6.5 CM bad groups

Printable View

06-19-2018, 10:16 PM
DT400

6.5 CM bad groups

Hi all.
Looking for some ideas here.
All testing done at 200yds
I have a Savage 110 Long Range Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor non modified. I purchased it early to mid 2017.
Vortex HST 6x24x50 scope double checked by Vortex.
Talley rings
Action torqued per Savage instructions to 40 inlbs done in 10 lb increments
rings to scope 18 inlbs per Vortex
Ring to receiver tightened per instructions and loctited and double checked since first installed but I don't remember what the specs were.

I have a 12FV Varmint in 22-250 (2014 model I think) that will shoot .5" at 200 yds when I do my part and easily under 1" at 200 yds. That 22-250 is the reason I got the Savage 110LRH.

I have yet to be impressed with the 6.5 CM rifle.
I have shot Hornady American Gunner 140 gr BTHP and Hornady Superformance 123 gr SST as well as some other factory stuff as well as reloads of mine using rl-17 with Hornady 123 SST and H4350 with Hornady 140SST. My reloads are neck sized only with .002 tension and are within .003 of concentricity.
I have tried various powder weights and seating depths and the BEST I have gotten so far is .9" with the 123 gr and 1.4" with the 140 gr and H4350
I may not have the best bench rest technique but I am no slouch either. Front rest and rear bag used.
Is this all I can expect out of this gun?
I was reading on another site that Savages barrel quality has gone downhill and I am wondering if I have a bad barrel. The barrel "looks" great and the crown perfect using a borescope.
I have cleaned ALL of the copper out a couple times as well as let it get pretty dirty just to see what it shot like in both conditions.
Most 200 yd groups are in the 2" range...just dismal IMO.
I see posts from people all the time showing under 1" groups with factory ammo at 200 yds and " this thing is accurate with just about anything I feed it" all of the comments of how accurate the 6.5 is really have me wondering if I got a lemon.

Any other ideas. I hate to think that this gun is really this bad.

Darrell
06-19-2018, 10:43 PM
wfournier

I have a 12FV in 6.5 and I'm still working on getting the loads figured out but the two 5 shot groups I shot with the best load so far were .6" and .65" at 100 yards. .5" at 200 seems like a stretch to me, that somewhere in the area of .25 MOA, I think expecting that from a factory gun is asking a lot. I did a 20 round ladder test (loaded based on my manual then when doing a little research saw people were loading well above what it listed as the max charge so I loaded some more). The whole group at 200 was probably around 3" but if I drop the first three and last three it shrinks to about 1.75" at 200 for 14 rounds with charge weights between 38 and 42 grains of h4350 and 140g ELD-M.

Mine does seem to prefer certain bullets over others, I broke it in with factory ammo and the 140g winchester match was definitely the best performer. I shot some super performance as well as something Hornady with 130g bergers and both of those were mediocre best groups were probably around an inch with some being a good bit larger. Seating depth might be an issue too, the bergers felt like they were getting pushed into the lands when closing the bolt so maybe they would have been better seated deeper.
06-20-2018, 09:32 AM
stomp442

Couple thoughts. First if you are wanting half moa or better accuracy don't waste your money on factory ammo. Get some good quality brass and good quality bullets. Berger or Sierra have consistently shot better for me. Hornady SSTs are just about the most inconsistent bullet you can buy. They work great for hunting under 200 yards but if you are wanting precision performance you are going to have to use precision components. Secondly, I would take a real close look at that scope. I have had way too many issues with Vortex scopes to not mention it. Swap it out with a known good scope and see if things improve. Third check your tang and make sure your tang is floated all the way around. Also make sure the barrel remains floated while in the rest. Sometimes Savage doesn't provide a lot of clearance right at the forend tip and the weight of the rifle sitting in the bag can cause it to touch.

41.5gr of H4350 and a 140 Berger or 142 Sierra seated .025" from the lands has been a pet load that has worked for me in multiple Creedmoors. You should definitely find a good node between 41-42gr of H4350
06-20-2018, 09:45 AM
gbflyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by DT400

Hi all.
Looking for some ideas here.
All testing done at 200yds
I have a Savage 110 Long Range Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor non modified. I purchased it early to mid 2017.
Vortex HST 6x24x50 scope double checked by Vortex.
Talley rings
Action torqued per Savage instructions to 40 inlbs done in 10 lb increments
rings to scope 18 inlbs per Vortex
Ring to receiver tightened per instructions and loctited and double checked since first installed but I don't remember what the specs were.

I have a 12FV Varmint in 22-250 (2014 model I think) that will shoot .5" at 200 yds when I do my part and easily under 1" at 200 yds. That 22-250 is the reason I got the Savage 110LRH.

I have yet to be impressed with the 6.5 CM rifle.
I have shot Hornady American Gunner 140 gr BTHP and Hornady Superformance 123 gr SST as well as some other factory stuff as well as reloads of mine using rl-17 with Hornady 123 SST and H4350 with Hornady 140SST. My reloads are neck sized only with .002 tension and are within .003 of concentricity.
I have tried various powder weights and seating depths and the BEST I have gotten so far is .9" with the 123 gr and 1.4" with the 140 gr and H4350
I may not have the best bench rest technique but I am no slouch either. Front rest and rear bag used.
Is this all I can expect out of this gun?
I was reading on another site that Savages barrel quality has gone downhill and I am wondering if I have a bad barrel. The barrel "looks" great and the crown perfect using a borescope.
I have cleaned ALL of the copper out a couple times as well as let it get pretty dirty just to see what it shot like in both conditions.
Most 200 yd groups are in the 2" range...just dismal IMO.
I see posts from people all the time showing under 1" groups with factory ammo at 200 yds and " this thing is accurate with just about anything I feed it" all of the comments of how accurate the 6.5 is really have me wondering if I got a lemon.

Any other ideas. I hate to think that this gun is really this bad.

Darrell

I think what you have there is an honest report on a factory gun. Good shooting. Try some different bullets in your reloads or some factory match loads. I’ll bet you’ll find you have a consistent 1” gun, maybe a little better even. There’s nothing wrong with that at all.

A lot of folks go out and print a couple of .5 groups and all of a sudden they claim to have a .5 gun. Rarely they do, but most likely not.
06-20-2018, 12:13 PM
98dyna

6.5

My glitch with my 6.5 Creed Axis was powder. H4350, IMR 4350, IMR4831, RL17, RL19 all will not work in my rifle. A load of 38.5 grains of IMR 4064 in both my 6.5 (Axis)and .260 Remington (model 11) behind 123 or 140 Horn SST's works. Groups .350 for both rifles at 100 yards and constant hits on 4" square steel plates at 300 yards dead center. My 2 cents worth.
06-20-2018, 12:56 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by wfournier

I have a 12FV in 6.5 and I'm still working on getting the loads figured out but the two 5 shot groups I shot with the best load so far were .6" and .65" at 100 yards. .5" at 200 seems like a stretch to me, that somewhere in the area of .25 MOA, I think expecting that from a factory gun is asking a lot. I did a 20 round ladder test (loaded based on my manual then when doing a little research saw people were loading well above what it listed as the max charge so I loaded some more). The whole group at 200 was probably around 3" but if I drop the first three and last three it shrinks to about 1.75" at 200 for 14 rounds with charge weights between 38 and 42 grains of h4350 and 140g ELD-M.

Mine does seem to prefer certain bullets over others, I broke it in with factory ammo and the 140g winchester match was definitely the best performer. I shot some super performance as well as something Hornady with 130g bergers and both of those were mediocre best groups were probably around an inch with some being a good bit larger. Seating depth might be an issue too, the bergers felt like they were getting pushed into the lands when closing the bolt so maybe they would have been better seated deeper.

.5 at 200 is darn nice for sure and maybe a bit of a stretch BUT, not impossible.
My main concern is the 2" average ( some more some less) at 200 when other people are reporting much tighter groups at that same distance with off the shelf ammo. Especially when the Superformance is reported to be so accurate for others and I am not seeing it. I am still working on loads and getting a bit closer. 1" at 200 is a nice size to shoot for IMO. I can get that, when I do my part, with an unltralight Tikka 30-06 with a 9x scope....

Darrell
06-20-2018, 01:04 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by stomp442

Couple thoughts. First if you are wanting half moa or better accuracy don't waste your money on factory ammo. Get some good quality brass and good quality bullets. Berger or Sierra have consistently shot better for me. Hornady SSTs are just about the most inconsistent bullet you can buy. They work great for hunting under 200 yards but if you are wanting precision performance you are going to have to use precision components. Secondly, I would take a real close look at that scope. I have had way too many issues with Vortex scopes to not mention it. Swap it out with a known good scope and see if things improve. Third check your tang and make sure your tang is floated all the way around. Also make sure the barrel remains floated while in the rest. Sometimes Savage doesn't provide a lot of clearance right at the forend tip and the weight of the rifle sitting in the bag can cause it to touch.

41.5gr of H4350 and a 140 Berger or 142 Sierra seated .025" from the lands has been a pet load that has worked for me in multiple Creedmoors. You should definitely find a good node between 41-42gr of H4350

Thanks. I am not betting the house on factory ammo, never have. I reload all my own and have for about 30+ years. Still working on some recipes. What is so inconsistent about the SST's? I need a hunting round for speed goats and Muleys so it definitely needs to be a hunting round.
I will check the tang. The front rest is just in front of the receiver so I am doubtful I get any contact on the barrel/forend and no bounce from the plastic stock. Although when I run a bipod that may be a concern but I will deal with that then.
I picked 41.5 of H4350 as a starting point based on quite a few other peoples posts who have had great luck with that weight and a 140 pill....it is just a starting point.

Darrell
06-20-2018, 01:10 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbflyer

I think what you have there is an honest report on a factory gun. Good shooting. Try some different bullets in your reloads or some factory match loads. I’ll bet you’ll find you have a consistent 1” gun, maybe a little better even. There’s nothing wrong with that at all.

A lot of folks go out and print a couple of .5 groups and all of a sudden they claim to have a .5 gun. Rarely they do, but most likely not.

Agreed. My .5 at 200 is the best group I have ever shot. But I have some at.6 and ,7 and many under 1" and I am pretty happy with them...of course we all want bug holes at 1k. Right?
I am trying to be realistic in my expectations but always strive for better...both from me and my guns.

Darrell
06-20-2018, 01:13 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98dyna

My glitch with my 6.5 Creed Axis was powder. H4350, IMR 4350, IMR4831, RL17, RL19 all will not work in my rifle. A load of 38.5 grains of IMR 4064 in both my 6.5 (Axis)and .260 Remington (model 11) behind 123 or 140 Horn SST's works. Groups .350 for both rifles at 100 yards and constant hits on 4" square steel plates at 300 yards dead center. My 2 cents worth.

Interesting H4350 is the Holy Grail to most 6.5 CM shooters. But each gun likes what it likes. I have 8lbs of IMR 4064, or whatever is left in a 8lb jug, because the 22-250 loves it. So I will give it a shot.

Darrell
06-20-2018, 08:17 PM
RustyShackle

4064 is great in a 243 win. So probably decent in the 6.5cm.

To reiterate it it sounds like it is shooting acceptable for a factory rifle, I wouldn’t worry too much over the bore, just start trying different loads as suggested above. My 6.5cm really likes Nosler match I haven’t even run anything else through it, so I can’t speak to performance of other manufactures. Not setup to reload for it yet either, still on the fence about that, for as much as I’m using it probably isn’t cost effective to buy the dies.
06-21-2018, 06:25 PM
charlie b

First, for factory ammo I think you are doing great. MOA with the stuff you have tried is probably as good as you will get.

If you want better factory groups go to the match ammo. Federal Gold Medal is my go to stuff if I need to shoot factory. Hornady has some that seem to be good as well, but, I have not tried it.

Bullets for reloading. My .223 is really picky about bullets. Some people claim they can shoot bugholes with any .223 round out there. I can't. Even reloading, if I load std bullets in it, I get 2MOA groups. It doesn't like Hornady match bullets but it loves Sierra Matchkings. It looks like the Norma's will work too. I also dropped group sizes when I switched from H335 to Varget powder.

So, with a little load development or better factory ammo you can probably get to your goal.

As to 'listening' to others on the internet, take it with a grain of salt. I've seen people clain .5 MOA when most of their groups are the size of their fist. They just pick the best three rounds they had that day.

The 6.5CM has garnered enough attention that every Tom, Dick and Harry is shooting it and they have to claim better than .5MOA or no one will congratulate them. It is NOT going to shoot better groups just because it is a 6.5CM.

And, each rifle will like a slightly different combination.

So, first get some good factory match ammo, and then get some good bullets to reload. My .308 seems to like the Hornady ELD-X match bullets.
06-21-2018, 08:35 PM
DT400

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie b

First, for factory ammo I think you are doing great. MOA with the stuff you have tried is probably as good as you will get.

If you want better factory groups go to the match ammo. Federal Gold Medal is my go to stuff if I need to shoot factory. Hornady has some that seem to be good as well, but, I have not tried it.

Bullets for reloading. My .223 is really picky about bullets. Some people claim they can shoot bugholes with any .223 round out there. I can't. Even reloading, if I load std bullets in it, I get 2MOA groups. It doesn't like Hornady match bullets but it loves Sierra Matchkings. It looks like the Norma's will work too. I also dropped group sizes when I switched from H335 to Varget powder.

So, with a little load development or better factory ammo you can probably get to your goal.

As to 'listening' to others on the internet, take it with a grain of salt. I've seen people clain .5 MOA when most of their groups are the size of their fist. They just pick the best three rounds they had that day.

The 6.5CM has garnered enough attention that every Tom, Dick and Harry is shooting it and they have to claim better than .5MOA or no one will congratulate them. It is NOT going to shoot better groups just because it is a 6.5CM.

And, each rifle will like a slightly different combination.

So, first get some good factory match ammo, and then get some good bullets to reload. My .308 seems to like the Hornady ELD-X match bullets.

I take people who claim tiny groups with a grain of salt. But when I run across similar statements about the accuracy they are achieving with factory ammo from different individuals..well..
There are some people tho who really know their s**t and are honest, spend enough time on a site and you can figure out who's who.
None of us constantly shoot tiny groups and we pick and choose the groups we show-off. Point is if it was done once it can be done again and is therefor possible.

I was never really looking for excellent results form factory ammo, it just seemed my groups were bigger than others (claimed).
I ordered some 143 ELD-X's yesterday just to try out...today I went out and worked with some more recipes.
All testing is @200 yds.
The best recipes gave me a 1.2", .8" and .7", for a best .35 MOA. Now I'm on the right track. Only did 3 shot groups...if it isn't close with three it isn't worth wasting components IMO, especially when I can track group size from recipe to recipe.
I don't find an option to post a pic from my computer so you'll just have to trust me......

Darrell
06-22-2018, 12:01 AM
want2ride

With my 6.5 Creedmoors I get the best groups with 142 SMK, 140 ELD-M and 143 ELD-X. 41.5 g of h4350 seems like the sweet spot with all of them. I am under 3/4 moa with all of them at different seating depths. I was never able to get the superformance factory loaded shells to work out under 1.5 moa, and I have never tried the American gunner.

When I tried out the Factory loaded 143 ELD-X and 140 ELD-M I got results similar to my handloads. They were pretty impressive for factory.
06-22-2018, 10:39 AM
charlie b

looks like you answered your own questions. good work.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk
06-22-2018, 11:22 AM
SageRat Shooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by DT400

I was never really looking for excellent results form factory ammo, it just seemed my groups were bigger than others (claimed).
I ordered some 143 ELD-X's yesterday just to try out...today I went out and worked with some more recipes.
All testing is @200 yds.
The best recipes gave me a 1.2", .8" and .7", for a best .35 MOA. Now I'm on the right track. Only did 3 shot groups...if it isn't close with three it isn't worth wasting components IMO, especially when I can track group size from recipe to recipe.
I don't find an option to post a pic from my computer so you'll just have to trust me......

Darrell

Darrell,

I'm shooting that 143 ELD-X in my 260 rem... just wanted to mention a couple things about them from my experience with them. My load is currently 42.8 grains (43 grains in cooler temps obviously that is a MAX load) H4350 and I've got the bullets seated to .004 off the lands now. Started at .04 then to .02 and now .004 which really tightened the groups up. One thing I have found with the 143 ELD-X is that they don't group as well in the 100-200 yard range as they do when you stretch them out to longer distances... Don't know why or what causes that, but I have noticed it in the 500-600 rounds I've sent down range. they seem to do better at 400 yards then they do at 100.

The other thing that crossed my mind was, perhaps the barrel is touching the stock under recoil?? I've had that happen with a few of the stocks that come on Savage rifles... Not sure what the LRH rifle is using for a stock though... It's just a thought...
06-23-2018, 12:45 PM
PhilC

FWIW - box stock 12FV, 6.5CM, 4 - 16 x 44 Viper HSLR, Nosler brass, CCI200, Nosler 129ABLR over 40.6gr RL16 at a measured 185yds. Rounds #13, 14, & 15 through the tube produced this group...

Attachment 4948