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i understand that some of this is about ease of movement and stuff like that, but what am i missing in this statement: if a bolt locks down and makes good contact w/ the lugs, it has done its job.
i am reading all the discussion on timed and trued and don't understand what all is important. if i lap in my lugs well so it locks down tight what else needs to happen?. if i don't mind the not perfectly smooth bolt lift and other little things like that, am i really missing out on anything?
And I thought I was the only one that did not understand ??? Other than a smooth operating bolt, not sure I know what the rest is about.
Thanks hershey
There is a thread on it somewhere if you do a search. I rec. it, I have 2 actions done w/ it and my 3rd is at SSS's shop now.
If you look in the FAQs section you will find the answer to your question.
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...ic,4899.0.html
test
ok, thanks for the link, i thought i'd been through all them thingies at one point in time or another, goes to show, i should look at them more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by hershey
but what i am searching for is the answer to the question above. for me, unless someone can convince me there is an accuracy/performance gain, i can live w/ what i got.
Lets say you have even contact on your locking lugs because youve taken the time to lap them in. Whats to say that the face of the bolt head is strait with the bore?
The proper way to lap in the locking lugs is to first true the bolt face and the rear of the locking lugs so they are square or concentric first. After that the action needs to be straitened (all actions are crooked). If the actions crooked/twisted/bent but the locking lugs are strait you still are pushing more against one recoil lug than the other knocking the face of the bolt off.
Thats where the Savages floating bolt head comes in!
Hershey
Not sure it is anyones job to convince you about timing or blueprinting an action. It just depends on what you are after for accuracy.
I look at it like an insurance policy. You get what you pay for. You pay a little or a lot more money for the just in case factor.
I have trued Remington's and seen a drastic change in the way my bolts locked up. Yes it made a difference in the way they shot as well. Accuracy comes from precision work from the back of the bolt to the crown of the barrel. Ultimate accuracy comes from exact tolerances in mating surfaces together with alignment of all of those parts. In other words the X-factor/ unknown factor has been removed.
Will I do it or have it done again? NO, because the actions are all done or so close to perfect mating surface the X-factor is gone.
Personally, the extremely heavy hitting cartridges I am shooting demand full locking bolt engagement to insure my safety.
Some things to ponder
Neal
No; its not!Quote:
Originally Posted by savageboy
When the bolt heads crooked, the bolt face is crooked, the brass comes out of the chamber crooked. See what that does to your accuracy the next time you reload it.
+ 1 its like a long highway that zig zags. its not all in line. 8) ddQuote:
Originally Posted by outlawkyote
So what does the floating bolt face do for us?
Gives us "out of the box accuracy" without custom gunsmithing.Quote:
Originally Posted by savageboy
Custom gunsmithing gives us better accuracy.
follows and stays square with the base of the cartridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by savageboy
lol.. not hardlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Blue Avenger
Re: explain timed and trued to me
« Reply #14 on: Today at 10:07:11 PM » Quote
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Quote from: Blue Avenger on Today at 10:04:06 PM
Quote from: savageboy on Today at 09:53:15 PM
So what does the floating bolt face do for us?
follows and stays square with the base of the cartridge.
lol.. not hardly
OK so tell us then- I must not be the only one who is mis informed
The only thing the floating bolt head does is tips, twists slightly under pressure so that both locking lugs take equal pressure. If these parts are not squared to each other your brass will stretch more on the side that is not equal. Next time you load your brass into that chamber (unless youve indexed your brass so it goes back into the chamber the same way) it will once again stretch to the uneven side. After only a few firings, you need to start bumping your brass back because it is getting too long an uneven.
I have experienced this when comparing trued actions compared to non-trued actions, One piece of brass fits tighter than the last piece? This has caused inconsistand accuracy in those rifles also.
You cant tell me that 50-60 thousand pounds of pressure arent going to push that brass back into the face of the bolt face (thats crooked because the bolt head tipped into the longer side) and not stretch into the side that is crooked.
Lapping your bolt only releives tooling marks and uneven spots (per side) and not makes them equal to each other.
I know I am sold on T&T for Savage actions.
so if i am doing load work and using the same 20 pieces of brass and have half a dozen firings on them and i am not trimming or having to do anything but neck size, then i probably got everything lined up pretty straight and i would not gain allot in accuracy, just in ease of use and the tolerances would be finer. if i am having brass issues, it could very well be the action needs trued?
Prolly. Hey, Im not the kinda guy to tell anyone they need to do anything. Until youve had Fred true one of your actions, you prolly just wouldnt understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by hershey
That single shot action you sold me has had Freds work done to it already, You should feel the difference that made. I am still building on it though and havent shot it yet. Setting a Ken Ferrel base on the top , everything lined up perfect and I prolly wont need to bed the base to match it to the action.
Try one once and you'll understand. Freds rates are very reasonable and there is no excuse not to have one done.
[/quote]
Try one once and you'll understand. Freds rates are very reasonable and there is no excuse not to have one done.
[/quote]
actually, in my opinion, if i an gonna start w/ a target action and then send it out, it is getting close enough to custom action prices that it makes me think that might be the smarter choice. do not get me wrong i am not claiming that it is not a good thing to do, i want to know what i am giving up in accuracy when sitting next to a guy that has had it all done, or has a custom action. from what i can gather from this post is if my brass is coming out of the gun in good shape, i am not giving up much at all, probably in truth, nothing other that his gun is a little bit user freindly because it is easier to cycle the bolt etc.
i am the type of guy that if i sent my first one out and liked it, i'd have to send them all out, but then i could of just bought a custom gun and still have a bunch of very fine shootin savage rifles.
New member, first post. This thread is very interesting--I own 4 savages and am contemplating a couple or 3 more and this barrel swapping is looking better all the time. These questions come to my feeble old mind--since I'm considering a target action to build on--is the target action any more T & T than any other savage action? Or, would a person be any better off ($$$) just buying a Stevens and get a T & T job to start with? You would lose the SS, solid bottem and fancy trigger and port systems--how about the lug? Is it suppose to be any better than 'stock'? For my purposes, I'm not planning any super huge cartridges, mostly just varmint class stuff.
Thanks, Steve
actions and bolts are all the same for material quality. only changes would be ports and you can add one if you want. the solid bottom can be filled with a single shot follower if you want to buy a cheaper action. triggers are different between the std. and target actions. many change the trigger also. Lug is a separate replacement part. always a good idea to change the warped stamped stock part if you have the option.Quote:
Originally Posted by durango
Which custom action is that getting close to? I want one!Quote:
Originally Posted by hershey
About the floating bolt head. Can it really move that much? I mean, it seems like there's very little clearance for the firing pin to go through the bolt pin and bolt head. Seems like it couldn't move much without binding the firing pin.
Do you load your own ammo?Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
When loading your ammo do you remove the burs in the flashole? Surely it doesnt make much difference? Do you uniform the primer pockets? Do you weigh each load? Do you check your runnout? Do you turn the necks? Do you make you bullets set exactly equal to each other? Do you weigh your brass? Do you measure each bullet for bearing surface? Do you weigh each bullet?
If you dont, T&Ting an action may not do anything for you.
How much can it be off? Have you seen all the posts on here about people needing Z rings just to get their scope adjusted close enough to hit paper? Ive had one that needed 20moa bases to get the bullet on paper at 100yds. It shot like crap but ever since Fred T&Td the action, its one of my best shooters now.
Having the floating head crooked can cause the firing pin to strike inconsistantly too; obviously causing poor accuracy.
It also eliminates the effect of sear pressure unloading the top locking lug on a tensioned (cocked) bolt or whats known as "bolt slap".Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawkyote
Bill
No I do not hand load so I don't do the things you mentioned. I was just asking how much the bolt head can actually shift is all. And yes I have had to use the Signature Zee rings to get the scope lined up properly. I was merely thinking that if the action is off that much the floating bolt head wouldn't move enough to completely line up with the locking lug recesses so you would have to have the action squared anyway along with the bolt head/face. I'm no expert though so I was asking just so I could learn.
I find that a T&T'd action is much easier to work the bolt on without disturbing the gun on the rest.
I did notice an accuracy improvement (1" to 3/4" at 200 yards) on one of the two rifles that I sent to Fred at SSS.
I am a fan of SSS action work, especially for a varmint rifle.
In my opinion, on a hunting rifle you will probably not get as much benefit.
Keith
Bolt deflection can be as much as 1.5 degrees and still get complete contact on both lugs. This amounts to about .050" at the rear of the bolt body from the bolt head in any and all directions. However if a receiver was this far off, it would probably suffer from lug shift upon firing. As the bolt is turned down there is a tension caused by the cocking piece pin compressing the spring. If the closing ramps are not square to the remaider of the bore,one lug makes contact before the other, and in effect the first contact point acts as a fulcrum from the tension and the whole bolt head is shifted sliftly askew. It will stay that way until the tension on the firing pin spring is released by firing. At this point once the tension is released the bolt head tends to snap back in the opposite direction, not just back to theoretical center, but past it. This can cause flyers in small to larger degrees.