How to remove extreme copper galling from a brand new barrel?

Brand new shilen barrel on a custom build (not a savage). Barrel had never been fired. I shot 20 rounds through it and noticed a tight spot when cleaning it about mid way through the barrel, between 10-11 inches from the breech.
I use my lyman bore cam to see what is going on and I find this:


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This area is only about 1-2 inches long. The rest of the bore looks fine/has no copper. I have been using foaming bore cleaner, sweets 762, and some VFG pellets with JB bore paste on them. Nothing seems to be doing anything to this thick galling. I have never had a bore with copper in it as thick as this, especially after only 20 rounds! Any time I have had copper in a bore, a quick treatment with JB bore paste cleaned it right out in no time. This stuff is on there so thick, I am at a loss of what to do with it. You can feel this spot when pushing a patch down the bore with a cleaning rod. It feels like "rough" or "slightly tight" spot in the bore because the buildup is so thick.
Was shooting factory ammo (S&B), so it was not a super hot handload or anything.
I am at a loss as to why this would happen, and how to remove it.

Time for electrolytic cleaning?

You should look down my pipe. Then shoot it.

What is your performance? Group wise


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I'd be contacting Shilen, and look into sending it back. Is it a select match barrel? Their select match grade barrels are air gaged and tight spots like that are removed. Watched them doing that at the factory a couple of years ago. They've got some amazing equipment :first:

I'm certainly no expert but it looks to me like you've got a trouble maker there and no amount of hand polishing is going to fix it.

Texas 10 Gets a Like

Thank, RH. I always appreciate a like, but am worried...did you get a LAKE with that T.S? Holy cow that was a lot of rain !!
Was that yet another 500 yr. flood in the past 2 years?

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Texas 10 Gets a Like

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Plug the bore and fill it full of Sweet's for a coupla days.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Plug the bore and fill it full of Sweet's for a coupla days.

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I thought that stuff was not supposed to stay in a barrel longer than 15 min?


I did take a plug the bore with a earplug and fill it with some shooters choice MC-7 and let it soak all day sunday. I had been using it when breaking in this barrel and two others. The patches turned blue and it seemed to work pretty good on the copper. So I figured letting it soak in it could help. Well, it did not. It did nothing.
The confusing part, was I did not feel the rough/tight spot the whole time during break in. I was doing the 1 shot and clean for the first 5, then shot 5 and cleaned, shot 5 and cleaned, then shot the last 5 and went home to finish. It was then that I felt the tight/rough spot. So I swear this had to have happened on the last 5 rounds. Maybe it started sooner, but did not build up enough to feel until the last 5? I cleaned until the patches were no longer blue between firings.
I let it soak in some foaming bore cleaner several times to no avail. Usually that stuff always comes out blue. It did the first time right after I got back from the range, but after the first time, it no longer comes out blue.
I ordered some KG-12 bore cleaner. I have been seeing a lot of reviews about it saying it is really good for copper removal. I guess we will see.

I agree with Texas10, Robinhood and wbm! I would think that Shilen would like to know about the defect and make it right.

Well, first of all this notion that something bad will happen after 15 minutes is total BS. Ammonia is a base, not an acid. It will do nothing to steel. The fact is that if you apply Sweets with a patch, in 15 min. it is totally spent and has dissolved all of the copper that amount will do, and now is just evaporating. By the time you push a patch through the throat, you have essentially wrung most of the solvent out of the patch, so now it is not even really "wet", just moist. Most of the blue comes from the ammonia working on the brass jag because it has the most surface area. Once that "moist" patch is pushed through the bore, it only takes a matter of a few minutes for it to evaporate, giving the "less than adequate amount" of solvent enough time to just clean the tarnish off the copper fouling before it is expended. If you fire more shoots at this stage, the copper fouling will only get worse, because you have essentially "fluxed" the remaining copper and subsequent firing will make the copper fouling adhere easier.
Let the solvent do the work! Put enough in to do the job. Don't use a brush, or a patch, use a MOP. Make it sopping wet as it can be. Let it set for 15 minutes,after that, it's not dissolving anymore. Then push it out with a patch and do it again, or maybe more if it's not gone yet. If it's bad as yours looks, plug it at the chamber and fill to the muzzle. In 2 days , you will push a big blue goober out of the end.
Once you get all the copper out, if you notice any pitting, it was caused by galvanic corrosion, not by solvent. Galvanic corrosion occurs between the copper fouling and the barrel. Copper solvent only reveals what is underneath once the copper is gone. That's why it's important to stay on top of copper fouling.....the longer it sets with it, the worse the corrosion.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Well, first of all this notion that something bad will happen after 15 minutes is total BS. Ammonia is a base, not an acid. It will do nothing to steel. The fact is that if you apply Sweets with a patch, in 15 min. it is totally spent and has dissolved all of the copper that amount will do, and now is just evaporating. By the time you push a patch through the throat, you have essentially wrung most of the solvent out of the patch, so now it is not even really "wet", just moist. Most of the blue comes from the ammonia working on the brass jag because it has the most surface area. Once that "moist" patch is pushed through the bore, it only takes a matter of a few minutes for it to evaporate, giving the "less than adequate amount" of solvent enough time to just clean the tarnish off the copper fouling before it is expended. If you fire more shoots at this stage, the copper fouling will only get worse, because you have essentially "fluxed" the remaining copper and subsequent firing will make the copper fouling adhere easier.
Let the solvent do the work! Put enough in to do the job. Don't use a brush, or a patch, use a MOP. Make it sopping wet as it can be. Let it set for 15 minutes,after that, it's not dissolving anymore. Then push it out with a patch and do it again, or maybe more if it's not gone yet. If it's bad as yours looks, plug it at the chamber and fill to the muzzle. In 2 days , you will push a big blue goober out of the end.
Once you get all the copper out, if you notice any pitting, it was caused by galvanic corrosion, not by solvent. Galvanic corrosion occurs between the copper fouling and the barrel. Copper solvent only reveals what is underneath once the copper is gone. That's why it's important to stay on top of copper fouling.....the longer it sets with it, the worse the corrosion.

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This was great. Thank you for such an informative post.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Well, first of all this notion that something bad will happen after 15 minutes is total BS. Ammonia is a base, not an acid. It will do nothing to steel. The fact is that if you apply Sweets with a patch, in 15 min. it is totally spent and has dissolved all of the copper that amount will do, and now is just evaporating. By the time you push a patch through the throat, you have essentially wrung most of the solvent out of the patch, so now it is not even really "wet", just moist. Most of the blue comes from the ammonia working on the brass jag because it has the most surface area. Once that "moist" patch is pushed through the bore, it only takes a matter of a few minutes for it to evaporate, giving the "less than adequate amount" of solvent enough time to just clean the tarnish off the copper fouling before it is expended. If you fire more shoots at this stage, the copper fouling will only get worse, because you have essentially "fluxed" the remaining copper and subsequent firing will make the copper fouling adhere easier.
Let the solvent do the work! Put enough in to do the job. Don't use a brush, or a patch, use a MOP. Make it sopping wet as it can be. Let it set for 15 minutes,after that, it's not dissolving anymore. Then push it out with a patch and do it again, or maybe more if it's not gone yet. If it's bad as yours looks, plug it at the chamber and fill to the muzzle. In 2 days , you will push a big blue goober out of the end.
Once you get all the copper out, if you notice any pitting, it was caused by galvanic corrosion, not by solvent. Galvanic corrosion occurs between the copper fouling and the barrel. Copper solvent only reveals what is underneath once the copper is gone. That's why it's important to stay on top of copper fouling.....the longer it sets with it, the worse the corrosion.

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This makes good sense, and possibly the carbon laying between the steel and copper layers might add to the corrosion too. I did some quick research and found this article: http://www.worldstainless.org/Files/...h_Other_EN.pdf

See page 12 regarding using copper fittings on Stainless Steel pipes and tell me (us) what your thinking is. I'm no metallurgist so I'm genuinely interested. I've not done my best to rid my barrels of copper during each cleaning, so I may be missing the boat by no doing so. I do use a camera to look inside so I am able to confirm my cleaning methods will get it all.

The chart is fairly vague and I'm no plumber, but I do know that copper fittings and such used in plumbing are not the same alloy used in bullet jackets.

My comment on not leaving it in for longer than 15 min is based simply what it says on the bottle. I tend to follow the instructions. If it says not to leave it in longer than 15 min, I will not.
I am no metallurgist or chemist, so I do not know what will and will not harm a barrel on the chemical side.
Still waiting for the KG12 I ordered to come in. If it does not work, I will plug the bore and fill it with the sweets.

Lilja Barrels Answer.

Q. What does Lilja Rifle Barrels think of the use of bore solvents with ammonia?

A. While we're aware of "bad press" associated with the use of cleaners with
ammonia as part of the solution, we have never seen any damage in one of our barrels
caused by the use of ammonia. The rumor is that copper-removing cleaners with ammonia
will pit and damage the interior surface of a barrel. Ammonia is very effective as a
copper remover. We use solvents, such as Butch's Bore Shine, to remove copper during
the break-in. We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again,
I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in
commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes
examination with our borescope.

^ My findings...exactly.

Interesting posting. I learn something every time I come here!:thumb:

me too

The KG-12 showed up friday. It says it has no ammonia, but it kinda smells ammonia like. Maybe it is just another chemical that smells like it.
I wet a patch and work it through the bore a few times, wet it again and work it through the bore a few times then let it soak for a couple min. I push a clean patch through the bore. No blue color or any color other than the yellow color of the solution. It said it will not turn blue because it does not have ammonia in it.
I inspect with my camera. It is actually starting to dissolve some of it. The copper that was in the grooves was starting to fade, but there was still the big globs on the lands. I repeat the procedure a couple more times and it is slowly working, the globs were shrinking, but I had some things I was needing to do. I said hell with it, stuck a ear plug in the muzzle, put it muzzle down in a bucket and fill the bore with this stuff.
I let it soak for a couple hours. I pull the earplug out then push a clean patch down the bore. I inspect it with my camera and the copper is GONE. Not a trace anywhere. All the big globs of it and all the galling were gone. Holy cow, I could not believe it. I run a couple patches of hoppes down the bore just to clean out any residue of the KG12 (just in case).
This morning I give the bore a treatment with some JB bore paste to try and help smooth things up. Everything looks good on the bore cam.
I took it to the range this afternoon and did something I do not usually do. I shot a box of 20 rounds of steel jacket ammo through it. I typically avoid steel jacket bullets/ammo like the plague. But I felt like the slightly harder steel jacket might help smooth out any remaining burs, and might have a much smaller chance of sticking to the bore like copper did.
Accuracy sucked (naturally, like all cheap steel cased ammo does). I get home and clean. I inspect the bore and find no surprises. No buildup or galling. I give it another treatment of JB bore paste, and that is where I am at right now.
When I get some time again, I plan on shooting some slightly better copper jacket ammo through it (better than the cheap S&B I used for the first time). After that, if everything goes ok and no galling, I will switch to handloading.

I will say I was impressed with the KG-12. I would highly recommend it to anyone who has a lot of copper in their bore.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1078144092?pid=144092

Wipe out is the easiest thing I have found to remove copper fouling. You might have to do 3 cleaning and I like to let it sit over night but it will cone right out for you, Actually your pictures don't look that bad to me. Hard vitrified carbon will really challenge your cleaning skills. And products.

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Hard vitrified carbon will really challenge your cleaning skills. And products.

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For sure! Copper is easy compared to carbon. Wipe Out is the best I have ever used for copper. All I have used for several years.

I would not be wasting my time with that barrel. If it was a Select Match it is supposed to be lapped. Those chatter marks show it was not. Send it back

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Originally Posted by tomme boy

I would not be wasting my time with that barrel. If it was a Select Match it is supposed to be lapped. Those chatter marks show it was not. Send it back

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Not as easy as that. This is not a savage, and not a pre-fit I can just take off and send back. It is a custom one off build. The barrel was purchased as a blank, by the gunsmith that built the rifle. It was then cut/contoured, threaded, chambered and installed by the gunsmith. Removal would require tools I do not have.
I can not remember if it was a select match or not. I know it is chrome molly and not stainless. I was a little disappointed when I found that out, as I thought/assumed all shilen barrels were SS, turns out they are not, and because I did not specify, while outlining the build, CM is what I got.
I too was surprised at the tool marks in the barrel, as I thought the hand lapping would have removed those, but I guess not. It does not look much different than a douglas barrel I have on another rifle.

Judging a barrel by the way it looks on the inside is no indicator of how it's gonna shoot in reality.

lol. true. if it were Savage would have been in trouble accuracy wise a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Judging a barrel by the way it looks on the inside is no indicator of how it's gonna shoot in reality.

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Exactly. The douglas barrel I mentioned looks pretty crappy on the inside, but it shoots great. I have a DMPS G2 and the inside of it looks crappy, but it also shoots great.
That's why I wanted to remove the copper buildup and continue to shoot it and keep it cleaned out until it smooths out. It might end up being a great shooter.
I ordered some PPU "match". Going to give it a try this weekend if time permits. While not a round I would expect to win a actual match with, it should do better than the cheaper S&B I did use, as well as the steel jacket I shot last weekend. There are very limited choices for high quality match ammo for this caliber. I plan on reloading for it after this.

I was able to run a box of the PPU match through it yesterday afternoon.
Got home, cleaned and inspected it with the bore scope. No galling or excessive copper. There was just a slight hint of some near the muzzle, but it is what I would call normal.
So hopefully the barrel has smoothed out and I hope to not have any more issues.

Such great timing for this post...My father gave me a 40+ year old BSA .243 he picked up cheap at auction. With my cheap new Teslong borescope I could tell that it might not have been cleaned in all those 40 years. I tried several times to clean it with Bore Tech C4 and Eliminator and kept making baby steps with it. Yesterday I plugged up the barrel and filled it with C4. This morning I dumped it and the liquid was a nasty brown color. 6 patches in a row came out black. I would say 80+% of the carbon is gone only to expose a *lot* of copper streaking. I may try filling it with the Eliminator or Sweets next...

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Originally Posted by celltech

Such great timing for this post...My father gave me a 40+ year old BSA .243 he picked up cheap at auction. With my cheap new Teslong borescope I could tell that it might not have been cleaned in all those 40 years. I tried several times to clean it with Bore Tech C4 and Eliminator and kept making baby steps with it. Yesterday I plugged up the barrel and filled it with C4. This morning I dumped it and the liquid was a nasty brown color. 6 patches in a row came out black. I would say 80+% of the carbon is gone only to expose a *lot* of copper streaking. I may try filling it with the Eliminator or Sweets next...

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I would try a bottle of that KG-12. I was really impressed with it. If the copper fouling is bad, plug the bore and fill it with it.

Yep, KG12 gets my vote. I tried 4 or 5 different solvents for getting copper out of my 12BVSS. None worked very well. Even soaking the thing overnight with Sweets and then again with ammonia cleaner. Best of them next to KG12 was Tactical Advantage, but, it still did not do as well or fast as KG12. And KG12 works fast. Swab, wait a couple minutes, wipe. Repeat until clear. Less than an hour. Never needed to soak it.

As for the custom barrel I would suspect it was the initial smoothing of the chamber reamer marks. Krieger contends that the throat machining marks cause the copper jacket to be turned into a kinda plasma that is blown down the barrel where it hits cooler steel and adheres to the bore. Which is about where yours was fouled.

PS some people think KG12 doesn't work cause it doesn't turn the patches blue. Since it is not ammonia it never will but it does eat copper. I could put a drop in the muzzle area and watch it dissolve the copper.

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Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

Not as easy as that. This is not a savage, and not a pre-fit I can just take off and send back. It is a custom one off build. The barrel was purchased as a blank, by the gunsmith that built the rifle. It was then cut/contoured, threaded, chambered and installed by the gunsmith. Removal would require tools I do not have.
I can not remember if it was a select match or not. I know it is chrome molly and not stainless. I was a little disappointed when I found that out, as I thought/assumed all shilen barrels were SS, turns out they are not, and because I did not specify, while outlining the build, CM is what I got.
I too was surprised at the tool marks in the barrel, as I thought the hand lapping would have removed those, but I guess not. It does not look much different than a douglas barrel I have on another rifle.

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Given the more detail you've provided, I have another suggestion. Get some VFG pellets in the intensive grade, along with a mandrel. I use that with some bore polish to lap the barrel clean of copper and carbon. Works great and will help keep the buildup clear.

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Originally Posted by Texas10

Given the more detail you've provided, I have another suggestion. Get some VFG pellets in the intensive grade, along with a mandrel. I use that with some bore polish to lap the barrel clean of copper and carbon. Works great and will help keep the buildup clear.

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I have the standard VFG pellets and mandrels for 30, 22, and 6.5. I use them with the JB bore paste. While they work perfectly for regular copper fouling, they did not do anything for the stuff that was in there in the first post. (trust me, I tried till my arm was tired).
It seems to have straightened itself out and I have not had this issue since.

Sweets states it should remain in the bore no longer than 15 minutes at a time or yu run the risk of pitting the bore.
In my shop that is all I will go.
Is there something you know that I do not?
I am a Gunsmith but always open to others ideas.
I wonder if a bore full of KROIL soaking would not possibly creep under the fouling may help?
I use Shelin and have not had any issues to date, hope they make it right with you.

Kg12 is all i will ever use. I cleaned a bad fouled 22-250 factory gun and a 257 rob er shaw during break in. Wipes clean and easy.

I know someone with a HiPoint 9mm carbine. Shoots nice tight groups with a variety of handloaded ammo. I looked down the barrel one day after he cleaned it. The barrel looks like someone rifled it with a brick.

If ammonia is what removes the copper and will not damage the barrel, why not use straight ammonia, regular household cleaning ammonia?

Bill

I really hope someone that knows about metals and chemicals can answer that, cause that's what I was thinking too
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why not use straight ammonia

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Perhaps the same reason you don't use pure hydrochloric acid the same way you use the diluted form muriatic acid?

I'm a Sweets user if need be. Several years back I found a small
jug of 30 percent ammonia industrial floor stripper. I think most
ammonia cleaners you buy in the store are at 10 to 15 percent
max. I did a test with shelf brand Ajax ammonia wax stripper.
first patching I got a light greenish color. Followed up with Sweets
gave a much deeper bluish green. That just tells me the need for
higher concentrations of ammonia (a gas) to get the job done
quicker.