Printable View
I use a Lee collet die for my 308 F class, but purchased a Forster shoulder bump die to set the shoulder back. I haven't loaded anything since I got the bump die as it came late last fall. Does anybody resize everytime with the bump die, and what kind of results do you get, and how does it affect case life?
If you push the shoulder back just enough to get a smooth bolt close, maybe .001 or .002 max, and by not working the brass more than needed, they should last a long time. I've got 15 to 20 reloads on 6 and 22 BR brass and they're still going strong. Throw in a body size once in a while if the case gets tight in the chamber. Bushing size the neck, bump the shoulder and you're good to go.
I haven't had very good luck with bushings, and my Forster die does not have one, but I will order one and give it a try. The Redding bushing dies I have, have runout problems, I hope Forster is better. Thanks, Luke
I've got a forster bump die for every cal. rifle i have and they work very good.
I guess me and bushings just don't get along. I received the bushing (.335) yesterday, put it in the bump die, ran a case into it that had -.001 runout, afterwards had .004 runout. Three more cases had the same result. It's back to the Lee collet die and no runout issues.
Hard to beat the Lee. I found out the same way you did.
I don't have much experience with the Forster, but I have ran a few thousand rounds thru Redding Type 'S' F/L bushing dies (similar concept).
Running .308 brass fired in a factory SAAMI spec chamber that came out at .346" and sizing it down to .328" (winchester brass measuring 11 thou neck thickness for 2 thou neck tension) in one whack made for some *ugly* run-out. Redding's answer was that bushings weren't really intended to size down *that* far in one step - they suggested at least three. Me, I looked at the pile of brass I had and tried to envision sizing each one at least three times each loading, and just laughed ::)
Making sure you back off the stem a little so that the bushing can 'float' inside the neck area and self-align does tend to help a lot. Basically turn it down to where it stops, then back off 1/4-1/2 turn and lock it. Take the die and shake it hard - you should be able to hear the bushing rattle slightly.
The Lee Collet die does work beautifully for situations like the one described above... other than its often difficult to get *enough* neck tension, and it always seems to be a matter of when, not if, its going to eat a case and shove the neck down inside the shoulder.
I will never waste another dime on bushing dies. I was going from .345-.335, not that far imo. I have read what you posted before about reducing in small increments, but the Lee Collet does not have that problem. I will neck size in the collet and shoulder bump with the Forster for my 308 FTR. Thanks for the info , and have a Happy New Year. Luke
Never say never... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckus
Like I said, a lot of it is in the setup.
Good luck,
Monte
I use Lapua brass. I neck size and bump, don't remember the last time I full sized by brass. I always try my brass after bumping a few, smooth as can be! COAL stays about the same also!Quote:
If you push the shoulder back just enough to get a smooth bolt close, maybe .001 or .002 max, and by not working the brass more than needed, they should last a long time. I've got 15 to 20 reloads on 6 and 22 BR brass and they're still going strong. Throw in a body size once in a while if the case gets tight in the chamber. Bushing size the neck, bump the shoulder and you're good to go.
Like Nor Cal Mike I use Forester bushing neck dies to push the shoulder back. My 22-250 will pound tight after neck sizing only 3 times. I uses the Forster dies to move the shoulder back a small amount, allowing the bolt of my model 12 LRPV to close easily. In this regard the dies are great because you only size the neck and nothing else, plus you can control how much tension you put on the bullet. The only aspect I don't like is if you only size part of the neck to maintain a doughnut at the base of the neck, kiss it goodbye.
EMgun08, can you explain your comment, "The only aspect I don't like is if you only size part of the neck to maintain a doughnut at the base of the neck, kiss it goodbye. " What do you mean by "maintain a doughnut"? Why would I want to do this? and what are we, "kissing goodbye"? I should perhaps explain my situation: I have a Savage 12 FTR .308 on order and would like to try neck bushings. I haven't used them before. What size bushings should I get? I have commercial brass (no Lapua) and military brass. Thank you.
dead lizard the forster you can get in a kit with 3 bushings, if you just want one or a different bushing die just measure a loaded round in the brass you use then get a bushing.002 smaller
Dead Lizzard; Frank's suggestion is dead on. Check out The Forester Products pdf here: http://www.forsterproducts.com/clien...structions.pdf . They have a pic and a few instructions on the subject. Basically, I only size the first 2/3 of the neck which keeps the last 1/3 of the neck a larger diameter. This larger diameter helps to (among other things) align the bullet to the bore.
Cheers
EM
EMgun08, what do you do when that brass builds up and creates what they call a doughnut I do the whole neck.
I haven't used a bump die but I do have problems with my hornady .308 bushing neck die. I ordered a .336 bushing and it doesn't size the neck enough to hold a bullet... I'm kind of at a loss, it must be the thickness of the brass that is the problem because I'm sure they sell them for a reason. I guess I'll drop to a .334 bushing and see if that fixes the problem.
yep that will probably do it
id really love to have a bump die for my 25-06 but those darn things are expensive and im kinda cheap.lol guess when i get a pile of brass that i really dont want to full length ill break down and buy one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keeki
Make your own bump die.
Take any neck sizer (not Lee) and stone down the top of your shellholder or bottom of the die.
Remove the expander and keep checking.
Eventually you'll hit the shoulders in the die and begin bumping back your brass.
I've done several until I just switched to FL everytime.
you said that you full length everytime? does that not wear your brass out prematurely?
The object of the bump die is to "not" work the brass more than needed.
Neck size and bump the shoulder just enough so the brass fits back in the chamber and the bolt closes easy. Then after maybe 4 or 5 firings, run the brass through a body die or full length die. Depends on how hot you make your reloads.
Its my opinion and expierience that FL sizing with a bushing die will not wear your brass any faster than neck sizing.YMMV
One caveat. The FL sizer MUST be set up correctly. Most manufacturers setup instructions are seriously flawed in this area. Too many novice shooters actually follow those instructions.
At the present time I have three competition rifles. All three get FL every firing. The 6ppc and 6BR are run at pressures high enough to demand it. I could necksize for one firing after FL in those two. Just not worth it.
25-30 resizings in the last two years all with the same brass. I fully intend to use the same brass next year also. Scores are up, guns shoot consistently better and I'm not wearing the lugs forcing my chamber to do what the die is supposed too.
FWIW I've seen claims/opinions from much smarter BR shooters than I that state necksizing is actually detrimental to brass longevity. The theory goes that by the time a necksizing reloader gets around to bumping his shoulders back a larger bump is usually required. In the order of .003-.004" as opposed to .001"-.002" a properly set up FL die would do.
The theory goes on to say this one time occasional big bump causes more weakness in the brass than a smaller more frequent bump.
I'm not smart enough to argue that point one way or the other.
Just throwin it out there to be chewed upon ;) ;D
What works for me may not work the same way for someone else. Good thing we don't all think the same. ;)
I run my reloads on the lower side so that may make a difference. Hotter loads will always need more attention that a milder load. I like the idea of a little "wiggle room" when it comes to reloads, just in case you get a weather change and the temp jumps an extra 30*. Nohing like pounding the bolt open, blowing primers and chasing extractor balls when it gets warmer to make your day. :-[ A always, YMMV. ;D
What in the world does FWIW and YMMV mean?
jo191145 is right the forster bump bushing neck die bumps the shoulder .004 as a FLS is about .001 or .002 that is why I also use the redding bushing neck die , no bump.
for what it's worthQuote:
Originally Posted by frank1947
your mileage may vary
Frank
Not quite what I said... or at least meant to say ;D
A die, shoulder or FL, will only bump the shoulders as much as you let it ;) Proper set up is key.
Forget the generic instructions that come with it. They both/all need to be set to your chamber.
No two chambers,dies,shellholders are alike.
What I meant to say is "some" necksizing fans let thier brass get overally long in the headspace department before resorting to the dreaded FL die. This now requires a larger bump to get back to chamber dimensions.
My personal parameters are simple. If I can feel my brass while chambering its to big. If my comparator says I'm bumping more than .002" on "slight resistance" brass I'm sizing too much (or) theres a bad mismatch between chamber and die.
I should concur with mikie.
A shoulder bump die should be just the ticket for most sane loads and brass thats never been horribly abused with pressure testing. ;D
Given those two parameters FL sizing should'nt be required for a very very long time. If ever.
And, when you use a full length sizer die, you're working the body. That's what you avoid with a bushing bump die. All you're doing is sizing the neck and pushing the shoulder back a bit. Doesn't do anything with the body. .001 to .0015 should be enough for a bump.
By "not" using a full length sizer die, and just a bushing and shoulder bump, you let the body expand to the size of the chamber.
Every time that brass gets fired after it was full length resized, it expands back to the chamber size. That's where you're working the brass more than needed.
With a shoulder bump only, somewhere down the road you'll have to squeeze the body back down but not till it's needed. Keeps everything snug in the chamber. And you "can" bump the shoulder with a full length die but you're also working the body.
Well I use all of them depending what I want to do, I have Forster Neck bump bushing , and redding S type bushing and redding FLS, example today after reloading winchester brass in 308 about 6 times I decided to check headspace with hornady headspace gauge, I couldnt remember what headspace was I went to saami.org and found it was min of 1.630 and max 1.640 my brass was .002 to .004 short so got the FLS out and sized to 1.633, this brass was done 6 times with the Forster bump neck bushing die good milage om that brass. YMMV, I had to do that
Theoretically, you could properly set a full length sizing die with a go gauge then?
I don't see why not but, the Go gauge is set at SAMMI specs and not all gauges are the same. At least that's what some of the guys have mentioned.
The advantage of the Savage barrel nut it you can set the head space on the "tighter side" so your brass doesn't grow as much with a looser chamber?
All mine are set on the snug side so my brass can't grow any more than I want them to. That's the advantage of being snug. Makes your brass last a lot longer. Bump "just enough" to close the bolt. And, if your die is set in the press to cam mover when it rests on the shell holder, you always go back to "that" setting and work from there. You never have to think about it. It's your starting point all the time. I don't bother to set to gauges anymore. I've got them but don't use them.
Full length resized case, set headspace to that and adjust from there. IMHO, snug it better. ;) 15 to 20+ times fired, shoulder bumped and bushing neck sized. All cases still going strong. What ever works best for you is what you need to do. ;D
Good Lord thats a scary thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaCop
Inserting a solid steel guage into a die designed to constrict brass down to minimum specs does'nt sound wise ;D
While its possible the guage is of lesser body diameter specs than the FL die you won't know that until you try. The result would be either a jammed guage or faulty readings.
I'm in mikes camp. I adjust my Savs headspace to crush fit on virgin brass (if possible). I really have no use for Sammi specs.
Of course this means I usually need to adjust my shellholders to allow a shoulder bump/FL die to work.
I have one go guage....somewhere :D
Only way I know to set up a FL or shoulder bump correctly is by comparing headspace of fired brass to headspace of sized brass.
Optimally start with several pieces of fired brass thats beginning to show slight resistance to chambering. Slight resistance usually requires .002'' setback.
.001" to remove the resistance. .001" as a safety net for future variations in brass springback.
I do this by screwing in the FL die in very small increments once I'm in the ballpark.
Testing every adjustment in the rifle for "feel" and taking measurments.
Using small adjustments you'll feel that FL die begin to contact the shoulders.
With a FL die and a normal sloppy factory chamber using small adjustments you can notice the headspace measurements begin to grow as you adjust the die further down. This is because the FL die is constricting the body of the brass and pushing the shoulder forward.
This fact alone bodes well for the use of a bump only die in factory chambers ;)
And I might add, most of these remarks about adjusting headspace "tighter" than SAMMI specs are from trial and error. SAMMI specs are for factory chambers. Don't expect to be able to shoot factory loaded ammo. You may, but don't count on it.
What most of us are doing is trying to shorten the learning curve for other folks.
It's all a game that we're playing. Been there, tried that and it didn't work so we'll try something else till we find what we're looking for and what works best for "us". ;) And as usual, YMMV. We're all in this to learn something. If you don't know, don't be afraid to ask. :)
Well said mike
Its not something done lightly without prior thought and a full understanding of all the parameters that must be followed.
I'll throw out a few thoughts/warnings ;D
Never adjust a chamber greater than Sammi specs. Thats a given ;)
If you want to use virgin brass for a go quage its much better to use quality brass. Lapua for instance has the specs set fairly tight to Sammi minimum.
I've seen some Remchester virgin headspace measurements .011" shorter than an already under Sammi spec chamber on one of my guns.
It was simply impossible to set headspace with that brass. Bottomed out the barrel stub on the bolthead long before.
Maintain at least .005" clearence between bolthead and barrel. You want that floating bolt head to do its job.
Obviously not everyones cup of tea. Some consider any deviation from Sammi specs blasphemy. Others are happy just following the established rules. Thats all fine.
What Mike and I are doing is minimizing or totally negating that first initial forming stretch of brass to fill the chamber.
Would I do it to a Stevens that fires a few shots at deer every year? I might but would'nt recommend it to most
Good info and food for thought. To date I've always used the PT&G GO gauge and set the HS tight on the gauge to where one thickness of scotch tape (.002") wouldn't allow the bolt to close.
I should of said alot more than, that i have a forster bump die for every gun i have and they work for me. But i couldn't of said it any better than Mikie or jo191145 did. I've been doing it the same way as Mikie for some time now and it's been working out really good for me also.
More to add. If you ever plan on selling one of you rifles set up on the "snug side", the guy that buys it had better know what he's getting into.
Like I mentioned before, don't expect it to chamber "factory loaded ammo". Just ain't gunna happen. ;)
And all this info doesn't come over night. Got to "been there done that" to understand what's going on and how far you can go without running into problems. Just another part of the "learning curve". No short cuts involved.
And when you get to the point that you think you know "everything", it's time to take up basket weaving. ;D
I've pounded open a few bolts and popped a few primers and I don't want to go back there. ;)
Very good info you guys. So here is my question.
Which is more accurate?
1/ Bump with no body size or FL bump with sizing the body?
My guess is shoulder bump and bushing neck size. By not full length sizing the body, it can expand to the inside of the chamber.
By full length sizing, the case has to expand back to the chamber size after it has been squeezed down by full length resizing. To me, that's working the brass more than needed.
On a "custom" chamber, it might be a different story. Again, whatever you feel comfortable with and what works best for you is what you need to go with.
We all have different opinions and ideas.
Some of the BR Comp shooters will full length resize every time but I'am betting they're working with custom sized chambers while others will bump and squeeze.
Depends on who you ask. We all get stuck in out own little groove and are sometimes hard to change till someone else shows us the "error of our ways". ;D
If the fired brass will go back in the chamber with out forcing the bolt closed, size the neck and reload the case. When it starts getting snug on bolt closing, bump the shoulder.(no more than needed ;)) If it's still snug, size the body with a body "only" die or full length if that's all you have. Again, what works for me may not work for you. Remember, it's all a game so play till you come out winners. ;D
Mytwo60
What Mike said +1
As in most things accuracy related theres to many variables to give a definitive answer.
I shoulder bumped since 2004 with very good results with a home made Redding "neckbumper" as I refer to it in a Sav VLP 204 Ruger.
I thought it worked so well I made others for 308W and 6BR cartridges I was using at the time.
Personally I have seen an improvement in accuracy and consistency since just going FL. That means absolutely nothing to anyone else and they're guns ;) What works for me........
Actually I've found it to be what works for everyone else never ever works for me ;D
The Redding S series is all I use. Any standard(non bushing) die works the neck too much for my liking. I try to keep my annealing to a minimum if possible. I also personally abhor expander balls and lube in my necks. Quite sure I've been beat at the bench by someone who does'nt tho ;D
I'm sure a custom FL would be better but that stuff just ain't in the budget right now.
I don't think working the body of the brass is that damaging. At least not for me. Headspace is where the real problems arise.
Once that firing pin falls it pushes the case forward to the shoulders. Powder ignites, pressure forces the brass to expand and grip the chamber.
If headspace is excessive the only part of the case that can stretch is near the web. A very small area of brass takes all the stretching in comparison to diametrical (if thats a word)stretch. Thinning and case head seperation are the result.
I could list pros and cons to each method. Theories and assumptions mostly.
Mike said it better, whatever you feel comfortable with and works better for you.
Funny thing about headspace is it can lead you in the wrong direction. Case in point: Case too short, gets pushed forward in the chamber to the shoulder area, primer won't ignite so you blame it on the primer. Throw out a batch of "good" primers that you think are junk and try another brand that's "better"? (just had one happen yesterday) All the other 40 rounds fired OK. ;) Or, you find that the primer wasn't seated all the way down like the rest of the batch. :-[
You still condemned that brand of primers. Same with powder. Work it till you can't get anymore out of it. So and so says this is a better powder so I'll go with that. You never found out the true potential of the first brand. Too busy jumping around. ::)
Same with resizing your brass. If it feels good to you, do it.
If someone else does it a different way and you like the results, go for it and see how it works for you. Never stop learning. If you stop learning, you're not doing anything. ;D