I have a 110 that is very hard to lift the bolt handle after firing. This is not an ammo issue. Is the solution a bigger, longer, bolt handle? I have heard that there is a modification for the bolt to cure this.
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I have a 110 that is very hard to lift the bolt handle after firing. This is not an ammo issue. Is the solution a bigger, longer, bolt handle? I have heard that there is a modification for the bolt to cure this.
There is a host of things which can be done. Yes, an Aftermarket bolt handle will help tremendously. Also a Bolt lift kit will help. And polishing various parts can as well. The inside edges of the bolt where the Cocking Piece pin is riding against. Lastly, what firing pin is yours using? If it has the adjustable firing pin, the Spring can be modified to lower the tension & preload. As it is greatly over-sprung from the factory.
My 110 never has been that bad, but even a larger bolt knob can help. Anything to increase leverage.
Describe how hard the bolt lift is? Does it feel the same as the bolt lift with no round in it at all and the trigger tripped?
It should feel the same. If not then maybe a headspace issue? How did you determine it wasn’t an ammo issue?
Ditto!Quote:
Originally Posted by pdog06
Triple that.Quote:
Originally Posted by pdog06
I have a Sav 11 that I can lift the bolt with one finger but for the life of me I can't remember what or how I did it. I know it had something to due with the cocking ramp to the pin's retention, the 38-357 case /w ball bearing.... Recently installed the thrust bearing stuff in it....no difference.
It's an old age thing!!!
I keep my hand close to the receiver and lift the bolt with the side of my index finger near the knuckle, I find a longer or heavier bolt handle only adds weight to the extraction. IIRC my smith added a lift kit but also shortened the bolt body by the thickness of the kit washer dealie bobber.
It’s been awhile I may not be remembering correctly.
It’s not the Bolt Body(sleeve) that needs shortened; if anything, the bolt sleeve would need to be longer. When adding a Lift Kit, it needs either the spacer between the Bolt Handle & BAS, or the BAS needs shortened the width of the Lift Kit installed.Quote:
Originally Posted by South Prairie jim
I put one in a bolt for the wife's Bolt Gun In Build.
Bolt is dual spring with indicator.
Removed the one ring spacer (0.055"), added 3 piece thrust bearing (0.175"), and a BAS spacer (0.115") for an slight increase in spring tension of 0.005".
Attachment 10200
The target handle weighs 5.3 oz, the stock handle about 2.6 oz, or an extra 2.7 oz you have to lift.
Maybe a 1/2" X 1.5" hole removing about 1.3 oz would help.
Have 2 actions I can work the bolt with one finger, one is a PTA T&T'd by Fred (has the 357 case head mod) and the other, a model 10 purchased from a member here is the smoothest Savage I've ever touched.
Not a huge fan of the thrust bearing style. The single point of contact is still the best. I have a Lumley Ti BAS which is the lift kit. But it uses the adjustable screw conical point and an SS Lift plate with a pin hole in the middle.
https://i.ibb.co/cFFGYDz/BD11-AAB4-A...C2-EB57-EC.jpg
I ultimately machined the point of the adjusting screw Flat & polished, and replaced the SS Lift plate with the style I make using a Titanium Lift plate & Si3N4 (Silicone Nitride) or Tungsten bearing ball. The single Ball Bearing style that Fred (sharpshooter) first came up seems to work best.
https://i.ibb.co/6m0BH2X/03679-BE1-F...05-ACB77-A.jpg
For the old adjustable style FP's
If you add a lift kit without shortening the BAS or adding a spacer between the BAS and the bolt handle, You are compressing the spring even more. So that needs to be addressed.
Adding a set screw to hold the cocking piece pin can help address the cocking piece pin tilt/alignment. 1/4 - 28 is correct I think.
Polishing the firing pin spring ends(inside and outside) and even sanding down .005 on the OD of the spring will help. Use a drill and sandpapper not a grinder, unless you are a stud with a good setup to keep the diameter even. If you polish or sand always use something fine to finish. A 16 rms finish would be the minimum for me.
Use a small amount of good bolt lube/grease on the backs of the lugs.
Using a createx bit, polish the cocking ramp and edges. If the bolt close feels "notchy", then send it to Fred. He will T&T it if he still performs that work. Do not radius the edges of your bolt head ever, you have a timing issue not a sharp edge issue.
If your bolt gabs on close during the throw try applying force to the opposite of the bolt handle. Also using a flat hone you can remove some roughness from the bolt head raceway.
I'm am not real good with words so I hope some of these tips help.
Here is mine from a few years back. This was using the MDT TAC21 Chassis. This quick video shows how light these can be taken. Just as Phil & others here & there have indicated, this is one finger lift operation. And it’s not just me saying it. The rifle is resting in a cheap Caldwell rest with no weight, and nothing else bracing the rifle. It’s easy to see how light it is as the rest is moving all over the place. (I don’t have my left arm/hand to steady it, as they are paralyzed.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sDyuqH6kNQ
Since this video, the rifle has been completely rebuilt. New Chassis, Barrel etc. The Lift is slightly more now; intentionally, as I set the firing pin striker for maximum fall. I used to set the adjustment so the cocking piece pin would come to rest .080” away from the edge of the Bolt Sleeve. This aids in Lift but sacrifices firing pin travel, or fall, which is another term used. Although I’ve never had light primer strikes, I know that firing pin travel is among the most noted causes of light strikes. I want to make certain there is no possibility of it happening, so the little bit extra bolt lift is a worthy trade off. It’s now a two finger lift instead of one! LOL! :biggrin-new::biggrin-new:
I love how the whole rifle and stand rock and tilt on your one finger lift! Kind of humorous. Is that intentional or....? I mean, one of the main objectives for reducing bolt lift is to decrease the rifle upset, and of coarse, effort is synonymous.
I can relate to the comments. :tea::bolt:
It ain't bad though! It needs some help on the hand off.
The movement was because I was so used to the rigorous upward pressure so typically needed in operating a Savage 110, that I wasn’t prepared for how light it had become.
Still the lightest one I’ve ever come across.. unless someone else has proof to contrary. (Aside from the spoken norm.) Though, as I said, it’s not quite that light anymore as I adjusted the striker to regain maximum firing pin travel.
Just razzing you Dave. However increasing the firing pin travel/movement would not increase the lift. It would just make a small increase in how much of the 90* rotation on cocking, that you would realize spring pressure. I do believe that maximizing pin travel distance is a reliable way to improve the opportunity of consistent ignition.
Yes I’m sure you’re right and I’m just not remembering correctly. As I say it’s been a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Great additions! I didn’t go into such detail, although I do everything on your list. The 1/4-28 set screw in the back of the cocking piece to prevent the cocking piece pin from tilting, is a wonderful mod. And although I simply simply spoke of modifying the striker spring, removing some material from the coils diameter is a great way of lowering the tension. I do also clip coils, but I reform the cut end back to factory appearance, compressing the open end against the next coil.
Also, while no, the position of the cocking piece pin near or away from the edge of the bolt sleeve does not affect bolt lift on paper, it changes the feel quite a bit, which does seem to increase/decrease the Lift tension. At least to myself and many others. Another bit like this is polishing the down the little nub, (referenced in picture below), which retains the cocking piece pin at cocked position. Again, as far as function is concerned, makes no difference. Yet doing this, once again, absolutely changed the feel and at least the interpretation of less bolt lift.
Bolt sleeve, sanding down/polishing the “nub” and my actual bolt sleeve since doing this.
https://i.ibb.co/ncDQ6LF/6-B648-EC5-...75-CF79-F6.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/GWCxYfv/EE86-DE5-D-...BDF09-ECA5.png
I also clip the springs to the length shown below, also with the finished cut end as I do.
https://i.ibb.co/VgmdLCk/E2497-EF4-0...-BD4-ACBA8.jpg
So...Does anyone make a lift kit that I can install? I have heard of the .357 casing thing before. Where is it installed? does the ball bearing go into the primer pocket?Thanks fo all of the input!
And if you have the newer style BAS with cocking indicator:
https://deshind.com/product/savage-b...ring-pin-2019/
and actually Desh has lift kits for both styles.
I got the Lumley kit but only for Titanium BAS. As I said, the single bearing ball style is the best performing option. So I modified mine.
Centershot, are ya out there?
I bought a used Savage 7mm mag years ago, and had the same problem.
Super hard bolt lift.
Apparently somebody had taken apart the firing pin assembly and it was assembled improperly and or had the wrong spring or some other wrong part for the bolt body.
I worked on it a good bit and eventually got it to where the bolt would cycle better, but it was never 100% like my other Savages.
That just reminded me of something else. You didn’t mention what era your Savage is, newer or older, but in some older 110’s the rear Baffle used a set screw holding in the bearing ball. As shown in the picture below. (Curtesy of Desh) If that screw it too tight, it can hinder the Baffle spinning on the Bolt sleeve, which further increases Bolt Lift quite a bit. If it is too tight, loosening just slightly should help.
https://i.ibb.co/ZR9Wp33/D91-CC464-B...9633-ACCA7.png
I am. Just trying to digest all of the suggestions. Thanks for the tips. I have to take my bolt apart and see what I have.
My rifle was made in 2004.
My new Model 12 bolt does not have a cocking indicator that protrudes through the BAS. Does that mean it has the older style firing pin assembly? This rifle has a DOM (date of manufacture?) of 10/16/23.
It you do the .38 Special and ball bearing thing, do you need to shorten something? Like the shroud or firing pin spring?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Jim
Correct. All the higher end rifles use the adjustable style firing pin assembly. Yours is the older style pin assembly, yes
Thanks Dave. I appreciate you for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Do you have to? No but you’re basically not gonna gain much if at all. You change the bearing surface but add more tension.Quote:
Originally Posted by centershot
Most will say to shorten the BAS(bolt assembly screw) by the total thickness of the bolt lift kit. I think Desh will shorten it if you send him the BAS and a measurement.
It’s just like pdog said. Either a spacer or shorten the BAS. I’ve done both. I shortened my stock BAS, but now I use the Lumley Titanium BAS and I machined my own Titanium spacer.Quote:
Originally Posted by centershot
If you want you can send me your BAS to machine shorter. I do it for free.
Went to the hardware store and bought ball bearings. One "floats" in the primer packet, but still sticks out of the pocket, and the other one does not bottom out. Which one should I use?
What sizes are they? With a standard 38spl/357Mag case, it’s supposed to be a 5/32” steel ball used. When I first made one of these, I had some 5mm bearing balls, so I killed the primer pocket with a 5mm end mill. Then the ball needed to be pressed in the pocket. (Just used my vice & some Aluminum plates). I didn’t need to use any epoxy.