Night vision/ Thermal optic reccomendations? Feral Swine/Predator control

I'm thinking about jumping into a thermal optic but man they are still pretty pricy to make an uneducated guess.
I know a couple of guys who are using the Bering optics Hogster "vibe" and the AGM rattler "TS30". They all seem very pleased with their choices.
I have been trying to educate myself before dropping so much cash.
It seems there are a couple of new ones coming out and the Pulsar Talion and AGM Adder have caught my attention.
Especially the AGM Adder 50 with 4x base magnification. I do have a few concerns like will 4x base magnification be too much for scanning when trying to locate feral swine at closer distances say 30-75 yards. The pulsar Talion has a near instant start up time of about 3 seconds and appears to be one of their budget options.
Another of the things that concerns me is built in batteries. I know they take external power as well but cant see spending that much on something with a battery that may fail well before the rest of the optic. Most have 3 year warranties and the Bering optics come with 4 years.
Any other pros and cons?

Does anyone else use NV or thermal on a regular basis?
I know some guys think a lot of the Sightmark Wraith which is a much more budget friendly NV option.
I'd love to know what you guys are using, have experience with or would recommend.
Thanks

NV & Thermal has the same losing investment as all electronic devices do. They are all obsolete within a few month's of buying them.
Unless you plan on using them all the time, it's really cheaper to just rent them. There are a couple places online that rent them, and you can try out many different brands and find what works best for you.

I've got a really simple digital NV unit that a machinist here in Texas was making several years ago. It has worked well for my usage in the fields at night hunting pig's. It's like looking at a backup camera mounted on your gun. I don't now if he's still making them, but it's called Resolute Night Vision. I think I paid around $500 for it.
I'd love to have a nice Thermal unit, but I can't see spending $3k - $5k for something that isn't going to get used all the time and loses value quickly.

https://i.imgur.com/pbtFBkl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ONiCa4E.jpg

I just got the SightMark Wraith 4K Mini the other day and the Wraith HD arrived this afternoon.

The Mini with the base 2X has no issue focusing at 40 yards.
Same can’t be said for the 4X as it doesn’t have enough focus to get really clear at 40.

I don’t know how other manufactures and models will perform.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the input.
I'm still trying to figure out the differences in the offerings and which details in the specs vs real world application are going to matter and which ones don't.
Currently waiting on several newer models of thermals to hit the shelves for comparison.

My advice after decades of all night hunting optic usage over the last 30 years, don't put all of your eggs in one basket.
Meaning, don't spend all your money on a thermal scope.
Thermal is king, NV is Queen and Digital NV is the Jack.
To be the top predator in the field, a thermal monocular coupled with a thermal scope is ideal.
Your going to be spotting + scanning more than shooting at targets and thermal is top dog in the detection dept.
Most (me included ) have recommended that a thermal monocular and some type of NV scope is an ideal/cheap way to get into the field.
Once in actual use, you'll realize the limitations of cheap NV once you put the thermal mono down and try to engage the target with a NV scope.
Is it doable, yes, is it frustrating, yes.
Life is to short to be frustrated, especially when your trying to kill something.
Thermal isn't cheap, but with the amount of competition in the market, it's a lot cheaper now.
When I started down the thermal rabbit hole, 160 resolution was top dog and it was very expensive.
Did I say very expensive, I really meant very very expensive.
So expensive that I won't say how much I spent to even my closest friends.
Resolution costs money and if your planning on taking long shot's, a medium base mag 640 resolution scope is recommended.
I prefer a 384 wide FOV spotter, as I use a spotter as a spotter and use the scope to help ID and engage.
I have a pulsar HD19A, but I've been using the AGM TM15-384 monocular for awhile now and it's been a great addition, but as I'm always looking to upgrade, I'm saving my pennies for the AGM Fuzion LRF TM35-640.
Removable 18650 battery, 640 res and LRF !
I can survive with one kidney.
I stick with Pulsar for scopes, as they've always treated me fairly, they have (IMHO) great customer service and their products work for me and I use them a lot in all weather conditions.
I currently have a Thermion XG50 as my primary and an AGM TS25 rattler on my backup small caliber rig.
Get the best you can afford now, as who knows what the future holds.

SJC

"Resurrecting" an older post here, but I've been "educating" myself on these Thermal Scopes. Looking at reviews and also Warranties.

Now...I find this interesting at best. This is part of the warranty for a "Thor LT" Thermal scope:

This warranty does not cover a product (a) used in other than its normal and customary manner; (b) subjected to misuse; (c) subjected to alterations, modifications or repairs by the Customer or by any party other than ATN without prior written consent of ATN; (d) special order or “close-out” merchandise or merchandise sold “as-is” by either ATN or the ATN dealer; or (e) merchandise that has been discontinued by the manufacturer and either parts or replacement units are not available due to reasons beyond the control of ATN. ATN shall not be responsible for any defects or damage that in ATN’s opinion is a result from the mishandling, abuse, misuse, improper storage or improper operation, including use in conjunction with equipment which is electrically or mechanically incompatible with or of inferior quality to the product, as well as failure to maintain the environmental conditions specified by the manufacturer. This warranty is extended only to the original purchaser.

Ok....so if I buy this specific scope....and they decide to no longer "make it" (which could be as simple as changing the name from say..."model 1X" to model 2X") they have now just relieved themselves of any future warranty claims....especially on a product that is giving them a bunch of warranty claims.

What a crock!!!

Well yeah… Understand, these are toys. That’s all. True low light, thermal imaging optics cost thousands of $$! And like very Top Tier rifle scopes, one does not spend this amount of money FOR the warranty, but rather in spite of it.

So, you're saying it's fine to spend $1,500-$2,000 on a toy (and face it.....aren't any of these items we buy "toys"?) that may last you 3 months and that's suppose to be OK if the maker provides zero warranty or cancels their warranty coverage because they have to many claims (poor pre-release testing??) they decide to walk away?

Leupold doesn't do this. I own primarily Leupold scopes and optics. Not JUST for the warranty (because their optic's are very good) as I've had very few Leupold warranty claims made. Well...except the one just last month where my grandkid dropped my Bino's, it cracked one of the adjustable eyepieces.....Leupold sent me a brand new, sealed in the box replacement. This on a low end $175 pair of Bino's.

I'm saying if these companies are producing low end crap for that price range, and walking away from warranty claims, then why would anyone buy a high end product from them? With a dismal warranty claim record, why would anyone want to buy their products? Unless the company is "in it" for a quick cash grab and just movin on?

Ok. I'm fine with that. I just don't wanna be one of their victims....errr....customers.

Never said it was “fine”. Simply stated what is.

I gues I equate that to saying you can buy a 2022 Whatever brand pickup with a 3 year warranty. But when the 2023’s come out they consider the 2022’s discontinued & ergo, void of warranty coverage.

Great business plan.

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Originally Posted by Steeltrap

"Resurrecting" an older post here, but I've been "educating" myself on these Thermal Scopes. Looking at reviews and also Warranties.

Now...I find this interesting at best. This is part of the warranty for a "Thor LT" Thermal scope:

This warranty does not cover a product (a) used in other than its normal and customary manner; (b) subjected to misuse; (c) subjected to alterations, modifications or repairs by the Customer or by any party other than ATN without prior written consent of ATN; (d) special order or “close-out” merchandise or merchandise sold “as-is” by either ATN or the ATN dealer; or (e) merchandise that has been discontinued by the manufacturer and either parts or replacement units are not available due to reasons beyond the control of ATN. ATN shall not be responsible for any defects or damage that in ATN’s opinion is a result from the mishandling, abuse, misuse, improper storage or improper operation, including use in conjunction with equipment which is electrically or mechanically incompatible with or of inferior quality to the product, as well as failure to maintain the environmental conditions specified by the manufacturer. This warranty is extended only to the original purchaser.

Ok....so if I buy this specific scope....and they decide to no longer "make it" (which could be as simple as changing the name from say..."model 1X" to model 2X") they have now just relieved themselves of any future warranty claims....especially on a product that is giving them a bunch of warranty claims.

What a crock!!!

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Friends don't let friends buy ATN optics.
Stick with a reputable optics manufacturer and you shouldn't have to worry about repairing it.
I recently bought an Nvision Halo X50 and now use the Thermion XG50 as a backup.
Both scopes are performers and have BAE cores, the best in the business.
They are not toys.
The thermal scope I bought in the mid 90's still works and I'm hoping to get at least the same lifespan out of my newer thermals, which are made to tighter tolerances and with better components.
Buy the best performing optic you can afford that has the features you want and use it.

SJC

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Originally Posted by shoots100

Friends don't let friends buy ATN optics.
Stick with a reputable optics manufacturer and you shouldn't have to worry about repairing it.
I recently bought an Nvision Halo X50 and now use the Thermion XG50 as a backup.
Both scopes are performers and have BAE cores, the best in the business.
They are not toys.
The thermal scope I bought in the mid 90's still works and I'm hoping to get at least the same lifespan out of my newer thermals, which are made to tighter tolerances and with better components.
Buy the best performing optic you can afford that has the features you want and use it.

SJC

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SJC,....Much appreciate your post. Thanks!!:cool: I don't know what a "BAE core" is....but I'll try to search and find out!

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Originally Posted by Steeltrap

SJC,....Much appreciate your post. Thanks!!:cool: I don't know what a "BAE core" is....but I'll try to search and find out!

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BAE systems. It’s a company that makes Thermal imaging cores. Very good ones.

“Friends don’t let friends buy ATN optics.” LOL! I like that..

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

BAE systems. It’s a company that makes Thermal imaging cores. Very good ones.

“Friends don’t let friends buy ATN optics.” LOL! I like that..

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I know a few people that have had decent experiences with ATN optics and customer service, but far far more that didn't, me included, so I can't/won't recommend their products ever.
Try to stay away from optics that have internal batteries, even though the price is great.
Those are disposable optics and it's worth paying more for an optic that has a replaceable battery in the long run.

I "started out" looking for a NV (IR) scope and was persuaded to look at thermal as they are better for night hunting. So, I went from looking at say and $800 scope to the range of $1,500 to $2,000. That's a lot of $$$$ for an optic (at least from my perspective)

So, then looking at Thermal and researching the reviews I'm finding these "lower priced" ones (the price range I was looking at) are sort of junk. Well, that's ok as it's good to know this information. I understand you can't get quality without cost....for the most part. I'm just not at the level of spending $3-K to $5-K for a scope. Not that there's anything wrong with that and anyone who buys them at that price point I say Kudo's to them!! But I'm just not at that point where I'm willing to spend that much.

Oh well.....back to a red spotlight and my scopes with a lighted reticle!!!

And the X50 seems to come in right at $8,495

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Originally Posted by Steeltrap

I "started out" looking for a NV (IR) scope and was persuaded to look at thermal as they are better for night hunting. So, I went from looking at say and $800 scope to the range of $1,500 to $2,000. That's a lot of $$$$ for an optic (at least from my perspective)

So, then looking at Thermal and researching the reviews I'm finding these "lower priced" ones (the price range I was looking at) are sort of junk. Well, that's ok as it's good to know this information. I understand you can't get quality without cost....for the most part. I'm just not at the level of spending $3-K to $5-K for a scope. Not that there's anything wrong with that and anyone who buys them at that price point I say Kudo's to them!! But I'm just not at that point where I'm willing to spend that much.

Oh well.....back to a red spotlight and my scopes with a lighted reticle!!!

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If you know what your looking for, there are used thermal deals out there.
Thermal prices are way down now, as the market is flooded with rebranded china made optics.
Some are good, some are bad, but with so many people getting into night hunting, there's a lot of reviews out there to help make that decision.
I have a friend that uses his AGM TS35-384 rattler as a spotter and rifle scope.
While that's not my cup of tea, the rattler has a decent FOV and with practice it can be mounted on a rifle in seconds with the QD mount to engage.
I've seen them barely used for a lot less than $2,000 on other forums.
It's going to cost money if you want to step up your game and end the frustration of coming home empty handed after hours of hunting using a red light.
Before I was exposed to thermal many years ago, I had given up on varmint hunting at night with NV and red lights.
Unless it was a close range shot in a field, there was no way to confirm a hit with NV/Red light and that blew many opportunities for taking a finishing shot or a chance at getting a double.
While it does cost money to buy thermal, I don't have to spend the money to repair the holes I've burnt in my Truck and ATV/UTV seats or worry about starting a fire with the red lights anymore.
Thermal is also very helpful at locating downed game and home defense/security.

"Resurrecting" this thread.....This Burris unit caught my attention: https://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-...iflescope.html So I thought I'd toss this Maker\Model out for discussion with those who have some thermal experience. The price point is on my "high end" (well, actually it's a little beyond my high end) but it's from a company with a good name behind it.

Any thoughts on this one?

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Originally Posted by Steeltrap

"Resurrecting" this thread.....This Burris unit caught my attention: https://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-...iflescope.html So I thought I'd toss this Maker\Model out for discussion with those who have some thermal experience. The price point is on my "high end" (well, actually it's a little beyond my high end) but it's from a company with a good name behind it.

Any thoughts on this one?

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I sold the XG and Rattler, so I had two units that made the final list for a new backup scope.
AGM Varmint 35-384 or the Adder 35-384.
I like the Varmint as it uses the same 18650 batteries as my Halo, LRF and has a decent FOV so it can also be used as a spotter, but I'm a left handed shooter and the controls are on the left side, it sits up high because of the QD mount and is a little more money than I want to spend on a backup scope.
I have three spotters already and don't really need another.
So I've decided to get the tube style Adder scope that comes with a QD mount, sit's low for bolt gun use , has top mounted controls like the Thermion I'm used to using and is going to cost me just over $2k with discounts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJgOBAte9o
Even if paying full price, the Adder is a great deal for a 384 12 micron scope that records video and audio.
I really don't like the internal battery of the adder, but with the long battery life of at least 15 hours and external battery input, I think I can get past it.
Reviews have been more than positive with the Adder's performance too.
I looked at the Burris BTS35 scope as it uses 18650 batteries, but it has a wacky mount for bolt gun use that I would need to buy afterwards and you need to swap mounts if you plan to use it on an AR, so it got dumped from my list.

I finally did it. After a lot of research and pondering I had it narrowed down to the Pulsar Talion XQ38, The AGM Adder 35 , Or the Iray Bolt TL 35.(all in about the $2500+- range) The warranty and features of the Iray won out for me, so I finally ordered an Iray Bolt TL35. Its a "tube" type scope very similar to a day optic in shape and size though its pretty heavy and mounts in 30mm rings. Perfect for bolt action or standard sporter style rifles or modern sporting rifles. The price has been dropped from 3200 right now by $600 and it comes with a transferrable 5 year 5 day turnaround warranty. (Nice if tou want to sell or upgrade) I love the battery life (about 10 hrs) and like the fact i can toss a couple of readily available18500 LI rechargeable batteries in my pocket and stay out all night. I really like the uber generous eye relief and having always used scopes in the past have no trouble with "blackout" side to side like some of the videos i saw that listed that as a con to buying this optic.The detection range is amazing (1750 yards on human sized heat signatures) and with 3x base magnification 300+ yard ID is a breeze. It also zooms up to 12X via twisting the " elevation" turret and the PIP doubling each of your selections at the top of the screen. Man something may be concealed from its view behind solid cover but nothing is camoflauged anymore day or night. Thermal is amazing. I can even see footprints for several seconds after an animal has passed. Though its my first thermal Im pretty sure Im hooked. Ive just been scanning with it so far, but once i lock it down on my BAR DBM its gonna be a bad day to be swine... Thanks to everyone who helped me wade through the options and features of each and to Dark Night Outdoors for the help and advice. It only took me 7 months to wade through it.

how well would a thermal work in wind breaks for raccoons?

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Originally Posted by Blue Avenger

how well would a thermal work in wind breaks for raccoons?

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Well just messing around with mine and scanning, I can easily see small birds that think they are hiding while roosting in the leyland cypress trees in my neighbors back yard. Probably about 75 yards away. Really havent tried looking further etc just because thats where those trees happen to be.
If youre just looking for heat signatures in trees Id say one of the handheld scanners/monoculars like the AGM asp for a couple hundred bucks or something like a 25mm/320 series rifle optic would be plenty.

discounted hand held as useless but after reading here a bit I can completely see it as a necessity for scanning simplicity!
Thor any good, starting to see them in stores where it where it probable/maybe returnable if not satisfied.

No first hand experience with them but Everything I've seen looking and studying for the last 7 months, ATN products are buyer beware hit or miss.
I have been repeatedly advised to steer clear and avoid them.

buy once, cry once
if you can't afford to do it right, how can you afford to do it over?
two things i live by.

You might try searching thermal coon hunt and check out a few videos then. Im not really sure about much of the other stuff available but have no doubt that the Iray bolt i picked out for hogs and coyotes would be a great asset for a coon hunter.
I was advised during my search that is be looking at about $2500 to get a decent thermal to fit my needs decent quality and image out to about 200 yards. The late night vision show is pretty informative but they seem quite busy if you call. Dark night outdoors spent well over an hour on the phone answering my questions over multiple conversations. They use these products constantly and are quite knowledgeable. Like other electronic devices it seems capability is constantly going up and prices coming down as the tech progresses.
Good luck. Hope you find the right optic to fit your needs. PS Iray has recently come out with 1280 resolution optics for around $17K �� afraid Id buy once and never stop crying with that one lol

My cousin and i use a Bering Optics thermal for shooting crop damage deer on permit for the past 3 years. Dont know everything about them but it it has worked mostly well for us. It cost over $4,000 when bought and now has an upgraded model with better warranty. Amazing what is visible with it. Although it works i would compare other brads before another is bought. Pulsar is one i would look at.

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Originally Posted by ramon

My cousin and i use a Bering Optics thermal for shooting crop damage deer on permit for the past 3 years. Dont know everything about them but it it has worked mostly well for us. It cost over $4,000 when bought and now has an upgraded model with better warranty. Amazing what is visible with it. Although it works i would compare other brads before another is bought. Pulsar is one i would look at.

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4000?? What… Rupees? :confused:

I’m just kidding. It’s just crazy to me…. I mean, my entire rig.. scope & all was’t $4000.. And it’s a pretty bad butt rig!

Yes they are expensive. Most people don't want to spend that much money but its according to what and how much you will use it for.

It's been a while since I decided on the Iray bolt 320 with the 35mm lens and 3x base magnification and purchased it.
So far its amazing and will let me ID rabbits and coons easily at 200 yards on pitch black nights. Coyotes deer and feral swine much further than that. So far its been a great thermal night vision optic that's held zero with really long battery life. I can go out with a full charge couple extra batteries in my pocket just in case and hunt dusk to dawn. I really like the tube scope style and it doesnt light up the whole blind or the hunter like some of the other styles of thermals like the AGM rattler or Bering hogster.
The only down side I've found is the weight. Its pretty heavy at about 6-8 ounces heavier than the others I mentioned.
It looks like as with other electronics features and resolution are still going up and prices coming down. Ive seen the Iray RICO G series 35 340s with $500 instant rebates at $2499 and the RICO MK1 35 640s 2X base mag for $2999 with extras including a focus lever, lens care kit, extra battery and a Dark Night Outdoors hat. First time I've seen anything decent in a 640 under roughly 5K. All the Irays come with 5 year 5 day turnaround warrantys.
The future of night capability for sportsmen is looking pretty bright.
On the other hand the pigs are getting educated quickly and where they used to stand around in the darkness thinking they were safe, now will bolt at the crunch of gravel underfoot or catching a little wind.
BHJ

Thanks for the update, have you had a chance to look through other thermals than your own ?
While prices are getting cheaper and options getting better, you also need to look really hard at tha core, sensor, display size + resolution and Germanium lens specs the optics have before buying them.
When I started in this game, 50 yards was a far shot, now I can reliably take 400 yard shots and the scope isn't the size and weight of a cinder block.
Although I don't recommend ATN optics, I did purchase a 1280 Res ATN Thor 5 XD 3x LRF scope in April.
In ATN fashion, the 3-4 week wait time that I was told would probably really be 2 weeks has turned into a 12 + week wait time because of some bugs their trying to repair with a firmware update.
While I don't really need another thermal scope, even though I've had issues with my Halo X50 scope, the lure of a 1280 res scope with LRF + ballistic comp system that's made in the USA for under $6,400 was too enticing.
I'm a sucker for thermal optics with bells and whistles waved in front of me, but the excitement has faded with the delays and if it's delayed again, I'm going to try and get a refund.

SJC

Yeah, I've tried a few. The AGM Rattler and The Bering Optics Hogster Vibe. Its my understanding that Bering Optics sources their cores from Infiray. Both manufacturers have good reputations. The others I've looked through had lower base magnification than the 3X in the TL35 Bolt unit I bought. It gives up a little in field of view up close which so far hasn't been a problem, but pays off bigtime in resolution and ability for positive ID at distance when hunting agricultural fields. I also like the controls on my unit better with the major functions being controlled by the top turret. Easy and ambidextorus. Being able to get cheap 18600 batteries and pop a replacement into the side turret for auxillury power seems much better than the power packs and cords velcroed to the rifle that ive seen with other units or propriatary batteries.
Though I'm running mine currently on a Browning BAR DBM in .308 its nice to know my thermal is recoil rated for .300 Win mag. Just gives the reassurance of that " cushion" in recoil resistance vs some of the other units I was looking at.
Actually the more I'm around similar 320x284 units the more I think my research and selecting the Iray bolt TL35 was an excellent choice for my needs.
With everything in the industry moving as fast as it is, I think the 5 year/ 5 day turnaround repair or replace warranty may be a great selling point if I decide to sell it and upgrade.
Heres a link if anyone wants to compare specs
https://irayusa.com/TL35

iRay has sure made a name for themselves with their warranty and they also offer many thermal optic's with advancements that many in the thermal optics sphere didn't think was even possible and at such a low price.
You need to step into the 640 dark side !

SJC