Can we Talk About Annealing?

Not why or when, but how. I anneal the neck and shoulder of my brass with a torch every time its reloaded. I keep it simple and use a 10 mm deep well socket on a drill for 6.5 Creedmoor. I drop the case in the socket and spin it for 8 seconds in the flame of a propane torch. The socket makes holding the case easy and provides some protection for the body of the case. I think I average 40-60 rounds a week and have 200 cases in a rotation so I end up annealing 120-160 cases every three weeks. It doesn't take a lot of time, but automating the process has its allure. Does anyone have one of the automatic propane case annealers?

Attachment 9194variable speed, 2 torch
sorry, don't see a pic rotation button

If you are annealing every time you reload, make sure you check neck thickness. Softer necks tend to gain in thickness and not in length.

What Sharpshooter said.....I've annealed for years. Currently I've been using an
"Anealeeze" and use it alot for my wild catting hobby. My process for annealing
starts with fire forming, then the first two actual loadings. I do not do anymore
annealing on those cases. By the time I'm ready to load the forth time, the cases
have a good carbon layer in the neck which I do not want to disturb.

Ernest, I do mine the same as you. Propane torch & spun in a deep socket. I also make sure to do it in very low light so I can see the color of the brass. At some point I’m going to build an Induction Coil annealer, but haven’t gotten around to it yet.

I use an EP annealing machine, similar to others with an adjustable wheel/drum to control the length of time in the single flame. I don't anneal very often as I don't shoot that much in terms of volume, so I do it in "batches" when I clean/process the brass I have used. I shoot mainly 20 and 22 cal, with a small amount of 6BR. I have my "everyday" cases for those calibers and then other brass for those varmint rounds that are kept seperate.

I've read a lot of differing opinions about when and how often to anneal. I know that some really well known and respected shooters on YouTube advocate annealing every time you reload and others anneal infrequently or not at all. I saw a video by the 6.5 guys where they took one Lapua 6.5 case and shot and reloaded it 20 times in a row and the case was still fine, they just stopped at 20. They did nothing to prep it but wipe it off and clean out the primer pocket. By the time they got to the 20th reload the neck was black.

I only reload two bottleneck cartridges, .223 Remington and Lapua 6.5 CM brass. I find enough .223 cases at my club that I reload them a few times and toss them since its really just a plinking round for me. I'm on the 7th reload of the 6.5 CM brass and its been annealed 3 or 4 times as I've gone back and forth on annealing every time its reloaded.

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

What Sharpshooter said.....I've annealed for years. Currently I've been using an
"Anealeeze" and use it alot for my wild catting hobby. My process for annealing
starts with fire forming, then the first two actual loadings. I do not do anymore
annealing on those cases. By the time I'm ready to load the forth time, the cases
have a good carbon layer in the neck which I do not want to disturb.

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I've never heard of them, but I have been considering a similar type of device, the Burst Fire Annealer. I'll check out the Annealeez

https://burstfireguns.com/products/n...se-prep-center

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

Ernest, I do mine the same as you. Propane torch & spun in a deep socket. I also make sure to do it in very low light so I can see the color of the brass. At some point I’m going to build an Induction Coil annealer, but haven’t gotten around to it yet.

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Yeah, our method is simple and doesn't cost much to use. Induction annealing fascinates me and the AMP website has a boatload of info on why induction annealing is better than using a flame, but I have tried to read it a couple of times and my eyes glaze over and I fall asleep! The price tags really puts me off for the small amount of annealing I actually do.

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Originally Posted by jpx2rk

I use an EP annealing machine, similar to others with an adjustable wheel/drum to control the length of time in the single flame. I don't anneal very often as I don't shoot that much in terms of volume, so I do it in "batches" when I clean/process the brass I have used. I shoot mainly 20 and 22 cal, with a small amount of 6BR. I have my "everyday" cases for those calibers and then other brass for those varmint rounds that are kept seperate.

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I've seen those in action and they look well made. All those annealers with the wheels seem to fall in the same price range, I wonder if one stands out above the rest?

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

If you are annealing every time you reload, make sure you check neck thickness. Softer necks tend to gain in thickness and not in length.

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I have a box of unused brass, I'll compare the neck thickness on those with the brass I'm using.

I went the EP machine route after trying the drill/socket and spinner methods. I got tired of counting to "x" when doing several hundred cases at a time. You get everything you need in the package IIRC, and he also provides the list of materials/parts used and their sources so if something goes bad, you can DIY the repairs. I shoot more 20 Practical and 204R than anything else, and annealing the 223 cases before necking them down for 20 P helps keep things a bit more consistent. 204R is a speed demon caliber so it can be hard on brass, and at $.50/pop or so, I want it to last a bit longer if I can. Besides, 204R brass is sometimes hard to find.

As to whether the EP version is better or worse, I can't say but the adjustments for changing caliber/size of brass is simple and easy, it's a no tool adjustment process that takes a few minutes, loosen a wingnut, spin the backing plate in/out to find the depth needed, tighten the wingnut down, and find your speed needed with the speed adjustment knob, and adjust the position of the flame, and go to town. All you have to do is drop the brass case on the shelf and it feeds itself. You do have to handle each piece of brass as the EP version does not have a "hopper" of any kind to hold a few brass that will cycle thru the flame. This is the only down side I see, but I'm retired so I have the time. The machine fits in a small/medium size USPS mailing box, so it does not take up much room in my small cave, and I can set it up on the small old school computer desk I use in my "cave"

I measured neck thickness of 5 cases of the Lapua 6.5 CM brass I've been shooting and four measured between .014 and .015 and one was just below .014. New, unused cases measured just above and below .015. The fired cases are definitely thinner than the unfired. I use a F/L sizing die with expander ball.

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Originally Posted by Ernest T

I measured neck thickness of 5 cases of the Lapua 6.5 CM brass I've been shooting and four measured between .014 and .015 and one was just below .014. New, unused cases measured just above and below .015. The fired cases are definitely thinner than the unfired. I use a F/L sizing die with expander ball.

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If you’re using calipers and not a ball mic’ measure the OD of a loaded round rather than trying to measure neck wall thickness. Annealing softens/weakens brass, for those using an expander ball system in the fl die you may notice thinning of the neck walls after repeated sizing sessions.

I think the aluminum wheel seem worth a bit extra. I have the Annealeez and 3-4 sets of wheel from WSM to 223! It is hard to keep the torch off the wheels!

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Originally Posted by South Prairie jim

If you’re using calipers and not a ball mic’ measure the OD of a loaded round rather than trying to measure neck wall thickness. Annealing softens/weakens brass, for those using an expander ball system in the fl die you may notice thinning of the neck walls after repeated sizing sessions.

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I used a ball micrometer.

Attachment 9267

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Originally Posted by Ernest T

I used a ball micrometer.

Attachment 9267

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That looks like a good one too, now if you’re using an expander ball system in your die that could explain the thinning.

I finally had the time and inclination to read all of the information on the Annealing Made Perfect website and they sure make their equipment sound good. At least they actually have data to back up their claims and have done a lot of brass testing. I have not seen anyone actually test the brass annealed by the flame methods like AMP has done. I'm also not sure that it is as complicated as they make it out to be. One question I have is, AMP talks about flash annealing by reaching a higher temp for a shorter period of time, nominally rising to 1000 degrees F and back to 300 degrees F over 10 seconds. I don't think you can do that with a flame that quickly, but I wonder if that is actually necessary. I anneal my brass for about 9 seconds with the flame aimed at the neck-shoulder junction of the case, which is what the instructions for most of the flame annealers tell you to do. Without testing hardness before and after, how do I know this is actually accomplishing anything?

9 seconds seems like a long time in the flame but you don't mention the caliber/size of the brass. From my readings, most people time it to get a dark red glow in a darkened room and I've never seen a time of 9 seconds. Doesn't mean it's not done, just that I've never seen that time frame mentioned. Some use the Taqliq (?) liquid to get an idea on the length of time for a few times until they get their process down.

Without testing, you never know. The target may tell you or not, the seating force needed to seat a bullet may have a noticeable difference, or the brass may "re-size" better/easier. It depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to fall. Eric Cortina has a video on UT where he "burnt" up a couple cases on purpose to see what would happen, and in his opinion, the brass was still usable.

I love their testing and analysis. Pretty good detail and information. The salt bath results were the biggest surprise to me. I had always been led to believe that most factory annealing was by salt bath and this proves that is ineffective for bottle neck cases.

The test I liked most was the one case tunnel shooting comparison of anneal and not. Each case fired 20 times into same target. No anneal and 0.5" groups were shrunk to 0.3" with anneal.

I would like someone to compare bushing die vs collet die to see if the annealing has different effects. Was also interesting to see the difference of annealing after sizing vs before. The other surprise was how well powder fouling in the neck was for lubricating vs conventional neck lube. I knew it worked well, just didn't know how well. And, I thought the flame annealing would negate the fouling benefit.

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Originally Posted by jpx2rk

9 seconds seems like a long time in the flame but you don't mention the caliber/size of the brass. From my readings, most people time it to get a dark red glow in a darkened room and I've never seen a time of 9 seconds. Doesn't mean it's not done, just that I've never seen that time frame mentioned. Some use the Taqliq (?) liquid to get an idea on the length of time for a few times until they get their process down.

Without testing, you never know. The target may tell you or not, the seating force needed to seat a bullet may have a noticeable difference, or the brass may "re-size" better/easier. It depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to fall. Eric Cortina has a video on UT where he "burnt" up a couple cases on purpose to see what would happen, and in his opinion, the brass was still usable.

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I should have said a nine count as I just count 1,2,3 etc. I don’t use the 1-1000, 2-1000 method which is probably closer to 9 seconds than mine is. I’ve watched a lot of annealing videos and most seem to flame anneal in the 7-8 second range, even the automated ones. This guy actually holds the brass for a count of 10 with his fingers so it takes quite awhile to even mildly heat up the case head area.

https://youtu.be/Url1QguVhHE

I use a Bench Source,2 torch set up that runs off a 20lb. bottle. Similar to this,

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...1&action=click

Set up is easy and it works like a champ, I wish I could justify an AMP induction machine but I'm not a really serious shooter.

I anneal every time, but the payback is illusive. Nothing I can put a finger on that I see on the target. I do see improved cbtd consistency, but again not sure that is showing on target. I see more consistent neck tension load to load….which I don’t know if I see on target,

I went with The Ugly Annealer . The main reason is that this one has a set up that allows me to load 75 + 308 cases in it's "reservoir". Other reasons are the features it offers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNfkM9n-c-c

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Originally Posted by nksmfamjp

I anneal every time, but the payback is illusive. Nothing I can put a finger on that I see on the target. I do see improved cbtd consistency, but again not sure that is showing on target. I see more consistent neck tension load to load….which I don’t know if I see on target,

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This all does get me a bit interested. But, I will have to up my game a bit. I can see my crosshairs drift when shooting so not sure I could see a 1/4MOA difference. And if you don't see 1/2MOA groups on a regular basis then it might not make a difference.

The problem is errors accumulate. We can control some easier than others, and frequently see 'big' gains. 1/2MOA is what I consider the beginning of the rabbit hole. After that the differences are all small. Sometimes you might have to improve several things to see a difference on the target.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

This all does get me a bit interested. But, I will have to up my game a bit. I can see my crosshairs drift when shooting so not sure I could see a 1/4MOA difference. And if you don't see 1/2MOA groups on a regular basis then it might not make a difference.

The problem is errors accumulate. We can control some easier than others, and frequently see 'big' gains. 1/2MOA is what I consider the beginning of the rabbit hole. After that the differences are all small. Sometimes you might have to improve several things to see a difference on the target.

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I swear I can see my heartbeat on the reticle at a magnification of 25 or higher. I think the main payback for me is extending the life of the brass, the potential improvement in accuracy is a bonus. Like you said, errors compound, I'm trying to minimize them.

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Originally Posted by Ernest T

I swear I can see my heartbeat on the reticle at a magnification of 25 or higher. I think the main payback for me is extending the life of the brass, the potential improvement in accuracy is a bonus. Like you said, errors compound, I'm trying to minimize them.

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Same here, I have had some difficulty with neck splits and the like when forming wildcats or reforming one case into another, for instance making .218 Bee or .25-20 from .32-20.

Yep, heartbeat is one. Another is just accurately placing the crosshairs. Getting them on the exact spot every time. I am an impatient person, so I sometimes have a shot go off when I am not exactly on. Also, when I dry fire I can see the shift from the firing pin fall (std front rest and rear bag). Not sure how to get rid of that one.

Never had a problem with brass life (except for .223/5.56 primer pockets). I figure 20 reloads is good enough. The ones I use for cast loads are over 30 and the mouth is worked more on those than standard loads (size, flare, seat, remove the flare). Every now and then I'll see a case neck crack, but, it's one or two out of 50 and usually happens early on.

For wildcats I mostly used new brass. The exception was reforming surplus 7.62 NATO brass to something like a 7mm-08. Most of that stuff I didn't reload much but still never had a split.

That was why I liked the one case, 20 shot test. It showed long term effect of both anneal and not. If you are down the rabbit hole then proper annealing would be a good step to follow.