Hi I have a model 111 30-06 thinking about making it a 300 rum or getting the 110 long range 338 and swapping its barrel out
Any thoughts,, ideas or maybe a better way togo about it.
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Hi I have a model 111 30-06 thinking about making it a 300 rum or getting the 110 long range 338 and swapping its barrel out
Any thoughts,, ideas or maybe a better way togo about it.
The bolt face on the 110 in 338 Lapua would need changing also, unless you decided on a 300 Norma instead of a 300 Ultra.
As for thoughts, mine would be to start with a different action, like a Mark V Weatherby.
Thanks for the reply. Why would u go with the weatherby
Well first don’t get the idea that I’m trashing Savage actions, because I’m not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kdiff
But when we start talking about one of the largest 30 caliber cartridges, or any other large cartridge, i personally think there are better ones to use.
Just because we can, doesn’t always mean we should.
There is a thing that can take place after firing a gun numerous times called (lug setback,) which creates a very dangerous situation called excessive headspace.
Sometimes it’s best to seek the advise of an experienced professional gunsmith for these type decisions, which i am not.
having just built a 338 edge on a savage action, i would suggest a target action in a mag bolt face,
or just start with a rem 700 mag donor.
savage sucks when trying to provide a solid bed and or pillars. the target action might work but not sure if available in a basic mag caliber.
you can read what i did in "inexpensive 2000 yard rifle" in the build section.
( 338 edge is just a 338 version of a 300 rum, kinda sorta)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kdiff
Since the 338 Edge cartridge has been mentioned, and since it’s parent case is the 300 Ultra Mag, who better to ask your question than the creator of that cartridge?
He is among many other things an accomplished gunsmith who specializes in large cartridge rifles, some being larger than the Edge for the extreme distances.
His name is Shawn Carlock, his company name is Defensive Edge, located in Rathdrum Idaho, phone # 208 687 2659.
I don’t personally know him nor has he ever done any work for me, but he seems to have a very good reputation.
I would urge you to contact him, and please keep us posted as to his opinions/answers to your questions.
I've not heard of any issues of lug setback with RUM and WSM size cases in the Savage action. They are not pushing the action beyond its safety margins. Of course you have to be as careful when working up loads as with any other round or action. Now if you were talking about a Lapua or 378 Weatherby size case, then I would warn against it.
What's your objective with this cartridge? What are you looking to do?
For long range elk hunting
Savage makes a 110 long range rifle in a 338 lapua.
[QUOTE=Kdiff;462742]Savage makes a 110 long range rifle in a 338 lapua.[/QUOTE
Yes they do, and if you have been reading the posts here lately you will find that the Administrator (site owner) has stated that there have been lug setback issues with some of them.
As for the 30x378, i used one for about 25 years, so you might say I’m somewhat partial, but fact is there isn’t much difference between it and the 300 Rum other than case dimensions.
That said i also knew a guy who built a 30x378 on a 98 Mauser action.
Do whatever floats your boat, but i can tell you if you ever witness one fly apart due to headspace issues as i have, it will for sure change your opinion on things.
I say go for the Rum if that’s what you want, but spend a little extra on the foundation for it.
Why have one if you cant push it to it’s max as for performance anyway without being worried about it?
Might just as well get a 300 Win Mag and be happy, for sure it will do a good job for you.
Right now I’m pushing 190s at 3400 FPS with the 300 Norma case on a Mark V action.
You could do that with the Rum also, but I wouldn’t be trying it on a Savage action.
Who told you of the lug setback? I'd like to research that. Was it with the factory actions that are designed for the Lapua or another action that someone screwed a barrel in to? The Savage Lapua actions undergo a different heat treatment to make them stronger and have thicker lug recesses. I have not heard of any lug setback issues with them nor have mine given me any trouble. Any action can experience lug setback if someone loads the rounds too hot and doesn't practice safe reloading. Frankly, I've never understood what makes the Weatherby so much stronger. I get the 9 locking lugs but they're so small, I've often wondered if the overall bearing area is really that much greater. Aside from that, I see no advantage. The ring diameter is no bigger than a Savage or Remington and it uses the same barrel shank and thread size as the Remington if I remember correctly.
Now I have heard of lug setback happening when someone takes a regular Savage action and tries shooting the Lapua in it but haven't heard of it with the actual Lapua action. I'd think Savage would have recalled them if there were reports of that happening or the risk of it.
Every Lapua and Rum action I have worked on has had lug set back on the top lug abutment. Why on the top lug abutment? Because the top abutment is the thickest. The bottom lug abutment is weaker because it transitions into a feed ramp, thus it flexes with the bolt head. The top lug ends up taking the majority of the the bolt thrust. The bottom lug abutment is almost .050" shorter on the Lapua action to make room for a longer magazine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Well that’s concerning and disappointing to hear. I thought the lapua specific actions were beefed up enough to not have that problem. Mine haven’t had a problem yet but I really haven’t shot them that much either. Wonder why savage wouldn’t recall them?
Is there a point to where it stops after the steel compresses so far or breaks? I don’t suppose you could reset your headspace after so much and be ok?
every SAVAGE action ???
or all actions ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Just to be clear, Savage actions that were originally chambered for 338 Lapua and the Rem ultra mags.
Ok so where does this leave the OP who wants to use his 111 action for a 300 Rum build?
Or any other person out there having similar ideas?
That's a good question. Honestly, I've built and tinkered with these things for quite a few years now. Not claiming to be an expert by any means, so please don't misunderstand. With that being said, up until this thread, I'd never heard of people having problems with RUM's and lug setback. I have heard of it happening with the Lapua size case but never the RUM size.Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
as i see it ..no where
stories
hearsay
no DATA on what caused the setback .
someone claims to have seen setback but has no data on what caused it.
no savage recall nor safety warning, so i suspect poor loading discipline.
no an issue for normal loads and reasonable safe approach to loading.
Thanks guys for the advice. Im a big savage gun fan. I enjoy shooting them. Im glad for your alls advice i almost bought the 110 338 lapua long range. Im glad for all the advice i got on here and i will just build my larger rum and lapua and still keep my smaller guns savage thanks
Just out of curiosity, what do you plan to use action wise for a RUM or Lapua?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kdiff
Well i for one am very pleased that the Administrator and Sharpshooter have both weighed in on this topic/post.
Needles to say that both are excellent authorities on all gun related issues, especially Savage.
Who better to have an opinion than one who has made a living building Savage competition guns, and who himself is a record holding competitor.
Be advised however that all of us have opinions, and that includes professional gunsmiths.
And sometimes those opinions can be somewhat biased toward certain products.
That certainly wouldn’t be the case here however so that needs to be considered.
As for Wetherby, knowledgeable people run hot and cold on those also.
Bruce Baer who i know very well for many years isn’t a big fan for Wetherby actions.
But that’s not saying he would prefer a Savage either.
And obviously I don’t always take what he says seriously, unless i know he is being very serious.
I've read a lot about the Weatherby MKV over the years too. Again, I am by no means an expert. But from the measurements I've read, I just don't see what makes the MKV so much stronger. The measurements I've read on the locking lugs shows no more bearing surface area of them than with two large locking lugs. The receiver ring and barrel shank are the same size as a Remington or Savage. Not trying to argue, just thinking out loud based on what I've found.
I've spoken recently with other guys who shoot Savage Lapuas and have a lot more rounds through theirs than I do mine. They have not found any increase in headspace or any indication of lug setback. There are many factors unknown that could come in to play. I'm wondering if the users who've had issues have either been shooting hand loads that are way too hot, well over max, or if they've got too much oil in their chamber that they didn't clean out. This could cause issues with any size cartridge due to the case not being able to grip the chamber walls upon firing and causing too much bolt thrust. I always swap my chambers with a degreaser after cleaning and prior to firing them.
Also, as litigious as society is, and as hard as the left is trying to shut down the firearm industry, 2nd amendment, etc, I can't for the life of me understand why Savage wouldn't recall them, issue warnings, and stop production of them if there was any indication that they were too dangerous/unsafe to operate. Again, if someone were to try a Lapua on a standard Savaqe action, I'd say yeah they're asking for trouble. But with the actions Savage makes that are specifically for the Lapua, I've yet to see anything detrimental. I'd like to see photos of the actions and their lug recesses that are claimed to have setback, as well as know what loads they were using, and if they had oil in their chamber or not.
Well you do have the opinion of one professional gunsmith who if anything has earned a reputation with Savage products.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
That should at least cause enough concern in my opinion to be asking those questions to other professionals.
As for a specific action, my grandson has a 308 model FCP if my memory is correct.
It was available in 2 different chambering, 308 and 338 Lapua.
So other than the boltface, was the 308 a different action than the Lapua?
It does give me some concern and I respect Fred's expertise. All I'm saying is, I hadn't heard it anywhere else but from a few on here and haven't experienced the issues myself. As to your question about the FCP, yes it absolutely is a different action. They are not just putting a larger bolt face on the bolt of a standard 110 action. Have you seen the Lapua actions Savage makes? Of course the 308 is a short action as well. The Lapua actions are large shank, have a small ejection port to make the receiver stronger, are heat treated differently to make the steel stronger overall, and also have thicker locking lugs for greater shear strength. Like others have said, it would have been better had they made them wider too for greater surface area. If you haven't looked at one of their Lapua actions first hand, do so if you can, or look at photos online and you'll easily notice the smaller ejection port. And I still keep coming back to the question of, if it's not safe then why hasn't Savage recalled them? I'm at work now but if you'd like I can post a pic of mine after I get home to show how the receiver opening is more enclosed.Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
If I were to build a rifle and wanted to use a 338LM cartridge, I would look at a receiver built by Stiller, the TAC 338. Personally I went with the Mausingfield for my 300 Norma Magnum build.
Savage actions have their purpose, but I wouldn't build a 338LM and cartridges like that off of a Savage action. If you still want to shoot long range, I would look at a wildcat cartridge such as the 7mm-300 Win mag. Or go to the 300PRC. If you insist on wanting to shoot something bigger, than look at a receiver better designed to handle the pressures.
Well if in fact the FCP is the Lapua special action, then yes of coarse I’ve seen one since i bought it, cleaned it, and was the first to shoot it.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
I didn’t scrutinize it and compare it with other Savage actions i have however, nor would i have had the expertise to pick out differences if i had.
Which in my opinion is a major issue with hobby gunsmithing and even with some so called pro’s.
The gun is by the way as accurate right out of the box as any custom gun I’ve ever owned. We didn’t even bother with load work up as the first group was that good. But then the 338 Lapua or a 300 Rum is a different animal than a 308 for sure.
How long have these things been being produced? Not all that long to my memory.
And how many rounds will the average guy send thru them assuming its simply a hunting gun?
That to my mind might be the reason we’ve not heard more about it.
If you're referring to your grandsons' 308 FCP, then no it's not the Lapua action but a standard action. However, if you buy one in 338 Lapua, it has the specific action I'm referring to. I believe you misunderstood. Only the ones chambered in 338 Lapua are going to have that special action, except I believe they are using the same action on certain models chambered for 300 win mag as well. But the 308 would have the standard action.
How long have they been chambering the 338 Lapua? Since at least 2009 or 2010 to the best of my recollection, maybe longer. So yeah it's been a while now and still no recalls on them.
And no, from what I see, more folks are using them for target shooting at long range and shooting many more rounds than one would with just a hunting rifle. I just spoke to a gentlemen the other day who's shooting a 110FCP and asked him if he'd had any issues with lug setback. He has about 3000 rounds through his and says he's noticed no difference in headspace.
I myself have two Savages in 338 Lapua. One is a 110 LRH and the other is a 112 Magnum Target. Now I don't have as many rounds through mine but have had no trouble with them either.
I think you guys may have misunderstood me or maybe I've misunderstood you. So just to be clear, I am not advocating that they should/can be safely built on a standard Savage action and never have. But there are distinct differences in the factory made Lapua actions Savage is building. Dimensionally they are the same size as a regular Savage long action, and I will admit as others have said, it would have been better to make the action bigger overall. However, it does undergo different processes to make it stronger as I've stated before. I did not have time last night to pull mine out of the safe and photo it next to a standard action to post but will try to make time to do so asap. But I promise you a model 10FCP 308 is not the same animal, action wise, as the 110FCP in 338 Lapua.