far.
In this case of the Axis, the firing pin is one piece and cannot be adjusted like the standard 110 pin. The standard FP protrusion is .055", and the only way to "adjust" it is to shorten the tip. At .055" protrusion, the travel to the primer is reduced by the amount of difference it takes to get a .025" penetration. In other words, you are losing about .030" in travel, which translates into lost momentum. That short amount doesn't sound like much, but it is equivalent to 7 in/oz in impact energy.
Springs do NOT lose compression over time, they lose compression over cycles. High volume production compression springs as used for firing pins are made from "Rocket wire", not the common garden variety music wire used in common hardware applications. These types of springs are not suitable for repeated rapid cycles, and will take a set and continue to lose compression.
Because firing pin springs are made in high volume, they are not "conditioned". To properly condition a compression spring, it is first stretched 1% per coil over it's free length, them compressed to solid height. The result makes it slightly shorter, relieves some stress and puts it into it's compression range....kinda like stretching a ballon before you blow it up.
That last line....I have no knowledge of, nor do I know who I'm dealing with.
Well said Fred!!:cool::cool:
Your wrong FRED. CCI states the anvil is spaced farther away on the 41 primers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomme boy
Tomme, I am interested in this. I went to CCI's site but the only thing I could find was that they are built to Military spec's. Can you provide a link. Thanks
I did Find this in a technical article however;
CCI/Speer Technical Services says: "The CCI 400 primer does have a thinner cup bottom than CCI 450, #41 or BR4 primers... [with] the CCI #41 primer... there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup."
Credit to John Barsness "A primer on Primers"
You know what?? It is no longer on their site. It used to be. And it gave the difference of the depths as well.
I found the mil spec references but I never could find the drawing. I had never seen the reference to the #41 with regards to the spacing between the cup and anvil until I uncovered the article I mentioned above.
Instead of relying on what you've seen and heard, has any one of you guys ever dissected primers and actually measured them?
Ive done a lot of things but I have never done that?
Well........I have, and I'll stand by my statements.
Good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
OK, but there is this lingering question. How did you measure between the anvil and the bottom of the cup? Asking for a friend....:o
LOL. Carefully?
Well, first you measure the over all height. Then you remove the anvil and measure it's height. Once you dig out the priming charge from the cup, you can measure it's thickness. This is done using a height gauge and a 1/8" ball bearing, that way you are measuring the thickness on the primer face, not on it's sides. They rest is simple math, and you must figure in how much crush to get the primer approx .004" below flush.
You will find there is a big tolerance in primer specs, and in the end game, they ALL end up within tolerance.
Probably no one is interested but many years ago like 35 or 40, Ric Jamison who at that time was a staff writer for Shooting Times did about the best article on primers that was ever written. Comparing and testing nearly every type of rifle primer. Pictures of how far out the fire went. Not sure how to ever look it up but well worth it if you can.
I remember that!
Hello, I hope that I can help. I am an accredited gunsmith in southern Alberta. A client brought me an Axis in .223 Rem with exactly the same problem. Inconsistent firing pin indents on the primer, thus misfires. Upon very close inspection of the bolt fully disassembled, I notice drag marks on the firing pin at the point where it passes through the 1/4″ cross pin which secures the rotating and fixed bolt heads. I checked firing pin runout on my lathe at the point where is passes though the cross pin. This measured 0.095″. The hole through the pin measures 0.105″ this allowing a 0.010″ clearance. The firing pin runout measured 0.013″ with a digital dial indicator. This would then mean a 0.003″ interference which can cause the drag marks and restrict proper striking. I opened up the cross pin hole from 0.105″ to 0.147″ using a carbide #26 drill bit. The client has reported back to me and indicated that a dozen rounds did not show any more problems. The cross pin is actually a very loose fit. When pressure is relieve from the wave washer, the pin can drop out on it’s own. As such, if the pin is not perfectly lined up center of bore, it can cause interference with such a small clearance of 0.010″. Furthermore, the pin being such a loose fit, can rotate again causing interference. As a side note and warning to do it yourself guys. The drill MUST be carbide as the pin is hard, standard tool steel bits may not cut it. And it’s a precision job, the original hole must be perfectly centered in the vice jaws. I use a milling machine to do this job and not a drill press and certainly not a cordless. Good luck.
Thanks for taking the time to post this I am sure it will help some members sought out their particular problem further.Quote:
Originally Posted by HRGX