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Hello all!!
New to the group.
This site was recommended to me by Savage Arms because Savage could not answer my question.
I recently purchased the M110 Elite Precision in 223. I understand due to pressures etc., that the factory 556 is not recommended.
My question: Is it safe to reload a 556 case and fire in the 110 Elite Precision? Any issue with case dimensions? or any other concerns.
Thank you for your time.
Regards
For all intents and purposes the cases are the same. However, most 5.56 cases have thicker brass and will have smaller internal capacities. Be safe and load away...
It’s fine to reload the brass. It’s also probably fine to shoot military 5.56. Bout the worst you might see some flattened primers, maybe a case will be a little sticky in the chamber. But safety concern? Not in modern rifles. I have yet to see ANY 223 chamber KB from say an m193 or m855 round. Just sayin’. Certainly follow precautions when reloading. Never load max charge in military brass. But then, that should be followed regardless of brass.
Have you ever seen any reload data 5.56 vs .223? Me either. [emoji2][emoji106]
Match brass. Fire form. Shave to desired length. Reload on.
I shoot a really hot military load from a 10action .223
Cheers mate
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
EXACTLY! 5.56 refers to the Chamber Saami specs....it’s not the ammunition. I’ve loaded 223 much hotter than 5.56 in the past. Granted, it was used in my ARs. People that continue to argue I always ask, well....where is the 223 Wylde ammunition?
This is one area where the military brass is usually larger volume than other mfg brass.
I still use Lapua just because of the number of times I can reload it. I got tired of less than 5 reloads per case of the cheaper stuff. Unless you get if for free or you have a big stash of it.
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Lake City is preferred. Remove crimp, Size, trim, load and fire away. It will never hurt to anneal after ever couple of firings so it will last longer.
Hi Dave,
Just an FYI.
I call Savage regarding shooting factory 556 in the 110 Elite Precision and the Savage tech. guy said absolutely not because of the high pressures the round produces.
Savage does not market this rifle as 223/556 only in 223 and that is why I called them.
Regards
If you look further Savage says to not fire any military ammo of ANY caliber in their rifles. No 7.52x51 NATO, no 7.62x39, no .30 Ball (military .30-06)m etc.
This is a liability issue. Savage will only recommend what is stamped on the barrel. This is to further prevent the average person from loading the wrong caliber round in their firearms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
A pretty decent read:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
I agree. Thanks for that. I like his other stuff as well.
Sig77---Be on the safe and reasonable side of the question and just fire factory ammo marked .223 Remington or if you reload, stay within reloading manuals guidelines for .223 Remington. There is NO difference between the brass between .223 and 5.56mm other than the headstamp and 5.56 brass loaded for and to military specs as earlier posts will be a bit thicker in wall thickness, but not that much. I've reloaded many Lake City and PMC brass that was marked 5.56 for a .223 bolt rifle.
If you want a further read I'd post the link, but I have no idea how to do, but go to RugerForum.Net and read a posting by Iowegn, a well respected and knowledgeable shooter and gunsmith. Go to the e-Library and check out Iowegan's article titled '.223 Rem/5.56mm NATO Ammo and Chambers'. A real revealing, informative, and interesting article. The Ruger Forum's sections can be found by clicking the 'stacked' ._ symbol just to the right of a circled 'new' in the upper right hand corner of the screen. Give's the full skinny on .223 vs 5.56mm.
Should a person shoot 5.56mm full NATO 62 grain bullets in a rifle chambered for .223 Remington, alot of shooters will say it's ok. Old saying--'Let the buyer beware'! Following basic and proven reloading recipes with 50-55 grain bullets, accurate ammo can be loaded to various velocities fps and accuracy. I have a Savage Model 14 American Classic in .223 I bought a year ago and dead on groups can be attained. You don't need to load to military specs. I'll load a bit different for my semi-auto chambered 5.56mm's, but I'm not using them to fight in the trench's at an enemy shooting back at me with them either. If shooting factory ammo for your .223 rifle, a wide margin of bullets/velocities of ammo can be used if in supply. Don't fall into trap of someone who buys/attains 5.56mm NATO ammo because its all that is available. Savage warrants their products for a reason and says NOT TO due certain things for a reason. If you access Iowegan's post on the Ruger Forum you'll see why not to shoot ammo marked 5.56mm NATO with 62 grain bullets.
Ammo marked M193 with 55 grain bullets is nothing but the original ammo designed for the M16/AR15 back in the early days of development of the cartridge. In one of his posts on another question on the Ruger Forum when the subject came up, Iowegan advised that alot of ammo producers mark their 5.56mm ammo with 55 grain bullets 'NATO' for selling purposes. It is in reality a throwback to the early days of the M16, but ammo marked 5.56mm Nato with 55 grain bullets is nothing more and the same as .223 Remington. Just don't fire/shoot ammo marked M-855 5.56mm NATO with the 62 grain bullets in your .223 rifle. This is due to the longer 62 grain bullet and shape of its ogive when chambered in a rifle marked/chambered for .223 Remington seating more forward in the throat, even touching the lands. This is where the higher pressures are generated. Why risk well being and damage to your rifle just for the 'hype' of shooting full military NATO 62 grain ammo. Zipped up .223 ammo can be loaded, but with bullets more in line with the 55 grainers. Most of what I've penned here comes from Iowegan's article.
In my years of shooting, pushing 60 of them and my 21 years of law enforcement, I've seen plenty of "Johnny-I Don't Give a Crap' and 'Johnny-I'm gonna really impressive everyone' types toss established safety and rules when it come to firearms and many of the times it has resulted in damaged firearms and physical injury. Many of em will come to a range, shooting or hunting area bouncing in in their big tire 4-wheel drive pickup, wearing their baseball cap backwards, wearing a flannel shirt, and have a big chew of tobacco in their mouth or a cigarette between their teeth. Pull out their hand held or shoulder fired howitzer they've loaded the ammo to the Nth degree and have the attitude, "I'll show em what shootin is, what this baby can do"!!! A less than harmonious outcome many times results. This is stretchin it, but many times true, but the moral of the story is "Why take the chance."
Just sayin!!!!!!!
While I agree with much of Iowegan has said over the years, I wouldn’t exactly look at him as some “Guru”. I think this is a much more explanative article on the matter. It actually shows what even most get wrong, as it being a difference in pressure. https://ultimatereloader.com/2018/08...cts-and-myths/ Of course error on side of caution if you are not certain of your firearms. I can tell you I’ve shot countless m193 & m855 rounds in 223 chambers. And yes, I’ve experienced a “sticky” chamber with them here & there. But I’ve never encountered or even HEARD of someone having a catastrophic failure from shooting quality military ammunition. However, I did ALWAYS know what was safe in each chamber I used. I never just threw caution to the wind. I encourage research & knowing your equipment.
I guess it's sort of like driving a vehicle around a curve, you bet a person may make it around a curve with a posted speed limit of 50 mph driving 80 mph, but why take the chance, sooner or later the law of physics will take effect.. A shooter may get away with shooting NATO 62 grain M-855's in a .223 Remington chambered rifle a dozen times or a dozen years, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. Sorta like shooting 22LR rounds in a single action Magnum cylinder, ya can get away with it, but there are consequences. Iowegan is very knowledgeable, a person can go along with what he says or disregard. I've found over the years he's pretty much right on target. Not labeling him a 'Guru', but he makes more sense than alot of the 'cyber space hell with what's right, do what ya wanna do' crowd. Not putting you in there Dave, but IMO ya shouldn't be shooting M-855 rounds in your .223 rifle. Ya take care.
Does anyone really know what chamber and throat Savage uses on their rifles? If they do use a longer throat then that means any 5.56 or .223 ammo would be fine in it. Savage also manufactures the MSR and labels it as .223/5.56. Do they use the same chamber reamer with those and the bolt rifles?
FWIW, I shoot Sierra 77gn SMK's loaded out quite a ways. I am still 0.020" from the lands. That suggests to me that Savage cuts a longer throat than the SAAMI spec.
If I were to recommend to someone else, and I was a professional gunsmith (ie, it is how I make my living), then I would never recommend 5.56 in a .223 barrel unless I personally checked the dimensions of that particular rifle. Just too much liability at stake.
PS liability issues would tell me than any modern gun mfg is using a longer throat on their .223 chambers just in case people load it with 5.56 ammo. That would involve some common sense on the part of the mfg, so, may not be true. :)
There is all kinds of 556 data. You just have to look. SW powders has a bunch of it. So does Lovex. The maker of SW.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamiltonkiler
I use LC once fired 556 brass in 12 FTR 223. FL sized, pocket swaged, trimmed, etc. Its 223 when it comes out of press. FIRED case capacity 31.0 gr H20 in my chamber.
the guy knows little other than what the LAWYERS told him to say.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTORY AMMO AND THEN RELOADING BRASS 223 VS 5.56
there is about a 7000 psi diff in the two ammo's.
higher pressure is a POSSIBILITY IN A CUSTOM SHORT THROATED VARMINT RIFLE..not in a long range 1/7 twist rifle
in the usa due to lawyers it is unlikely you will find 556 ammo loaded hitter than 223...just because so many rifles are marked both.
as far as the brass goes, for accuracy mil brass is smaller in vol and less quality.
one day when i was bored i weight sorted some mil brass, then filly prepped a large lot, then re weight sorted.
ended up with 30 or so cased that had the same VOLUME. A lot of work, lapua match, ot sort thru a 1000 new win,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig77
poor example. road speed limits have little to to with a specific car or driver. more like generic aver car driver in poor conditions.
in one state it is common knowledge that even the "safe known speed" is reduced to a fixed percent lower..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage 94C
No offense pdshooter2, but I've 21 years behind me as a Police Officer and have delt with those who tried to 'buck' the system/law and physics by exceeding the posted/suggested speed limit around curves. Either issued a citation, help load in an ambulance, or helped load a body bag, sometimes zipping it shut. Sometimes having to advise love ones that their family member isn't coming home. To many behind the wheel thinking they are NASCAR qualified, laws are for everyone else, and thinking it's their Constitutional Right to drive as they please. Stay Safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by pdshooter2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage 94C
unsafe driving is unsafe driving...plain and simple. the point it happens in NOT the same for all drivers or car in use.
i have on track experience from the early 70's thru the late 90's
posted speed limits do not determine the safe driving limits, only legal limits
rifles have a FIXED safety pressure min built in....not driver nor load dependent.
done
As I penned, I've delt with drivers in the past that thought they had it all together. Most of those had no regard for the safety/lives of others on the road, only out there trying to be macho, but only shows their disregard and incompetence. My scenario stands.
Getting back to 5.56 vrs .223 Rem, I have interchanged both factory types on numerous platforms and found no safety issues. My plinker reloads are mixed brass types, serious target rounds are brand and weight selected. A modern firearms manu. wouldn't put out a firearm that would blowup if you put a NATO round in it. Once the 5.56 brass goes through a .223 Rem die, its sized .223. Trim to correct length, I cut out the primer crimp, and load them up. Keep safe everyone.
A custom, tight Target chamber..yeah it would likely see some dangerous pressure using NATO 5.56. But modern, factory Actions? I’ve never seen any danger. As I’ve said before, the worst Iv’e ever seen was a case stuck in the chamber. Bit over overpressure, sure. But other than, no other pressure signs.
I have also said though, it’s up to each person to KNOW their equipment. To KNOW their firearms & safety margins. The last 1911 I built, I built specifically to fire 450Smc besides 45ACP. 185gr pills @ 1350fps. That is a STOUT cartridge which can severely damage a standard or especially a “Target” 1911. But I use a standard SW1911 barrel & have it sprung properly. I KNOW my firearm & what it can handle.
what you are saying is BASICALLY TRUE in the USA.
99% of 5.56 ammo commercially sold in the usa is NOT OVER 223 SPECS.
heck there are makers that mark guns 223/556...tho it cannot be.
the safety specs and the small diff in the 2 chambers/rounds, means a blown primer, stuck case, dirty pants...not much else
just be careful
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsonofbob
Your not talking factory loads, you mentioned RELOADING. Your good with any brass until you push hard. Then things start to change between the brands of brass. One 5 round group will look great, perfect primers. The big thing every one forgets is that pressure sighs don't show up when your close to over, they show WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY OVER! The next one will have 3 blown primers, also blowing out the extractors while trying to shoot them. Only difference was the brass.
Shooting prairie dogs with safe loads you will never know the difference. Shooting 0.250@100 yd groups? you will learn there is a difference in brass
Well, I’d say the pressure signs come LONG before it’s “over”, as you say. Flattened primers, sticking in chamber. Hell, a blown primer is a great warning sign to STOP & see what’s going on. My take on it anyway.
Sig77, the guy who asked the questions, hasn't logged in since Oct 31st. :whistle:
Yeeeup! I noticed that Phil. But guys seemed to be talking, so I chimed in. Good for new, perhaps lesser experienced members maybe?
Hard to say Dave.
Try the Hornady Manual. It has data for 223 Remington AND 5.56 NATO. Sierra does also, in a round about way, they list it as 223 Service Rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamiltonkiler
To say that there is no difference? Not so much. I have been 'Rolling My Own' since 1974 and have used 5.56 and 223 brass interchangeably, just watch your load data. Back off a little when using Mil Spec brass and you will be fine.
Let the flame war begin!
Randie
Fort Smith, AR
You will find that the biggest differences in the US made Lake City 5.56 cases vs the .223 case is hard ness. And if you want your brass to last a long time then do not load HOT.
223 -vs- 5.56: FACTS and MYTHS – Ultimate Reloader
https://i.imgur.com/LjAQ7L9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PExmCCk.jpg
Partially correct. LC brass is both thicker & harder in key areas. LC brass is very good brass. It’s not match, but can be made darn close with a little brass prep. It makes fantastic everyday, STUFF. H.T.F., & range loads. Most guys get 6-8 loads out of it.. not pushing it too hot. I’ve known some to get 10 no problem. Typically it’s the primer pockets that give up first.
I don't pay attention to 5.56 or .223. Maybe if I had an older rifle I might take a bit of care.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCoulter52
I looked up the Sierra information and compared to Hodgdon. 69gn Sierra Match King loads, Varget powder.
AR-15 data 26.1gn max 2.260oal (Federal case)
Bolt data 26.4gn max 2.260oal (Federal case)
Hodgdon 26.0gn max 2.235oal (Win case) I wonder why Hodgdon loads them shorter? Their test barrel is also a 1:12 instead of the faster twists
The thickest area of the 5.56 case is the flash hole web that adds strength to the base of the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
https://i.imgur.com/JcVlKzc.jpg
I have two AR15 type rifles and a Ruger bolt action with a 5.56 chamber. And at 71 years of age, I buy once fired Lake City 5.56 cases and see no difference with older eyes than with more expensive brands of brass.
https://i.imgur.com/4kXrGuI.png
You guys must not push them at all. I only get 4 reloads out of them before the primer pockets enlarge. 77gn SMK's at 2800fps.
Lapua has been the only brass to give me any decent life. More than 15 reloads.
If it was the 'old days' and I got the stuff for free I wouldn't worry about it. :)
Charlie, do you cut or Swage the crimps of the pockets? I’ve found that to make a difference. And yes, you are right. Push the loads & the cases start cracking or as most often is the case, the primer pockets, like you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
I have yet to get a cracked .223 case. And I do not anneal them. All of my .223 case failures have been from the primer pocket enlarging.
I cut the crimps. I won't change brands at this point. My barrel has almost 4000 rounds through it now and I have a new box of 100 Lapua cases sitting on the shelf. Since the first 100 have given me almost 2000 rounds I think I might wear out the barrel before I need more brass :)
Yeah, I think that is a big part. Most people cut the crimps. And from some of what I’ve seen, those who Swage, get much better primer pocket longevity.
It would have to triple the life to make a difference to me.
Well, you’re comparing to Lapua brass for crying out loud, LOL! Seriously; to me the LC is good mostly for practice, and to those who want a little nest egg of ammo loaded. 500, 1000 rounds, possibly more. Instead of have just 100 pieces to keep recycling.
Also talking 223, there are two different kinds. Those of us with BOLT actions who are loading for extreme accuracy every time. And those of us with an AR15 of other Semi auto. I only have my my ARs for 223, don’t have a 223 bolt gun. I load for accuracy, but within magazine length 2.25” max. So it’s not going to be supreme accuracy. I have my BTHP bullets for accuracy proofing mostly. But I pick up the Hornady 55gr FMJBT whenever I see it for a good deal. I load THOSE in my LC brass in some quantity, to keep around as range plinking ammo.The good pills I keep for Lapua or my good Norma brass when I’m feeling FROGGY!
Yeah, I know. :)
I would probably not be using the expensive stuff if I had bought up a bulk package of LC brass years ago. I think they were going for $50 for buckets of them.
I kinda miss the 'old days'. I'd just pick up a couple of ammo can loads of brass at the range. I had 5gal buckets full of 7.62, 5.56, and .45acp. Later on the military started checking how much brass you turned in. The scales were pretty accurate :)
Years ago I got 1000 LC 7.62 to resize & make 260 Rem cases. They work perfectly. Then, for the last 3 years I was looking for LC 5.56 with no luck. I got to the point that I was looking for ANY 223 brass. A very kind member here, Shooter0203 offered the 223 he had as he didn’t shoot 223 any longer. I accepted graciously, thinking it was maybe 100 cases of Remington, Hornady & the like. Ended up being about 400 LC cases & some mixed headstamp also. I was beyond thankful! I still look for it anywhere I can. I also have 120 cases of Norma as well. Those are my grouping cases. And I’ll likely pick up some Lapua at some point because, well, Lapua is awesome!