I 'm trying to find any information on what Savage have for accuracy on their Target rifles. Do they have any sort of guarantee for target rifles to shoot as match/target rifles should or its just general 1.75" like on 11 model?
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I 'm trying to find any information on what Savage have for accuracy on their Target rifles. Do they have any sort of guarantee for target rifles to shoot as match/target rifles should or its just general 1.75" like on 11 model?
Nope, no guaranteeQuote:
Originally Posted by jinx-)
It will shoot the same as any similar factory Savage.
Most out of box Savage rifles will shoot 1/2 MOA.
I see... So if my target rifle shoots 1 - 1.5 MOA I just should take it, no point to contact Savage...
I don't shoot factory ammo but I have NEVER had a Savage I could not get to shoot under .5MOA I don't know what ammo you are using in your mdl.11 but that should shoot under 1 MOA if you are able to do your part. I have shot groups with my target actions as small as .110 and most of mine shoot between .2 & .3" on a regular basis.
Its brand new Savage LRP, so far I had 80 rounds down tube, it only shoots good out of clean barrel, it builds up copper quickly, it takes more then an hour using KG-12 and nylon brush to get rid of embedded copper. So far I tried Sierra, Nosler and Lapua bullets, using RL-15, RL-17, RL-22, H-Varget and H-4831SC powders, also using Lapua and Remington brass, all brass neck turned and weighted all bullets weighted and sorted by ogive. From clean barrel first 3 shots not counting fouling shot, make one shot hole, after that it shoots 1 - 1.5 MOA.
To start,
With only 80 rounds the barrel is not brook in yet. About every Savage I have ever owned started shooting its best after 100 to 150 rounds down the tube.
Stop cleaning it, Every Factory Savage barrel I have ever seen shoots best dirty. They will not settle down until you get about about 20 rounds down the tube. Don't worry about the way the barrel coppers up. If you ever look at a factory Savage barrel with a bore scope you would see why, they have tons of chatter marks, but that is OK they shoot very well. I would worry more about carbon build up. The barrel doesn't have to be spotless to shoot good.
Your doing to much, you don't need to do all that your doing to your ammo to make them shoot good. You never mentioned your experience level, or equipment. What kind of rest are you using ? Are you using wind flags? Have you ever shot a rifle before? Have you tried different seating depths? Have your tried a different scope? (95% of all accuracy problems are scope related, just because it is new, or a brand name doesn't mean it is good.) Have you double checked the scope mounting points? (Many bases use screws that are too long, they bottom out against the barrel, and the base is not tight.)
Savage, (As with most manufactures.) can not and will not guarantee a gun to shoot a certain way. There is so many different variables that are not the gun, to guarantee. If you send the gun back to Savage, they will take it to there in door range, strap it down in a vise with a 4 power scope, at 100 yards, if the gun shoots 3 shots in a 1/2 inch they will call it good and send it back to you. That is their standard of accuracy.
How are you shooting a 1 -1.5 MOA target, lets put it into a more precise measurement. At what yardage, are you shooting at, and what does a 5 shot group measure? What weight of bullets and style are you shooting? Many VLD bullets do not shoot well at short yardages, but they excel out at farther yardages. How are you measuring these groups?
The gun has a ton of potential, but there is a lot of questions that need to be answered to figure out where the problem is at. With a good shooter, using proper equipment, and with a tuned load, the gun should shoot under 1/2 MOA all day long.
Most shooters shoot at 100 yards, well the gun is not designed for that type of shooting. The gun is called a 12 Long Range Precision because it has a fast rate of twist, and it is designed to shoot heavy VLD bullets long distance. (600-1000 yards.) It very well could produce great 100 yard groups, and that would be an added bonus.
It sounds like your barrel may be a good candidate for firelapping. If you are shooting a 30 caliber it can be difficult sometimes to find the "Tubb" kits or anything similar. An alternative way is to purchase grinding compound in several very fine grades and using cast bullets, roll them in the various compounds. Shooting approx. 5-8 rounds for each compound starting with the most aggressive. Clean between each compound string. Use a starting load for the bullet with slow powders or another way would be to use pistol powder such as Red Dot or Unique and load with approx 10-11 grains. The rounds do not need to be fast to work. Your just looking for the bullet to exit the barrel. My description is overly simplified and googling "Firelapping" will get you more complete information to include the compound abrasive numbers most satisfactory and other loading advice. If you can find "David Tubbs Final Finish" product it greatly simplifies the procedure as it has complete instructions included. Good Luck.
Slim
Experience level: no problem to keep 5 shots 0.25"@ 100, 600 yards 2.8" - 3"
Using bipod and rear bag, shooting of bench, flags yes use them all the time.
Optics remove it from rifle which shoots 0.25".
This gun is not designed to shoot VLD or any 140 grain bullets, the chamber is cut using standard 260 reamer suited for 120 gr hunting bullets, seating 140 gr Bergers will push them way below datum line.
here are 300 yards 5 shots no wind cottony seeds from nearby trees where slowly moving through the air, I would say perfect condition.
[img width=600 height=450]http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/787/p1050336.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=450]http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7976/p1050331f.jpg[/img]
Copper was embedded in the barrel when I shot those groups.
I did some fire lapping using KG-2 and this instructions http://www.cleenboreusa.com/kg/firelapping.asp
I used IMR Trail Boss for fire lapping rounds.
This barrel must be replaced, to shoot long range freebore must be extended also HS stock needs to be skin bedded.
I have Savage 111 model in 270 WIN it shoots 1/2 MOA no problem, and doesn't create copper fouling, so I think you are misled that copper is good for accuracy...
Problem with copper, it changes its state more quickly then steel, so you groups will suffer as soon as barrel warms up from the first shot.
Here I shot it at 100 yards, good groups from clean barrel.
http://img607.imageshack.us/i/hundredyard1.jpg
http://img813.imageshack.us/i/hundredyard2.jpg
http://img607.imageshack.us/i/hundredyard1.jpg/
http://img813.imageshack.us/i/hundredyard2.jpg/
So... in less than 80 rounds, you've tried three different brands of bullets, five different kinds of powders, and two different kinds of brass. And fire-lapped it. Thats an awful lot of variables to have tried in so few rounds.
I think you misinterpreted what I said about the chamber vs. what say, a 6.5-08 or .260 purpose built for long VLDs would have. People shoot 140gn bullets from mag-length loads in a .260 Rem every weekend of the year, all over the country. It's not optimal, and its why I opted for a 6.5 CM instead, but its definitely not going to stop you either. A fair number of tactical shooters do just exactly that with mag length ammo out of custom bolt guns and AR-10 based gas-guns.
Slow the heck down, quit ram/jamming around, stop assuming because you got some other rifle to shoot well that you automatically know how to shoot this one, and that everything in the world from the action dimensions to the recoil lug to the stock bedding to the chamber must be f-ed up on your one particular rifle. I'm not saying that it *isn't* the rifle, but that because you're jumping around like a fart in a skillet from one thing to the next so quickly you'd never know. Sometimes a particular gun doesn't respond the way we expect. Sometimes its the gun... but I can count the times thats been the case on one hand with several fingers left over. Usually it was me stumbling about doing something that made sense at the time but seemed really stupid later ::)
If you can find some locally, get some good factory match ammo or else go with a known-good handload - one known to work in multiple rifles. Two that come to mind are a 139 Scenar or S142MK over 38.0gn Varget, seated 0.020 off the lands, or 42-44gn of H4350 behind the same bullets, same seating depth. The Varget load may be a little slow, but it should stuff 'em right in there.
If you still can't get the thing to respond, call Savage Arms and get ahold of Effie Sullivan - hopefully she can help you out. Personally, if it were me, after you jumped the gun and fire-lapped the barrel - you own it, period, and they'd be well within their rights to say 'Not our problem anymore'. I think they (Savage) have been more than generous with people even so; you might not be on your own just yet. They ain't going to re-chamber the barrel with a longer throat, though. They most likely have the one chamber reamer, set for the one throat length.
There is no point in sending it to Savage, waste of money on shipping, you can defend Savage as long as you like, because in your mind they can't make crap, but everyone does, so just open your ears and listen. I have other rifles to shoot great, not just the Savage 111 I mentioned, I have Remington 700 varmint shoots bug-holes, I have Tikka T3 tactical great shooter, TC ICON PH, but I wanted target gun so I got this piece of CM metal. So it doesn't shoot so I will use its action and trigger, then rebuild it to work as Target Long Range Precision should. Right now its just very heavy mid range hunting stick or target rifle wannabe, targeted at customers who don't want spend 2 - 3 K on target rifle. When I was buying it I was aware on what I'm getting into, had bad experience with my previous Savage purchase, but I bought it anyway,so I just proved myself one more time it is crap, do you think I'll do it again??? Why Savage can't guarantee to shoot 0.5 or 1 MOA because in their policy 1.75" @100 is OK, having picture of nail driven by a bullet is impressive, but guarantee that their rifles can do that is no-no.
I think I'm done here, end of discussion.
About 139 - 140 grain bullets, if you seat them pass datum line it will create dangerous pressure, do it at your own risk. Chamber is not suited for heavy target bullets.
Good riddance.
Is it even possible to test that many variables in 80 rounds? usually the first hundred or two I test the bullets I think it will like and just enjoys shooting the new gun. First few types of loads I try to keep the same. I.E. same powder with same bullet only change charge weights or COAL. My last build of a 6.5X47 lapua would not shoot SMK 120's at all with varget ( about 1 1/2" groups) until it got up into the higher pressure's ( 2 grains under max) and then it turned into a smoker (nothing over 1/2"). just takes time and the right load. I've also had days where a proven load wouldn't group worth a darn and the next day shoot bugholes. Some days things just don't want to work out. But thanks for not buying savage actions anymore. I'm having a hard time finding another tgt action and less people buying them makes it easier for me to get it.
The action is great, trigger is good, love the pull, I'm not complaining about any of them, and I'm not giving up on barrel yet, I'll get more firelapping done, I'm getting lighter bullets, ordered 123 gr A-Max and Devcon plastic steel putty, I will get its action bedded to have equal pressure, I'll test it again when time permits, so this is ongoing project.
My best groups with my lrpv 223 were about .75". I then read about how the torque on the action screws affected accuracy. I tightened the front and middle screws to 30 in lbs. I then shot groups while adjusting the rear screw setting from 10 in lbs to 30 in lbs in 5 in lb increments. The groups from just adjusting the rear torque setting were from over 1" to .4".
Here is the article that I read;
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...rque-settings/
Torque, done that, fron set to 35 inch/pound, rear to 30.
I have started off with 8" groups and produced sub MOA groups! I have over 8 savages producing sub MOA groups!Quote:
I see... So if my target rifle shoots 1 - 1.5 MOA I just should take it, no point to contact Savage...
Gotta work a load for it.
Send it to me, I will make it happen!
Jinx, why do you come on here throwing a tantrum, saying the rifle must be junk, and you are just going to rebarrel it, then in the next post talk about how you are going to keep trying? It sounds like a frustrated 5 year old trying to put a toy train together. Some of these people are top notch shooters and have been around Savages for a very long time. Use the advice given, or end your headache and rebarrel the thing! My LRP was excellent again this morning with 123 Amax and RL19. I haven't gotten a group with test loads over .75" and nothing under. 4" but that is just me being the shooter! I put anther 18 rounds through it, and can find nothing to complain about.
jinx, I know how frustrating it is when you can't pinpoint an accuracy problem. Believe it or not, they are trying to help you. Eliminating all possible causes first, is a must. Step back, take a deep breath refocus, and we will help you through it. :)
frustrating yes, feels like I wasted 1K for nothing... here is what max seating depth looks like in my chamber using 140 grain bullets, that's touching lands.
[img width=600 height=330]http://imageshack.us/m/851/7648/bulseatd.jpg[/img]
one bullet is 140 gr Nosler CC other 139 gr Lapua Scenar
Sell the barrel.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the .260 Remington.
In order to fit in most short action magazines, the regular .260 reamers are short throated and end up seating the bullets way deep into the case. It's not ideal, but in and of itself, not dangerous. Factory .260 ammo loaded for 140grn bullets comes this way, and as another example, pretty much every single round of 5.56 or .223 Rem ammo loaded with 75-77gn mag-length ammo is like that.
In the situation of the .260 Rem, the problem comes from the way people form cases for it. Necking down Winchester .308 brass usually isn't a problem, as its still not too thick by the time final sizing is complete. Using Lapua .308 where neck-turning is often required, or necking up Lapua .243 where the base of the neck used part of the (much thicker) shoulder, is where you start seeing donuts forming. The problem can be addressed by using regular Remington .260 brass, or inside neck reaming to take out the donut.
The real rub is that even with long-throated variants like the 6.5-08... its hard to really use all the available case capacity. Most 'max' loads with powders in the Varget to H4350 burn rate will still have a lot of air space inside the case. H4831SC still doesn't use it all. I know one person who used H1000 and a long drop tube, but it still didn't go appreciably *faster* for the amount of work he put into it. Individual rifles with 'fast' barrels aside, 43-44gn H4350 isn't going to go as fast as 48-50gn from a 6.5-284 (which also has a poop-load of air-space with max loads). The air space is both the bane and the boon of the .260 Rem - yeah, it ain't really desirable to seat a bullet that deep, but it ain't like you're doing anything other than taking up unused case capacity - it certainly isn't going to be restricting your powder charge much if any.
All that aside, a .260 Rem is still a good all-around cartridge - it just ain't the fastest, the most accurate, etc. People have tried fairly hard to make it run in 600-1k BR - none have been successful that I know of. Where it excelled for a long time was the most horsepower in terms of high BC bullet at a given speed that you could pump out of a short action magazine, both for NRA XTC and for 'tactical' matches. NRA XTC shooters generally used the 6.5-08 variant with 120gn bullets for the mag-fed stages @ 200-300 and loaded 140s long for 600+. The tactical guys... just stuffed the biggest bullet they could find in there and seated to mag length. The Lapua 123 Scenar and Norma or Berger 130 VLDs also gained popularity by bridging that gap somewhat - higher BC than the other bullets traditionally used for mag length. Custom bottom metal (i.e. Wyatt for Remington 700s) that allow longer throated versions is usually *very* popular with custom builds. Given the length of Savage's short-action magazines, it is a shame that they couldn't have given the gun a longer throat - but they usually get SAAMI spec reamers, which for the .260 are shorter than optimal.
Now you know why they 'invented' the 6.5x47L and 6.5 Creedmoor - the benefits of .260 Rem as being capable of feeding from a short-action magazine, with all the excess (and unused) capacity taken out by shortening it and moving the shoulder back.
You got what you asked for when you ordered that cartridge - literally.
thank you memilanuk!
Yes indeed, I got what I paid for, 260 it is. I'll swap barrel if it won't shoot. Max OAL for 139 Scenar shows 2.840" and Nosler CC 2.760".
Question, if I to extend freebore in this chamber just a bit would that give any edge?
Ok, so the 260REM Lapua brass is shipping now, I got some last week.
No need to mess around with upsizing and down sizing.
The 260REM Nosler brass isn't too bad either.
Also, if you try Ram Shot Magnum you will get the H1000 burn rate and still fit in the case (maybe not with that short throat of Jinx-) ...
Just a thought.
dwm, yep we already talked about it ;)
I messed up when I purchased the reamer for my .260 Improved....the heavier bullets were seated deeper than what yours is. Purchased a "Throat Reamer" and lengthened the Leade of my chamber. My rig is designed to thrive on 139-142 gr. bullets. Perhaps your chamber could be fine tuned with a throat reamer and increasing the Leade?Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx-)
Wayne
Jinx-) maybe Sinman or someone would ream that throat of yours out a little longer.
He was offering to rechamber barrels very reasonably not too long ago.
Can you get the barrel off yourself?
If I'm going to get new barrel it will be Shilen or Krieger, if I to spend money on new barrel why not get the best. Sinman, I can't recall anything from him, who is he?
About new throat for this chamber, currently I'm researching gunsmiths in my area to do this job, so far I left bunch of messages, but no reply. I think if I can get throat extended to seat 140 gr nicer it will be fine.
I can't imagine having the throat lengthened would cost nearly as much as a new barrel. But as it has already been pointed out, it may not do any thing for you.
www.sin-arms.comQuote:
Sinman, I can't recall anything from him, who is he?
Devin is very maticulus and takes pride in his work. He should be able to to anything you need!
If I can't find anybody to do it close to home I will try Sinman, why not.
here is few more groups, but I blame wind for horizontal spreading, it was gusting 25 mph, vertical wasn't me 98%.
[img width=347 height=450]http://imageshack.us/m/41/8263/hundredyard3.jpg[/img]
Here is what I found on Hornady website:
"By loading longer bullets and seating them farther out so they'll touch the rifling - making powder charge adjustments as necessary, of course - accuracy can often be improved."
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal
So I think I might have a shot in increasing accuracy with extending freebore.
So you can only seat to mag length where would that 140VLD be seated in the case then ???
This chamber allows Max OAL for 139 Scenar shows 2.840" and Nosler CC 2.760". Magazine will let 3" so there are still room left, only if chamber would allow it.
In my Remington.....They are at least 1/8" or so too long to load in the magazine. For me...I don't care since I use it as a single shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by tipper999
Sorry I had mentioned lengthening the freebore when someone else mentioned it. But, I wanted to share that I had to do the very thing to seat the heavier bullets out to where they need to be.
I'll try and post a picture....The round on the left is a 140 gr. seated to magazine length and my original chamber specs. The round on the right is my new chamber spec. The OAL difference is 0.18".
[imghttp://i427.photobucket.com/albums/p...P5160348-1.jpg][/img]
Wayne
P.S.
This is obviously regular 260 brass and not the improved case.
That's exactly how I would like my loads to look like and I don't care about magazine, I would like to use follower in the single shot mode. Called local gunsmith today, he told me 150 buck to get freebore extended, I think this job should cost around 30 - 40 bucks, takes just few minutes to do it on the lathe. I heard it can be done by hand.
Ask Devin, he seems to be pretty reasonable. Yes, it can be done by hand.
Right now I'm waiting on bore scope to get this tube inspected, untill I know for sure that tube is good I'm not sending it anywhere,
its something fishy about it, just look at this crown, I thought target crowns supposed to have 60 degree edges along muzzle just like this:
[img width=600 height=353]http://img804.yfrog.com/img804/3200/crownh.jpg[/img]
but on my rifle it doesn't, when I insert q-tip it traps cotton along the edges:
[img width=561 height=450]http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7476/crown2.jpg[/img]
and the perpendicular tool marks resulting heavy copper buildup specially in the critical section before muzzle:
[img width=502 height=450]http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5784/crown1.jpg[/img]
here what target crown looks like on my TC ICON Precision Hunter, this thing is a shooter 0.25" 5 shots 100 yards.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9656/norwear2.jpg
Sounds like you just found your problem, or a problem anyway. :)
Muzzle crowns... have been, and continue to be... one of the factory's weak spots, IMO.
That said, the one on my 12 LRP 6.5 CM looks much as yours does, and doesn't seem to be holding it back much. Maybe its just a matter of yours being just a fuzz worse, just enough to matter? A recrown shouldn't cost too much. I'm getting a brake put on mine sometime this summer/fall/whenever the 'smith I use has an opening; I'll probably have him touch up the crown when he has it chucked up in the lathe already.
Contacted Savage, they want my rifle back for inspection. I think its good idea, I'm tired of addressing this, all I want is decent rifle which can shoot nice groups.