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Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Ok, so here is what we have and yes I decided to post pictures this time because everybody thought I was trying to hide something. Or sell some sort of snake oil.
First is a thrust bearing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2565.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2566.jpg[/img]
It goes between the BAS and the cocking sleeve. This is an off the shelf part, nothing special that anyone can get for nearly nothing and yes they will sell individual bearings, no bulk ordering.
The lower part of the thrust bearing sits on top of the cocking sleeve:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2567.jpg[/img]
Next goes in the actual bearing and on top of this is the other part of the bearing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2568.jpg[/img]
And finally the other part of the bearing:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2571.jpg[/img]
Here is a picture of a spacer that is on the BAS to make up the difference of the thickness of the bearing assembly:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2572.jpg[/img]
Then screw it all down.
As you can see the spacer and the bearing are within .01" of each other:
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2569.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/IMG_2570.jpg[/img]
If you are worried about .01" then have the difference made up with your spacer when you have it made.
It is a little lighter and definitely smoothed the bolt lift out. No need to machine anything off the BAS or cocking sleeve as long as you use a spacer under the BAS. The spacer is not an off the shelf part, it was something I had a machinist make for me. Any machinist could duplicate it without much fuss. No clipping of springs, or any of the other stuff I was accused of advocating.
If anyone thinks of anything that might help please feel free to let me know, otherwise enjoy. As soon as the “powers” that be give their blessings I’ll post the link to the bearing so anyone can order one. I just don’t want to post anything that might turn this one into a shit storm like the last thread.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Why not just shorten up the BAS and get rid of that ugly spacer. You can purchase BAS from Savage for $5.00 a piece. Have them shortened by .195 and do a trade in on the screw.
So, checking rotation torque before and after, what are the results?
Number of fireamrs tested on?
No bass masters measurements this time!!
Looks fairly labor intensive to just give away.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Very clear instuctive pix. Thanks.
One question, what is the purpose of the second washer? Why not let the bearing unit ride directly on the BAS? Then the spacer could be thinner.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The spacer is all I will probably be giving away now. The bearings put it over the $ mark for me to just to throw money away to people I don't know. I may still toss some bearings and spacers out there but no where near what I had planned.
The bearings are less than $2 + shipping which ran $4.50 with a bunch of other stuff on the order so it may be cheaper than that for individual ones.
Again this is all contingent on the "powers" that be. I'm sure they will be chimming in here shortly.
Dolomite
Quote:
Why not let the bearing unit ride directly on the BAS? Then the spacer could be thinner.
My BAS isn't as smooth as the other side of the bearing.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Nice engineering. I can't possibly see how this could have less drag than the .38spl./ball bearing method whatsoever since the point of contact is directly in the center (on the .38spl.) and there is 5/6th of the contact area.
edit.....I'd say that your 'clipped spring' was what did this idea in.
There is honestly no insult intended in this post. Keep on trying to do better.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Still say wish I had your "get up and go" Dolomite, because I'm not near "Disabled" as you. I think you know what I mean. Stay well, Dale ;)
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
i like these comments im waiting for one soon.
bob
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Well Dolomite, you sure as he2sticks impressed this old mechanical engineer. The whole project seems well thuoght out. I cannot see anything the least bit dangerous. But then again, my old eyes arnt what they never were.
El Lobo
PS: the Dolomites are a mt. range in Italy arnt they?
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellobo
PS: the Dolomites are a mt. range in Italy arnt they?
That and a mineral found in granite as well as a famous character from a blaxploitation film of the 70's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolemite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaxploitation
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Nice Work!!! I'm definitely interested in trying out this kit!
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
+1 on being impressed! I'm no engineer, but seems like you've eliminated friction between two stationary parts by inserting the rolling balls. Anybody who's moved a gun safe on pipe rollers knows the principle works. Nice bit of work! Hope to see the link for the bearing soon.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Ok, how many times are we (the staff) going to have to nip this in the bud? The fact you sent a letter out via certified mail verifies you acknowledge the potential danger associated with this "kit", yet you continue to try to get people to take the risk of trying it? WTF?
Obviously telling you this is a bad idea and locking/removing the previous threads wasn't enough.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Ok, looking over all this again I'm man enough to admit I initially misunderstood this kit. This kit "should" be reasonably safe and eliminate the ignition issues of the previous kit, but I still question why it's even needed. With 5 ball bearings it has 5-times the contact area of the .38SP case mod that's been around for awhile, and as we all know more contact area = more friction = harder bolt lift. You'll also still need to shorten the BAS accordingly the same as you would the 38SP case mod, so where's the benefit?
Reinventing the wheel?
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I could see where there would be less, or at least similar amount of friction between the two. The bearing in the 38 case drags and on end of the BAS. The only friction on this newer one is the rolling resistance of the 5 bearings. There isn't much to slow or drag on the 5 bearings.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
You Guy's with the older actions have a choice.
Us guy's with the newer actions (cocking indicator) Finally have one choice.
Ain't No Stinkin .38 Kit's For us.......
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFurious
Ok, looking over all this again I'm man enough to admit I initially misunderstood this kit. This kit "should" be reasonably safe and eliminate the ignition issues of the previous kit, but I still question why it's even needed. With 5 ball bearings it has 5-times the contact area of the .38SP case mod that's been around for awhile, and as we all know more contact area = more friction = harder bolt lift. You'll also still need to shorten the BAS accordingly the same as you would the 38SP case mod, so where's the benefit?
Reinventing the wheel?
I really appreciate this.
As for the letter he posted. it was for the previous WASHER ONLY test group I sent out. I admitted in this thread there was a valid concern with it and I sent these letters out to make sure no one continued to use the WASHER ONLY setup for the reasons mentioned.
As Mr Furious said "This kit "should" be reasonably safe and eliminate the ignition issues of the previous kit," the previous kit he is talking about is the one in the linked thread.
As far as whether it is better than the 38 special versions, who knows. I don't do this to try to show people up but I do have my own personal reasons for doing it. A helicopter accident in 2008 did me in. So when I am having a "good" day I do little projects like this to forget about life for a while. All the activity involved in taking pictures today and such is going to cost me a few "good" days. I really don't mind because if I didn't do things like this I would just sit around and probably hate life.
I welcome opinions but please no name calling
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Good on you Dolomite. Keep hanging in there! You have a very positive attitude. Don't let nay sayers get to you.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I'm a total "Newb" to Boltguns & Savages in general, But I've noticed you've taken the time to respond to several of my posts with helpful info & advice. Thank you for that and for sharing your ingenuity. Just my 2 cents...... ;)
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The balls in the thrust bearing rotate so there is no 5x the friction. Tell me how much testing was done with the original.357 case design before it was declared safe? And who did the testing, and how far away from the action was the tester? Was it done with a clamped down rifle and trigge pulled with a string? I havnt heard anything about any testing of that particular design but it is presumed safe by eveyone. There are test methods like the clamp and string that could be done with Supafly's design. After looking over how it is put together I visualy see no safety issues, but I dont think it could hurt to have proper tests run to see if it is safe and if it really does give better bolt lift, which is a really lousy Savage problem which I have currently on my 7x57 build along with a three screw trigger that when adjusted to its best is still marginal.
Those who are currently testing the thrust washer design should take all due precautions when using it untill it is proven safe. Dolomite my friend, you should have done all the testing yourself and over a long period of time before getting anyone else involved and then having them use safe measure like clamp and string.
El Lobo
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellobo
The balls in the thrust bearing rotate so there is no 5x the friction. Tell me how much testing was done with the original.357 case design before it was declared safe? And who did the testing, and how far away from the action was the tester? Was it done with a clamped down rifle and trigge pulled with a string? I havnt heard anything about any testing of that particular design but it is presumed safe by eveyone. There are test methods like the clamp and string that could be done with Supafly's design. After looking over how it is put together I visualy see no safety issues, but I dont think it could hurt to have proper tests run to see if it is safe and if it really does give better bolt lift, which is a really lousy Savage problem which I have currently on my 7x57 build along with a three screw trigger that when adjusted to its best is still marginal.
Those who are currently testing the thrust washer design should take all due precautions when using it untill it is proven safe. Dolomite my friend, you should have done all the testing yourself and over a long period of time before getting anyone else involved and then having them use safe measure like clamp and string.
El Lobo
I agree with you in theory, but seeing that the bolt lug's prevent nasty things from happening and they are fully engaged, I don't see a problem.
BUT...I could be wrong.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
It is impossible to rate this kit without comparing it to the 38/357 case kit. Both are designed to reduce friction between the BAS and the cocking piece sleeve and that is all they do. The friction between the 38/357 case kit single ball bearing and the BAS is EXTREMELY LOW. The friction is so low the bearing does not need to rotate. It is a very hard steel ball that remains smooth while it barely seats into the BAS. It might take about 1/10 of an inch pound to turn.
The two washer and 6 ball kit cannot possibly be any easier to rotate than the 38/357 case kit. Even if it was twice as easy, how would you ever tell?
The separate spacer to go between the BAS and the handle must be fabricated. It is just easier to shorten the BAS.
If a person wants to improve bolt lift further, study the cocking piece pin. The cocking piece pin rubs on the cocking piece, the sleeve, the bolt body and the action. It also rubs on the sear but that isn't what we are discussing here. A 1 piece dual roller cocking piece pin would be a big improvement.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The biggest reason for the spacer is that I generally do not like to do things that are not reversable to firearms. I know that most Savages aren't collectors items but over the years I have seen people do some pretty nasty things done to what would be collector firearms. Because of this anything I do to any firearm I try not to make it permanent. Yeah, for most people it would be easier just to shorten the BAS but I, personanlly, do not like to do things like that. And if I do I make sure I am 100% positive sure it will work after the modification.
ellobo,
No one is involed in the testing of this idea. I just threw it up here for all to see what I did. I got hammered for asking peole to test a previous design before posting it so from now on I am not going to ask anyone to test anything for me. People can do waht they want with what I have posted but I am not going to be a party to it anymore.
As I said before everyone here is an adult and are quite capable of making your own judgements and taking their own precautions.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolomite_supafly
The biggest reason for the spacer is that I generally do not like to do things that are not reversable to firearms. I know that most Savages aren't collectors items but over the years I have seen people do some pretty nasty things done to what would be collector firearms. Because of this anything I do to any firearm I try not to make it permanent. Yeah, for most people it would be easier just to shorten the BAS but I, personanlly, do not like to do things like that. And if I do I make sure I am 100% positive sure it will work after the modification.
ellobo,
No one is involed in the testing of this idea. I just threw it up here for all to see what I did. I got hammered for asking peole to test a previous design before posting it so from now on I am not going to ask anyone to test anything for me. People can do waht they want with what I have posted but I am not going to be a party to it anymore.
As I said before everyone here is an adult and are quite capable of making your own judgements and taking their own precautions.
Dolomite
Gentlemen the man is trying to help all of us. Instead of giving him crap and shooting it down if you don't like it just keep your mouth shut and move along. He is not hurting you in any way and those of us that would like to try this are very appreciative of his time and effort.
Thanks Dolomite,
Merritt
SGT USMC vet.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Dolomite,
Does adding the spacer push the bolthandle back far enough to cause it to hit the stock or the cutout in the action when you ope/close the bolt? Just tryin to get a mental pic of it in action(so to speak). The other question I have is with the bolthandle hole being shaped so the fits perfectly(and flush) onto the end of the bolt, does the spacer move it back too far to fit as expected?
I am guessing that you're thinking that the 5 bearings will share the pressure instead of it being loaded on just 1 bearing. SO if the weight/pressure is evenly distributed it should be easier. Seems like a good theory, and definately one worth testing.
I think most of us understand your real reasoning behind doing this, and appreciate your willingness to try it. I do agree that the other kit seemed like it could be unsafe in some rifles, but this one seems safe enough to me. Basically very similar to a normal lift kit and just dont have to cut the bolt. I would like to see a finished pic of it with the washer installed though, and of course the numbers too.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I'm no Mech-Eng. (Thank you Lord) ;D just a regular guy that is happy to get up on the green side of the grass everyday.
However, when I look at the design of the 5 bearing gizmo, my concern is that on the harder kicker guns, how are the bearings going to hold up? Are they going to remain round or will they have any tendency to become out-of-round?
In addition, the plastic that they sit in....is there a possibility that this could crack? and could this crack go un-noticed to the point where it would work for a certain number of rounds, and then gall and bind up the bolt?
Hey, for deer hunting it's no big deal. For hog hunting when that big 'ol pig is comin right at ya, and your chambering that second round, it may make a difference.
Dave
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
The fact that it works with the new bolts is super. Simple math proves that the bearing kit + the BAS washer = the same pressure on the spring and the same amount of travel. This kit is no more dangerous than the original bolt design. I am a mechanical engineer, for what little it's worth, and it doesn't take a mechanical engineer to do the math.
The BAS washer by itself.................not good.
And then again dolomite admitted this quickly.
I'd still take one for my new FCP-K and gladly pay for it.
I still say nice work, even if you use it in an older gun in place of the .38spl kit.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdog06
Dolomite,
Does adding the spacer push the bolthandle back far enough to cause it to hit the stock or the cutout in the action when you ope/close the bolt? Just tryin to get a mental pic of it in action(so to speak). The other question I have is with the bolthandle hole being shaped so the fits perfectly(and flush) onto the end of the bolt, does the spacer move it back too far to fit as expected?
I am guessing that you're thinking that the 5 bearings will share the pressure instead of it being loaded on just 1 bearing. SO if the weight/pressure is evenly distributed it should be easier. Seems like a good theory, and definately one worth testing.
I think most of us understand your real reasoning behind doing this, and appreciate your willingness to try it. I do agree that the other kit seemed like it could be unsafe in some rifles, but this one seems safe enough to me. Basically very similar to a normal lift kit and just dont have to cut the bolt. I would like to see a finished pic of it with the washer installed though, and of course the numbers too.
I'll try to get some pictures of the bolt installed in the gun when I can, I really need to take it easy today. But here are pictures of the washer installed and tighten on the bolt.
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/boltpic3.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/boltpic2.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v446/Adyth/Firearms%20related/boltpic1.jpg[/img]
On my rifle there are no ill effect of the additional .195". It clears the PDS/T stock I have. The spacer is the same diamter as the BAS so the diamter shouldn't be an issue either. The spacer doesn't change the way the bolt handle ataches to the bolt itself, the bolt handle is still in the same position as before.
As for the longevity of the setup I don't know. I can say that these are ball bearings so if the orginal 38 special ball bearing idea has held up without deforming them I can't see why this wouldn't but who knows, only time will tell. I can see the plastic piece being an issue down the road though because I am unsure how solvents willl affect it or even grease for that matter. To remove the plastic carrier as well as make a similar setup for the cocking indicator bolts something else probably needs to be done. What I was thinking was machine the bottom of the BAS and put a small groove for the bearings to ride in then use the same size groove in a plate that covers the cocking piece. Basically having two grooved surfaces for the bearings to ride in but leave enough clearance so the BAS and cocking sleeve do not touch each other. The pressure of the spring would hold them in place. I think this would work and help out those with the new cocking indicator bolts.
I am not in this to make money, never was. I am in it to help out Savages as well as myself for the reasons I have mentioned before.
I do not own a shop or anything other than the tools most of you on this board already have.
I appreciate everybody for not turning this thread into the shit storm the previous thread was. And yes I admit the previous thread had a version that had issues that could have been bad and that is why the 8 people who got the previous version had certified letters sent to them notifying them as well as a SASE for them to send the part back. That is where the letter Mr Furious posted came from, the request quit using the previous part and return it at no cost to them.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
If the powers that be ok it I'll post the info for the bearing.
They took it down when they posted the letter.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
the smartest man i ever knew was a electrian with a 3rd grade education. he could figure out anything give him enough time. in the 30s he worked on construction and setting up of power plants. guess who the young engineers went to when they couldnt figure something out. yep leo the electrician. he did every thing from building houses to electronics. when he built a home, in the winter instead of setting around he would build a lot of the house in his garage.
leo knew about all 480 3ph electical stuff, wild legs in 3ph which i never did even understand. he handled his finances in the same way died a well off old goat. i miss him every day just a fine fine gentleman.
as i read dolomites theories and the man himself i find someone i admire greatly. we need these kind of folks to learn from. he can take hostile critizsim i know that.
good going dolomite
bob
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Tag. Definately interested in trying this out. There are a lot of machine shops in my area, i'm sure I could find a guy to machine a BAS spacer for me, or even trim the BAS for me, I can always order another BAS and have it as a backup just in case I want to revert back to the stock form.
Anything that'll smooth up my bolt on my 10, it's got several thousand rounds through it now, and it's a lot better than it used to be, but i'd like for it to be super smooth.
Branden
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Just my 2 cents, and a bit of constructive criticism.
What is accomplished in the 38 case with a bearing is that it has a smaller surface area. Not that the ball bearing has anything to do with friction, but that it places the turning force on a smaller point. You could accomplish the same thing buy making a spacer to fit in the cocking piece and place a pointed surface to contact the BAS. It functions in the same way as when someone places something on a pivot, and takes a steel rod and points it up. The best example I can think of is a wind flag. If you look at wind flags they usually take the contact point and point it up to reduces the surface area. Another example is a shooting rest the feet are pointed to make a smaller surface area, and allow them to turn, it also digs into the concrete do to them being harder, but for this discussion this is a mute point. Another flaw that people do is the drill a divot into the back action screw for the ball bearing to ride in, and they actually increased the surface area, and defeated the purpose.
I will say that the thrust bearing is a great way to go, (If fact you are somewhat close in design to what SSS has done to for the accu-stock guns. They have used their idea ever since they have come out.) but I see that there could be a flaw in your idea. The point to making a kit such as this is for the newer accu-stock gun with there rear cocking indicator to pass through. Maybe I am wrong but it looks like the hole in the bearing and the washers is too small for the cocking indicator to go through. The only question I have for the spacer is ,with it installed does the BAS partly cover the safety?
IMO you need one of the newer bolts with the cocking indicator to test your invention. Placing the kit you have in an older style non cocking indicator bolt is just reinventing the wheel, with a higher cost fix than that of the old tried and trued. The more ball bearings equate into more surface area, and increased bolt lift over the single bearing. It does still lower the bolt lift force, and it can be used on the newer guns.
Again not to flame you, or stir the pot, it is just constructive criticism, if I was looking to do gunsmith work, or invent new parts, I would first go out and spend some money into proper tools to test, and make the parts. To truly tell if your making a difference you need to find better testing methods than a fish scale. If you truly what to know what your accomplishing, you need to be scientific with your research. You need the parts you are building the fix for, and you need a good accurate repeatable test procedures. I would also advise you to contact MR. F before you did anything on this site with giving away of your products.
And to all the Neigh sayers, that states that the people are holding him back, I offer you this; due to this being presented on this forum, it places legal liability onto the staff, if they say nothing. The problem is not that he is inventing a new product, (we all greatly encourage that.) but it is the way that he has presented these without the proper testing.(this thread is better than the last but still in question) In today money hungry lawyer friendly world people will try to get money out of anyway they can, and if someone would have an accident that was caused with his product, they sure would try to come back on this site. The staff is only policing this up because of the liability issues, and dang it, no one what to see anyone get hurt.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Dolomite, thanks for the pics of it. Forget about my questions about the clearance in the stock. I wasnt thinking straight and forgot the bolthandle will still be in its same positioning on the bolt, with the spacer behind it. SO the clearances should be fine, except for maybe the safety as Pat just mentioned.
Are you gonna compare a normal lift kit(single bearing 38 case type) to this one on different guns to see which has the most effect on bolt lift? Sure you are, and I am curious to read about your results.
Great info you mention Pat. Thanks for explaining some of the issues for those that dont realize it.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by 82boy
Just my 2 cents, and a bit of constructive criticism.
What is accomplished in the 38 case with a bearing is that it has a smaller surface area. Not that the ball bearing has anything to do with friction, but that it places the turning force on a smaller point. You could accomplish the same thing buy making a spacer to fit in the cocking piece and place a pointed surface to contact the BAS. It functions in the same way as when someone places something on a pivot, and takes a steel rod and points it up. The best example I can think of is a wind flag. If you look at wind flags they usually take the contact point and point it up to reduces the surface area. Another example is a shooting rest the feet are pointed to make a smaller surface area, and allow them to turn, it also digs into the concrete do to them being harder, but for this discussion this is a mute point. Another flaw that people do is the drill a divot into the back action screw for the ball bearing to ride in, and they actually increased the surface area, and defeated the purpose.
I will say that the thrust bearing is a great way to go, (If fact you are somewhat close in design to what SSS has done to for the accu-stock guns. They have used their idea ever since they have come out.) but I see that there could be a flaw in your idea. The point to making a kit such as this is for the newer accu-stock gun with there rear cocking indicator to pass through. Maybe I am wrong but it looks like the hole in the bearing and the washers is too small for the cocking indicator to go through. The only question I have for the spacer is ,with it installed does the BAS partly cover the safety? The spacer does not cause the BAS to cover the safety on a Stevens 200 action and the safety is still working just fine depite the additional .185" added to the length of the BAS. You are correct in that the hole on this is in fact too small, the cocking indicators on new bolts are rounghly .245" and this bearing has only a .125" ID but LeeH is going to try to drill these out to .25". I would have tired but unfortunately I can't because of my health issues right at this moment. We will see how it works out for LeeH. The previous idea I had seemed like it would work with all actions until people brought up valid points and I admitted it, sent out emails, PM's and certified letters acknowledging this. This version WILL NOT work with cocking indicator bolts and I never said that it would in THIS thread. I did in the previous thread but that one is over and done with as far as I am concerned and this is a whole new thread about something different. Either way, live and learn, nothing ventured nothing gained, yada, yada, yada.
IMO you need one of the newer bolts with the cocking indicator to test your invention. Placing the kit you have in an older style non cocking indicator bolt is just reinventing the wheel, with a higher cost fix than that of the old tried and trued. The more ball bearings equate into more surface area, and increased bolt lift over the single bearing. It does still lower the bolt lift force, and it can be used on the newer guns. Personally, I disagree with this because the bearing in the 38 special kit drags while the bearing here should in fact roll.
Again not to flame you, or stir the pot, it is just constructive criticism, if I was looking to do gunsmith work I'm not, or invent new parts not planning to do this either, I would first go out and spend some money into proper tools to test, and make the parts. To truly tell if your making a difference you need to find better testing methods than a fish scale Agreed and I am not going to make excuses as to why. If you truly what to know what your accomplishing, you need to be scientific with your research. You need the parts you are building the fix for, and you need a good accurate repeatable test procedures Again I totally agree. I would also advise you to contact MR. F before you did anything on this site with giving away of your products. I have previously given stuff away on this site without issue but evidentally I was trying to "just skirts some of the rules on this website" by offering something for free according to a moderator in the other thread. Because of this I am just not going to give anything away, period end of story. This is the reason I posted where the bearing could be bought so they could if they choose. Unfortunately Mr Furious felt the need to delete it. Not trying to act like I am stomping my feet in a temper tantrum or anything like that but I will not get accused of "just skirts some of the rules on this website" again. That wasn't my intent in the begining and now this is the best way to keep from being accused of it.
And to all the Neigh sayers, that states that the people are holding him back, I do not believe you were holding me back in any way, I was able to get valuable information before the previous thread took on a whole new vibe with the name calling I offer you this; due to this being presented on this forum, it places legal liability onto the staff, if they say nothing. The problem is not that he is inventing a new product, (we all greatly encourage that.) but it is the way that he has presented these without the proper testing.(this thread is better than the last but still in question)I am just presenting things for people to look over, not advocating anything just presenting ideas In today money hungry lawyer friendly world people will try to get money out of anyway they can, and if someone would have an accident that was caused with his product, they sure would try to come back on this site. The staff is only policing this up because of the liability issues, and dang it, no one what to see anyone get hurt. I absolutely agree, what we do not need is another pro gun media taken away for any reason. Even if you do not agree with those here at least there is a "here" because one day there may not be. And ask any of the testers, including Greg, if safety was not my concern.
You have always been a corgile, profeesional person when dealing with me and I really appreciate it. This is the kind of discussin we need to move things forward and not dwell on the past.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I am starting to feel the "love" again in this thread.... Thats a good thing ;)
I think what the mods were meaning is that if you were giving away a proven safe and working product there would not have been a problem. It would be no different than the free giveaway of the piano wire for the 3screw triggers, or the stuff cowboyarcher gives away at times. They are all being done for different reasons but no rules were broken that I can find written. The mods main issue that made this different was the safety factor, and the fact that it was given out for others to test instead of given out as an already tested product. Some people have different ways of expressing what they mean, and some are more harsh than others, but I think they all meant the same basic thing as a whole, and Pat pretty much eluded to it in his last paragraph. Hopefully that can be forgotten and forgiven so we can concentrate on your new kit, which is a safe kit from what can be seen.
I really hope this thing works for you, and hopefully then maybe a write-up on it can be put in the articles section for everone to read in the future.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdog06
I am starting to feel the "love" again in this thread.... Thats a good thing ;)
I think what the mods were meaning is that if you were giving away a proven safe and working product there would not have been a problem. It would be no different than the free giveaway of the piano wire for the 3screw triggers, or the stuff cowboyarcher gives away at times. They are all being done for different reasons but no rules were broken that I can find written. The mods main issue that made this different was the safety factor, and the fact that it was given out for others to test instead of given out as an already tested product. Some people have different ways of expressing what they mean, and some are more harsh than others, but I think they all meant the same basic thing as a whole, and Pat pretty much eluded to it in his last paragraph. Hopefully that can be forgotten and forgiven so we can concentrate on your new kit, which is a safe kit from what can be seen.
I really hope this thing works for you, and hopefully then maybe a write-up on it can be put in the articles section for everone to read in the future.
I could not have saud it better, you hit the nail on the head, big time! Yes, we would love to see a write up,on what you discover.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I have two of the new actions and I am ordering the bearings as we speak.
The only problem as I see it, is reaming/drilling the center holes to clear the
cocking indicator which is a extension of the firing pin.
No problem doing that on this end.
FINALLY WE HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!!
Way to go Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Dolomite I would be interested in buying two of the spacers and thanks for all the effort you have put into this ::)
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
If this works, maybe it will cut my wait times for SSS to T&T my actions :).
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
1. I am not selling the spacers. As far as giving them away as I had planned, I will not do that either for fear of someone installing them incorrectly and injuring themselves with something I provided.
2. This in no way replaces anything related to a T&T. A T&T is a well thought out procedure that requires more than just a few drop in parts to work and this in no way is meant to replace it.
The thickness you need is in the pictures and the OD is .850" to match the OD of the BAS for a finished look. The through hole is .500". Almost any shop should be able to duplicate it for a reasonable amount of money. The other option is to have your BAS reduced the same amount as the spacer. Either way you will need to free up the space taken up by the bearing. I have provided all the information needed to duplicate what I have done, but with that you are on your own.
I will drop any more mention of the previous thread or the goings on in it. Everything has been done to make things right so there is no reason to bring it up anymore.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I'm new to Savages so just to clarify things for me. I've noticed that my bolt feels really "Tight" when I start to lift it to chamber a round. Just in the first quarter of upward movement. Is this what the lift kit helps eliminate. Not tryin to hijack the thread just tryin to help understand what the issue is.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeH
I have two of the new actions and I am ordering the bearings as we speak.
The only problem as I see it, is reaming/drilling the center holes to clear the
cocking indicator which is a extension of the firing pin.
No problem doing that on this end.
FINALLY WE HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!!
Way to go Dolomite
The bearing's were shipped today, as soon as I can get them reamed and the spacer made I WILL
post a Range report even though the weather here has been REALLY nasty.
Rain, Shine, or a Stinkin Blizzard, I will make it to the Range.
I am trying to find a trigger pull Gage so I can give accurate bolt lift reading's.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
..Gordon, you thought of my idea..lol..Only I was looking for a needle bearing... ;)...I have a inlaw that is in the bearing business I just haven't had time to pick his brain..lol..
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
WOW, cool I was searching around for bearings with races and happened to find these. Thought I would buy them to see if they would work.
Only time will tell if they are any better than anything previously out there.
And hi-teck:
I never said anything about a fish scale in this thread nor did I make any claims other than it seemed to work on my rifle. If you want data feel free to test away and post your results, I for one would like to see it. I only posted the info for people to make their own decisions. I made no promises that anyone would get all the riches in the world or to be surrounded by beautiful women if they installed these. ;D
As far as the controversial thread you have been following this thread has nothing to do with the previous one and this one has only been going on a little over a day so far. The previous thread has nothing to do with this one and the previous thread is over and done with, locked and all of the 8 testers have been notified of the problems that came to light. Again, that was a seperate idea and not this one. People are having a hard time forgetting and seem to want to compare the two. There is no comaprison between this one and the previous one. Also, unless you are a moderator or one of the 8 testers (you were not) you never even saw the part from the previous thread.
Dolomite
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
dolomite, I just Pm'd you however i'm not sure if I did it right. I've never PM's on this site, so what happened after I hit send threw me off. PM me if you didn't get it please.
Branden
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I promised myself I would not interfere anymore in these threds that seemed to have everybody worked up, but now I am going to intervene. It doesn't bother me that you want to tinker and make the world better, however your methods are what got me upset. I apologize for coming off unprofessional, but maybe the following will cast some light where I come from.
Your first idea was very questionable from a safety standpoint, and I am glad that you 86'd it. It raised more questions than answers. Your second idea is more favorable, but it is hardly fresh, as I devised the same thing as soon as the new cocking indicator models came out on the American Classics 2 years ago.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48...ustbearing.jpg
I never bothered posting a picture, frankly because not many were out yet and there was no immediate need. This version uses 11- 3/32" ball bearings in a custom made race.
You have created quite a stir amongst those who want to learn more about this and others who question what your role is. Your "testers" have no established protocol or scope of parameters to lend any credibility to what's going on. It's like the blind leading the blind. Like anything scientific, there are proper and accepted ways to experiment and collect data. I can see where you are lacking in this department and I have decided before this thing gets ugly, I will help you out.
In grade school we had science fairs that were based on experiments of the student's choice, but the format was always the same.This is how is was laid out:
1. OBJECTIVE: decribe what you are attempting to acheive.
2. HYPOTHESIS: decribe what you think will happen with limited observation.
3. METHODS: describe your methods for testing and the equipment you used.
4. RESULTS: report what actually happened supported with data.
5. SUMMARY: summarize the situation explaining why, or why not, the results were different than what was hypothesised.
Over the years I have gathered more than enough data for this, so I will lead by example.
[color=navy]1. OBJECTIVE: to establish a way to reduce the cocking effort required to cycle/cock a Savage rifle by reducing friction.
HYPOTHESIS: by reducing the friction on the bolt assembly screw where it contacts the cocking sleeve on the periphery can reduce the amount of efforts needed to cock and close the bolt.
METHODS: I will use ball bearings as a means of friction reduction and will collect data using torque values gathered with a Sturtevant Richmont inch/lb beam style torque wrench, model M 50-1. To eliminate as much human error as possible, I will chuck the action in a lathe chuck and support the torque wrench with a solid support to get consistant reading.All tests will use a bolt assembly screw shortened the same amount of what the bearing will take up.
[img width=600 height=450]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/sharp-shooter/torktest.jpg[/img]
RESULTS: The data collected here was derived from 36 different actions representing a cross section obtained from specimens manufactured from approximately 1997 to 2008. These numbers represent the average of operations.
COCKING EFFORT: 22.30 in/lbs.
CLOSING EFFORT: 13.5 in/lbs.
OPENING EFFORT(already cocked): 17.9 in/lbs.
notes: The hardest to cycle measured in @30 in/lbs, the esiest @ 18 in/lbs. I consider these to be the extreme, with most being in the 20 in/lbs range.
The following data was collected from 1 speciman using the 2 types of bearings to reduce friction.
Efforts involved in cycling operation
Observations made on a Savage model 116 serial# G893xxx
1.operation. 2.before mod(stock). 3.w/single centered ball bearing. 4.w/ thrust bearing. 5.Trued&timed w/no mod. 6.Trued&timed w/thrust bearing. 7.Trued &timed w/single centered ball bearing.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
cocking effort 20 in/lbs. 18 19 14 13 12
closing effort 16 14 15 10 8 8
re-open effort 16 14 15 12 10 9
SUMMARY: These tests conclude that a single centered ball bearing reduces more friction that multiple ball thrust bearing. Other factors besides friction affect the efforts of cycling due to the variant geometry of the various components of the fire control system. This test does not address the several other points of friction that also contribute to cycling efforts. The trued & timed action was included in this test to demonstrate the the consistancy of what a single centered ball would reduce in friction only. It appears through this test and many others that I have checked to reduce all the cycling efforts only by 2 in/lbs.
This data was collected long before I publicly shared the idea of the ".38 case and ball bearing tip". Before that, I made the first ones turning a steel "case" and drilled it for a ball bearing. Although it was more precise, it did not work any better than an old .357 case cut down and a ball bearing expoxied in the primer pocket. It was alot less work, not to mention cheap. As far as shortening the bolt assembly screw, it is less work than fabricating a spacer of specific size, although the spacer will work.
These are my findings; like it or not, you don't have to take my word for it, so feel free to do what ever you want. It took quite some time for me to dig out all my notes and compile this, so I hope you appreciate it.
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Re: Bolt lift kit...this time with pictures
I really appreciate the post sharpshooter. You have answered a question I have been pondering since I joined this forum. Some of us dumb old country boys have to have the meat laid out in front of us " got something to do with being from Missouri ". One thing for sure you have sold me on your T&T service. I really do appreciate you posting the number's, that is like putting the icing on the cake ;)